The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
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My apologies. To sum up what your thread relates to. When a person reaches the stage of faultlessly, without slip perfectly obeying to the letter each and every applicable commandment/law that now exists they can say they have reached entire sanctification. That's the yardstick. Then, they would never have to tell God they are sorry for anything, of thought, word, or deed. They would never have to feel bad about anything at all, for they would be leading a perfect life.
@uncle silas
Thank you that is my understanding, which I do not wish to debate with you as my thoughts and scriptures are throughout the thread.
Thank you that is my understanding, which I do not wish to debate with you as my thoughts and scriptures are throughout the thread.
Thank you Mark, you always ask such good questions on the forum. In order to take those scriptures you are referring to within their context, and which I entirely agree with you are speaking of being baptized into Him, born again, but would add that they are describing a person walking in the Spirit, being freed from the influence of the flesh, I give the following to consider, to construct a framework for interpretation.
As with natural laws that God has ordered to run creation, there are likewise spiritual laws that are universal and eternal when it comes to our relationship with God and what His desire is for man. After all, He never changes. He shows us with examples in scripture for our benefit and which we can check that we have not veered from the correct pathway as there are many obstacles from our enemy on our way to perfection which He ordains.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:43-48)
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:1-2)
We see from the OT that the story of the children of Israel is a guide for us as we are called by God to journey into the promised land (entire sanctification). Those who refuse this understanding have no answer for why there are still enemies in the promised land. There are two sea/river crossings, and the first is where our enemies are destroyed.
This I consider to be the first encounter with God where the enemy of spiritual ignorance is deleted and our spirits are awakened tot he things of God.
Then we have the journey of the disciples, who were called by Jesus and began to follow Him as His disciples which I believe correlates to the OT example. They became disciples but they stumbled and fell constantly and argued amongst themselves and did not understand Jesus at all, culminating in the great desertion of them all when the time for the arrest came.
They were gathered however, in fear when Jesus appeared post resurrection and breathed the Holy Spirit on them. This I believe correlates to what the ECF call Illumination, whereby the followers of Him are given great spiritual insight, followed by the baptism of the Spirit in which they were truly transformed, so much so that an occasion where Peter fell into sin again, is recorded for us and also Paul himself when he insisted in going to Jerusalem despite the leadings of the Spirit. They were both restored however.
Then we have the teachings of the ECF on the subject where they lay out the three stages of spiritual development, whereby a man goes through much testing, again as a disciple, becoming illumined and then at last, Theosis or union with Christ, at the end but yet at the beginning of his walk in the Spirit where the flesh is crucified or rather, the event which happened on the cross is put into action because the man has come to the end of himself, and that great level of repentance, where he is done with his previous walk of failure, is enough to bring forth the entire sanctification of himself.
This was the central teaching from the apostolic tradition which has been nearly lost to the west and now to the east also, as they are sadly repeating the error of gradual sanctification.
I will post the whole of Romans 6 to add further evidence, which I ask that you read again with an open mind to what I have said so far:
Romans 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
There is also Nicodemus who I believe was already a disciple of Christ when he came to Him at night, to hide the fact as he had not come to terms with his encounter with the living God yet and was yet in his flesh or carnality . Jesus said that he must be born again which the western church unanimously says Jesus is introducing him to the gospel but I disagree and it does not fit into the ECF understanding either.
So there we have it so far but now I can add that the synergy the ECF taught was about the sacrifice we must make when the Holy Spirit convicts us as believers that walking in the flesh is not acceptable. Unless one has come to this point there will most likely be denial that it exists. This is not works, this is co-operation with the Spirit in consenting to the putting our old man to death.
If we believe that our first encounter with Christ means that we are already crucified (at odds with our actual walk) then we will balk at the idea that it comes later. This is the truth which I believe God has given me.
Lizbeth, I agree that there are times in our initial walk when we feel that we are taken over by the Spirit to do His work. But as I have said in my response to Mark that it is supposed to be all of the time otherwise we are not walking in the Spirit but still the flesh ie it is not crucified, but God has the answer!
I wasn't denying that, although I am still seeking the Lord for understanding. If someone was walking in the Spirit for a season and now no longer is at this time, does that mean their flesh is still crucified in the way that you are talking about.....or is it only crucified at those times when they are walking in the Spirit?
Just want to mull some thing over out loud here sister. "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven..." To my understanding from scripture, our old man HAS been crucified as far as heaven is concerned, but our goal is to apprehend this and walk in it on earth. Putting off the old man and putting on the new. "Reckoning" the old man dead. Times when that is happening we are tasting the powers of the world to come. I think this "tasting the powers of the world to come" is true whether someone is tasting those powers intermittently or has entered into it in a permanent way (assuming that is realistic or possible, or even whether it is God's explicit will and calling for everyone, which I personally just don't know how to understand it all yet).
It comes to mind where Solomon wrote several times in the Song of Solomon that we must not arouse or awaken love until He so desires. I have always heard it as an urgent plea, but didn't understand it. Those times when we are being "possessed of the Lord" (bridal allegory), it seems from Solomon's writing, that it is at the will of the Lord, not something to seek and chase after in itself, although we should be ready for Him at all times. Book of Esther seems to agree with that....the King calling for Esther when he willed (except that one time she risked her life to see the King unbidden, because of a dire situation....which might be saying something.) From what I've seen, chasing experiences leads to a snare and a counterfeit, because that is a form of idolatry. (I'm just discussing things generally, not accusing anyone or assuming anything at all, but I believe this is a valid caution in a general sense.) We are seeking God's will to be done on earth, we are seeking answers to prayer, and then the Lord responds by "working" when and how He wills, whether to work in our life in answer to prayer, or in the lives of others through our vessel (we have this treasure in our jars of clay that the excellency may be of God and not of us).
I am not experienced enough yet to know that for sure. I tend towards thinking that it is only in crucified flesh that we are walking in the Spirit but I am open to correction. My flesh seems to be alive and well atm.
Agreed that it has happened but we need to apprehend it. I think it is a taste of the earthly manifestation of it. His will being done on earth as it is in heaven meaning now.
That is something to think about. I do not believe that man can attain it when He chooses. He called the disciples when He chose to. It says that the light enlightens every man that comes in to the world, but at His timing - for everyone. The event that brings the pathway to holiness, is orchestrated by Him and has always involved suffering. The key seems to be acceptance of the suffering as His will.
Indeed, and it is never our glory but His. But we must factor in the devil and his wiles to delay or stop it happening.
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I would rather think that it was a 'mountain top' experience, in which one is full of emotion and consider that state to be of sinlessness, than actual ES. though Walking in the Spirit is most of all a spiritual experience though our emotions will be touched.
To whom is this addressed, those who are crucified in Christ (in Theosis), or those who are following Christ, but not crucified yet (not in Theosis)?
Much love!
Blessings in Christ Jesus marks. 5 Minutes is a glimps of what is possible. And oh what a glimps it is. What is not being discussed here is the purpose of walking in The Spirit. It is not for us, even though there is no sin there. It is for others. It is for gathering for The Kingdom. This is The Lord's will. That all might be saved and come into the knowledge of The Lord.(Truth) Jesus is Lord!
As he is writing to believers in Rome, and not to a specific church I would say that he is writing to those not yet having arrived and I feel that he is an apostle to this teaching going from church to church. After Pentecost, the Jews returning home brought the good news with them to all over the area.
He says '22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God' which I understand to mean IF you are made free from sin.
I would say it is more for the love of the Father who wants to have His children fully united with Him. After all He could cause a revival at any time ie His power come down to earth.
Blessings in Christ Jesus Hepzibah. His Power and Authority is already here.(on earth).
Give the devil nothing, and he will have nothing. He has no power over those who love.
5 minutes is the first step of the walk in the way. The next 5 minutes is the second step in the Way. And if we can walk in the Spirit by faith for 5 minutes' time, let us continue another 5 minutes, and another half hour, and another day. And when we realize we've fallen back into a fleshy mind, a walk according to flesh, then let us believe again, and return to the Way.
Holiness is the purpose, that is, living according to God's purpose for me. Sin is disruption of the path we are to follow, a path of works planned long ago by God, for us to walk in, so that His purposes are fulfilled through us.
The light bulb shines for others to see, but the bulb itself is filled with light.
I like to use 5 minutes to challenge those who think that they cannot live according to this word, "let us also walk in the Spirit", something we ourselves do, active voice, contrasted to the passive voice, which would mean God was making it happen.
But we are called to walk in the Spirit, for us to do. I believe God empowers us to fulfill His word, if we will believe, we can do so.
Much love!
I've read through this post a couple of times, and I want to go back and comment on some things, but first though, I'm not seeing what I was hoping for, some Scripture that tells me about this "first encounter with Christ", and how it begins a spiritual process by which we eventually, hopefully, become reborn.
Acts 2:41 KJV
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
So for instance, these people, where do I find teaching that these were not actually baptizd into Jesus Christ's death, and risen again with Him, dead to sin?
And what is the Scripture that gives us teaching about this first baptism, and what it accomplishes, if it's not the "one baptism" Paul cites in Ephesians 4?
This is what I'm looking for Scripture concerning. How do our dead-in-sin fleshy souls "awaken to the things of God" apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit? How can we have relationship with God without the forgiveness of sins, and justification (being rendered righteous)?
Much love!
I understand these were written for our examples. I've heard a number of different interpretations/applications of the Israelite journey from Egypt into the promised land. Each of them have left me with questions of why it would mean what they've said, and why these interpretations often seem to contradict NT teaching.
I remember once doing a study through Ruth. I discovered that just about every part of the story served to illustrate some truth from the NT, primarily from Paul's letters. I was fascinated! I look for that kind of harmony in this sort of pursuit, not that our interpretations from the OT histories would force us to not use the plain teachings of the NT passages, rather, that they will support and illustrate the NT passages.
In your interpretation above, I'd be quick to point out, even as you've said, crossing the Red Sea destroyed their captors, but not their enemies, they would have to defeat enemy after enemy, both before and in the promised land.
Some interpret the Red Sea as our conversion, and the Jordan river our Theosis. Or our baptism in the Holy Spirit. Or our actual conversion.
Some have said that every Christian begins in a wilderness walk. Some have said that most Christians die there, losing their salvation. I've heard so many interpretations.
Which is the correct understanding? The right interpretation? And how can we know? I feel like we, for the most part, myself included, reach certain understandings from the NT, and look back on these histories and see those places were we feel our interpretation is reflected. Having seen such things, should we use that to support our views?
So that, one person sees conversion/salvation in the application of blood in faith that it will save them to correspond to rebirth. That sure makes sense on the face of it. Knowing little more than that we are going to perish, but the blood of the sacrifice will save us.
How would I argue against that? It fits. But is that what is meant? Does this mean that every Christian will subsequently have two water crossings, to be interpreted somehow?
What I'm looking for is Biblical authority, that the Bible would teach me such things. And I do find that, only, others find much different things. So I always return to the Bible for the answer.
Again, how does this happen aside from regeneration? Is this an example "Spirit comes upon them"? Something else?
I'd have a difficult time parsing my life accordingly. To me these come over and over, deeper and deeper, in the process of maturing. And that walking in the Spirit cannot be defined according to "how long does it last". It didn't remain with me, it didn't remain with you. If the only people who are reborn are those in Theosis, then what of us? We were saved and lost. But I don't believe that for a moment!
Why are those who are crucified in Christ admonished to reckon themselves dead to sin and alive to God? Wouldn't that be their state? How could you miss it?
Why are those who are crucified with Christ admonished to not yield their members as instruments of unrighteousness? Why would they ever do that in Theosis?
But if we are crucified in Christ, but our corrupt flesh remains for us to deal with, even though it's power has been destroyed, then these admonitions are exactly on target. We are to ignore what seems to be true of our flesh, that it still has power, and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin, as the first step in denying sin and walking in righteousness. If you think you cannot, you will not. So God tells us, first, know that you can. And here is how you do it.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
All the born again are "made free from sin", as obviously the Apostle is not talking to the Muslims.
This one concept... "made free from sin", always gets spun and twisted into a fist fight because most believers hear "made free from sin", and then they think.........."then why do i want to do bad stuff, and why did i ".
Here is the simplicity of it, and Reader if you can grab this... you are going to find the power of of the Blood of Jesus. as your deliverance working for you.
How are you made free from sin?
its not by you trying to be good.......its by Jesus who has become your "sin bearer", and your "one time eternal sacrifice for sin".
See that?
That is to have become Born again, and exist where SIN is not a part of the Spiritual Reality.
Where is that?
Its in the Kingdom of God, and all the born again, exist there......... while you are down here, trying to understand what that means, and to understand it, you have "worked out your Salvation".
Reader, .. Salvation, is all Spiritual and that means you have to SEE IT that way by revelation.
If you read Romans 4:8 you'll read that Paul says that God does not charge the born again, with sin.
Why not?
Because of 2 reasons...
1.) Jesus is your eternal sacrifice who has BECOME YOUR SIN.
2.) Only the LAW can define your deeds as SIN, and the born again "are not under The Law, but Under Grace"..
So, the born again exist where GRACE has resolved all your sin, and never again will God see it, or judge you for it.
Why Not? Because the FINISHED WORK of Jesus... on THE CROSS......has taken the Law off of you, and has dealt with all your sin, also.
"Jesus is the ONE TIME... ETERNAL SACRIFICE.. for SIN"..
God give you the understanding of what it means to exist as "made free from sin"... as this..
A.) "As JESUS IS........so are the born again.... in THIS World"..
Having an open mind does mean that I have to accept what someone tells me.
You may have had a wonderful experience, and neither I nor anyone else on this thread that has not had that particular
experience will have any idea of what you're speaking of.
I have to go by what the NT teaches and what Jesus taught and what the Apostles taught
and what those that came after them taught.
Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical
However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.source: The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism
Paul exhorts us not to sin in every one of his letters.
Why would he tell us not to do something unless it were possible to do?
If you study church history, you find that he early Christians believed that baptism would not only take away their past sins, but make them sinless in the future. How shocked when they discovered that they still sinned!
The NT does not lie. Jesus does not lie.
Jesus gave us a remedy for sin, this means it's possible to sin even after belief and baptism.
