The baptist minister I quoted wasn't a cessationist, he preached in Africa and saw many healings during his time there as he prayed with people.
The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
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To elucidate. When I was ten my parents took me to a pentecostal church, I was there a few years. It was relentlessly stressed the holy life we must live to a very high degree. After the service I received a Godly smile, a handshake and a relevant scripture verse if it was felt necessary. Being a naive young man I believed the core of the membership lived 24/7 as I saw on Sundays. No word of a lie, I genuinely believed they would all have found sex disdainful and only have partaken of it to produce offspring, and then get it over with as quickly as possible. I sincerely believed all the ''pat statements'' I heard was totally reflected in the lives of the parishoners 24/7.
I am reading a very interesting book called: The Divinization of the Christian, According to the Greek Fathers by Jules Gross.
He has studied in depth, the Eleusinian mystery religions of ancient Greek mythology and those of ancient Egypt, where the idea of the divinization of the elite man is found. It certainly is the same idea, (minus the actual sinlessness) which is no surprise when one understands how Satan counterfeits the things of God to fool mankind.
On this issue in particular, as it disempowers him when a man has reached this level of obedience to God and can no longer be fooled by him. If he cannot destroy the doctrine he will twist it out of shape as what happened in the great Holiness Movement and other revivals when this great doctrine is once more believed. Unfortunately, it has been a long time since.
We only have to read our history books about the great Welsh revival, where miners would spend all of their breaks, having prayer meetings and singing hymns, children would be found on their knees in schoolyards, and people passing churches would be drawn in without being conscious of it.
So to say that the idea came from them, is like refusing to allow a child, when hearing about Noah and his ark, to draw a rainbow because it has been highjacked by wokism. But worse. The idea of a sin soaked man, empowered by the Holy Spirit to partake in the divine nature is right through scripture, once our eyes have been opened.
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That's good then. But does he believe what Paul wrote there? We shouldn't water down or try to justify not doing what scripture instructs. We should never aim lower than we see in God's word...it's the plumbline that we should be seeking to line up with.
Are you referring to Rom ch6? Paul told the phillipians he was not yet perfect. If he fully obeyed the law without slip he would be!
Sin is written about in two different ways in scripture, as nearly all christians would also view sin in two different ways. It is not enough just to read the letter, we must discern the bible as one cohesive whole.
The pharisees of Jesus day liked to give the impression they nigh on faultlessly obeyed the law/did not sin, but Jesus rerserved his harshest words for them. They cleaned only the outside of the cup.
Paul gave an example of why he had to die to the law. The example he gave was one of the TC, he could not obey it, for he could not obey law relating to the inner man, the law no one but he and God need know he broke, he said it brought death/condemnation to him.
Many today excuse what goes on, on the inside. The bible disagrees. I suppose for those who feel they never commit any sin, they feel they have nothing to ever tell God they are sorry for, they act perfectly at all times, even on the inside in relation to obey commands relating to the inner person, commands no one but they and God need know they break
BTW
Do you even try and obey each and every literal command of Christ in the gospels? An honest answer should be given, if you do not commit sin. Personally I've never met anyone who has, even in non cessationist churches
True. That there are counterfeits and perversions of the truth out there both within and without the church is not an argument against the truth, and I often have said so. But it's important to know that those counterfeits and perversions are missing the mark in certain important ways. We need to do better than those false versions and not imitate them.
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Of course and the doctrine of Theosis certainly delivers on that.
The false versions, valued immorality above everything and was the reason for the interest. They believed that man would only become morally perfect in the after life. Just like a lot of believers sadly.
BTW, wouldn't you say the above must include not watering down law to the place we may like to believe we perfectly obey it?
I believe God made a concession for the flesh in a way when He declared the marriage bed to be undefiled. But it should be about love, not lust. As the Lord told Hosea..."Go show your LOVE to your wife again." (People shouldn't bring perversions into the marriage bed or make sex an idol - temperance is a fruit of the Spirit) But when and while one is caught up in the spirit the flesh is subdued and out of the picture as concerns all its natural appetites. I think if we happen to be it the spirit when we are at the point of our death, we will not even notice the body has died, lol....we will just remain in the Spirit and forever be with the Lord.
Actually that leaves me with a question: is being caught up in the Spirit the same as walking in the Spirit?
When you follow after the Spirit you will not commit sin, does that answer your question? However, when you follow after the Spirit will you perfectly obey the letter of the law? Paul told born again christians in the present-not past tense: The letter(of the TC) kills
Lambano
Well-Known Member
No. No, this blessing has not been given to me. Nor has it been experienced by all but a handful on this forum, which is why you're getting a null response. Should I be envious that another was given something that I was not? (Praise to God for His good gifts would be a better response than envy.) Or was the blessing earned?
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Thank you @Lambano . No it was not earned as nothing of the flesh can please God. But I was blessed with severe suffering for my whole life, and abused by all of my family then two marriages as I knew no different. When one sufferers so, the usual platitudes in religion are not enough and reality is needed in order to keep one from falling. He came through for me, and blessed me in high places.
I was talking about Rom 8:1 and what follows from it (which follows on from Romans 7 and is the solution to the battle with sin), as well as other verses which speak to walking in the Spirit....and it is THROUGH the Spirit that we are to mortify the deeds of the flesh:
Gal 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
ok so you are addressing the difference between the old way of the letter and the new way of the Spirit.....and I agree that we are to serve in the new way of the Spirit......which I believe is according to those verses above. And all the Law is fulfilled in the Law of love...love of God and love of neighbour...His love shed abroad in our hearts by His Spirit. The Holy Spirit nudges and guides us according to the conscience of our new/renewed inner man which is informed by the Spirit and been instructed/taught by the word of God. This is why Paul referred elsewhere to "you who are spiritual" when he was telling them to "restore such a one". He was apparently talking to those who were no longer carnal and in the flesh, but were in the spirit and spiritually mature (however one gets to that place).
Here I believe is one place where the OT instructs us to be/walk in the Spirit: "Be STILL and know that I am God".
I don't doubt such experiences....at all. Just that I'm not entirely sure everything is all being understood entirely correctly. We can have experiences and not entirely understand them. I've been trying very hard to sort out what's what and understand.....maybe it's just beyond me right now.
I believe up to now, that we are being led to a deeper and more thorough repentance than most of us have hitherto experienced. And that it involves surrender of our will to God....as Oswald Chambers mentions. And that this is what the "second circumcision" depicts in scripture....crossing the Jordan when it's flood waters are held back all the way to Adam...ie, the will is the throne of our old Adamic nature and we need to let the Lord rule it. Oswald wrote that once that battle has been fought it will never have to be fought again. May I ask, is that your testimony also? (or any others here?)
You didn't answer my question. Do you try and follow all of Christ's literal commands in the gospels? I know a lot of non cessationist churches. They quote the letter of much scripture, and, imply it must be fully complied with. The bible gives us the perfect blueprint for overcoming sin, and not living according to the sinfull nature. However, humans never perfectly follow the manual. It does not mean they do not want to, but in their humanity do not.
Love indeed fulfills the law, if you perfectly without slip obeyed the two greatest commandments you would indeed perfectly without slip obey every commandment.
But where is the bar set where loving others is concerned?
If someone asked to lend from you, would you gladly lend to them without ever expecting anything back?
If someone stole from you, would you offer them more than what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them ?
Do you not invite friends or family home for a meal, but rather the poor, blind, lame and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven?
Do you perfectly without slip, love all those you come into contact with in thought, word or deed, including your enemies, those who may be unkind to you, in sult or persecute you?
It is not loving others to ask of them what you do not ask of yourself. And quoting the random literal letter and implying you perfectly adhere to it is no ones reality. This unfortunately is what many non cessationalists do.
I heard a mnister speak once, he said 85% of evangelicals do not understand the justification/sanctification process. In my experience, and I have much, that figure is probably not far off the mark. I was raised with ''pat sentances''
I know the pristene level the law is set at, I do not water it down for convenience. And please understand, the bible speaks of sin in two different ways
If you asked nearly all christians if you had to be perfect/sinless in your flesh to be saved they would respond ''No'' for they know they are not sinless in their flesh(1John1:8)
However, if you asked the same people if you could live a wanton lifestyle of sin/be a slave to sin in this regard and be saved, they will also respond ''No''(1John3:9)
Being a slave to sin, is leading a life where sin completely dominates your life, that is your lifestyle!
OC talks about giving up the right to ourselves. I think that is pretty apt. I agree about that battle never having to be fought again. It is the battle depicted by John of the Cross in the dark night of the spirit, a terrifying place when you feel as though you are being destroyed. In fact you are but His arms are waiting and it is absolutely worth it as there is nothing in life that can compare with being at one with Him.
@uncle silas
Trying to obey every rule written down is not freedom. It is the burden carried by Christian in Pilgrims Progress.
The walk in the Spirit is obeying Him moment by moment, so living in the present, just by hearing His voice telling you the way to go - to the left or to the right. It is easy (my burden is easy and my yoke light). You do obey each and every rule but not by consciously keeping them in mind.
Trying to obey every rule written down is not freedom. It is the burden carried by Christian in Pilgrims Progress.
The walk in the Spirit is obeying Him moment by moment, so living in the present, just by hearing His voice telling you the way to go - to the left or to the right. It is easy (my burden is easy and my yoke light). You do obey each and every rule but not by consciously keeping them in mind.
Incidentally
After the service at the Pentecostal church, I would go and smoke a cigarette on a wall close by. The looks I got from some of the parishoners made me believe I would go to hell for smoking, let alone all my other imperfections.
Years later I went to hear an internationally known evangelist speak. A few of us went into a side room after the service for prayer with the evangelist. Though the evangelist had never met me before they told me much about my life and confirmed I was baptised in the Holy Spirit. Yet at that time I still smoked. I learnt a valuable lesson that day. God does not lay the demands on you many who go to church do, in order for you to be in a saved state, or to bless you.
Just a friendly word. If you are writing posts to me for the benefit of others, fine. But for me, you are deceived and the truth is not in you, so your posts mean nothing to me I'm afraid. Anyone can make ''pat sentances'' and quote the letter of scripture endlessly, a child can do it. But, being able to quote the letter inside and out does not mean you understand the message contained in the letter. The pharisees were a perfect example of this. They also liked to infer, they nigh on lived sinless lives. Some today like to surpass them
