So true, there is always something....the solution to one problem is often the beginning of another problem (old saying that I heard). Things are more complex than man can handle alone, we sure do need to be led and guided by the Lord and His wisdom.
The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
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I don't know the history of the EO but if it had already "formed" itself into an institution, it would already have been in error in doing that alone. Which leads to more error, like dominos.
This to me is the problem with extra-biblical terminology. It forms concepts in the mind which are usually off the mark, and I believe this is why the bible says we are not to go beyond what is written. The problem with words/concepts like divine and deified is that it is associated with worship. Like pagan rulers elevated themselves to the status of gods, being divine, and demanded worship. (And this is still being done today, often in more subtle ways...even in churches.) We are to bring our thoughts captive as it were to God's word, to the obedience of Christ the Living Word. Our thoughts enclosed as it were in His sheepfold is how I think of it....place of safety for the sheep. I think of Adam & Eve who sought to be like God and went beyond the limits God had ordained for them by eating of the Tree of Knowledge of G&E..
This is why for me I never feel as though I have solid ground to walk on unless I see a teaching or doctrine developed directly from scripture. Too many false teachings/doctrines have been the thoughts and surmisings of men, who then try to back up their thoughts/concepts using isolated verses, rather than coming directly from the scrips and developed from them with the light/illumination of the Lord.
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The fear of the Lord is good...but just fear alone is not. We are meant to set sail on unknown waters trusting the Lord...not just remain tied up in harbours until we have a guarantee that we won't be swept on the rocks of lee shores. By faith we venture forth....yes, sometimes running aground...but the righteous fall seven times and keep going.
There is as much danger as playing it safe as there is in fearlessly venturing into the void. I see NOT setting forth as a "failure to launch" ...a failure to trust and seek and adventure to where faith leads us. If it feels safe and secure...it isn't faith yet.
I see the same problem with those who need to "belong" to a church...thinking there is safety in numbers. But Jesus has nowhere to lay His head in this world. Those who come to Christ do so outside the camp...not just outside of organized religion, but also outside the safety zones we have created for ourselves through fear of the unknown.
Amen, I agree with this. We do learn from our mistakes and grow thereby. We are not to be like the servant with the one talent who wrongly thought God was a harsh taskmaster which kept him from trusting Him enough to risk what he had and "grow wings" (could we say)?
But I don't agree that this applies to the point I'm making. The carnal mind (natural mind of man) is ENMITY with God and can't be trusted. It will always try to justify itself with cherry picked verses. We need something more comprehensive to stand on...the whole counsel of God (His word) and mind of Christ. Which to your point, is a mind of faith/spirit. I'm not saying to apply the carnal mind to God's word.
We have to take into account, scholastic distinctions, which are apologetic in function, and as far as union with God, the terms are used to show, in opposition to other parts of the church, that this union available to all, there is no hierarchy as in Catholicism and Protestantism, (no second class laity) as far as access to the power of God is concerned. It is very noticeable there, that clergy and laity are equal even if they wear different garbs, which I am not approving of btw.
It also denotes a serious calling. In Orthodoxy, it takes three years before one could be admitted to the church, and there is a heightened attention to spiritual warfare.
The idea that deified is associated with worship, is only the result of ignorance to the way that it is used to show that man is to partake in the divine nature, which is thoroughly scriptural, and to be holy as He is holy, as opposed to those who deny that man can be holy in the practical way it is used by the EO.
In the NT they were told to obey the apostolic tradition too which is not mans tradition found in the CC. There was no sola scriptura in the early years, though when it was put together it would not be contradicted by the already teachings that were known. Just a deeper understanding of the same texts.
Me either. This doctrine is found throughout scripture both in old and new. It even says 'partakers in the divine nature' which can be twisted to mean different things to different men. I take the ones nearest the apostles, not waiting till the 16th C.
Agreed, and the rot had really set in during the first century. I am not interested in anything other than how to please God as He has shown in the NT as far as sanctification is concerned. I am not the least interested in how man, in any part of the church has interpreted things.
I am finding that my efforts have not helped a great deal because of some healing to the brain done by trauma, which the Lord has chosen to conceal the full extent of till now by His wisdom.
In doing the things advised I see a huge change already.
Might be useful:
www.patheos.com
Theosis: A Misunderstood Mystical Concept
Theosis comes from the Greek θέωσις and literally means "divine state" — Theo (God, divinity) + osis (state or condition). Think of words like theology
www.patheos.com
I posted something from the Orthodox religion.
You're speaking of orthodoxy.
Orthodoxy does not believe man can become divine...ever.
This would mean that man becomes like God.
I'm using the word divine in this sense:
divine
1 of 3adjective
di·vine də-ˈvīndiviner; divinest
Synonyms of divine
1
religion
a
: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God (see GOD entry 1 sense 1) or a god (see GOD entry 1 sense 2)
divine inspiration
divine love
praying for divine intervention
b
: being a deity
the divine Savior
a divine ruler
c
: directed to a deity
divine worship
Deified means you're becoming like a god.
What do you think it means to BE HOLY?
If you mean that we are to be without sin in thought, word or deed in this life...
then I cannot agree.
John does not agree since he gives instruction on what to do if we sin...
Why would John give instruction to something that could not happen?
1 John 1:8-10
8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Jesus made provision for our sin:
Why would Jesus make provision for something that could not happen?
John 20:23
23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them;
In the early years the teachings were to convert persons to the Kingdom of God right here on earth.
The early Fathers spoke about doing good works.
Some spoke of becoming like God....I don't know enough to state what they meant...
They probably meant becoming more godly.
Could you post some links that could be helpful?
I don't believe in entire sanctification.
Wesley believed this and I attended a Nazarene church for years.
I do believe they've abandoned this idea and even when I was attending they really didn't teach this outright.
I'm not going to do verse tennis.
I could post many verse that prove man will always sin...,and this is why provision has been made...
by Jesus Himself.
The above sounds like a conflict.
You say the reality of the 3 stages to sinlessness...
but then say that it does not mean we cannot sin again.
It was an idea that came and went.
Reformed theology comes and goes because it's not sustainable.
The fact that it did not last is a sign that it was not correct.
Well H, I guess we can't agree.
We're NEVER free from the "flesh".
Because we're never free from what causes us to sin....
our sin nature.
When we become born again our sin nature remains but is subdued, put under submission, buried somewhat.
But it never totally disappears otherwise, indeed, we would stop sinning.
If you want to go over 1 John, I'm willing.
And who do YOU know that never sins?
The early fathers meant that WATER BAPTISM saves.
All the Early Fathers wrote about was THE WATERS and how the water washed away sins.
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” —Didache 7:1 Date: 70 A.D.
“Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Ps. 1:3–6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, ‘Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.’ Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls” —Barnabas, Letter of Barnabas 11:1–10 Date: 74 A.D.
“I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is” —Hermas, The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 Date: 80 A.D.
“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven”—Justin Martr, First Apology 61 Date: 151 A.D.
source: Church Fathers on Baptism
ok, where it says to be "partakers of the divine nature" is so beautifully put. Because to my mind it is not applying the word divine to us but to God. It isn't saying we ourselves become "divine" in the sense that God Himself is divine in His own right. But partaking of His divine nature makes us an "image" of God. Our inner man is created after the image of He who created it. Like a reflection of Him.....as sons are the image of their Father. The glory is His, not ours in our own right, but we have His reflected glory, as it were. I think it is not conveying the right idea/concept to say that we ourselves become deified and divine...it's overshooting the mark, so to speak....going too far.
Paul referred in one place to "you who are spiritual" (I consider that he was talking to those who were spiritually mature...he did not address them as divine, but as spiritual)...the divine nature of God is spiritual/heavenly.....so we likewise have imparted to us through His Spirit, His spiritual/heavenly nature...that is the nature of the new man created in His image. New/renewed in scripture is referring to something that has been made spiritual, no longer earthly/carnal. Our new nature is spiritual/heavenly, like the divine nature of God. God IS spirit.
Yes absolutely. I think the problem is that you are just unused to hearing it, a common problem amongst westerners who do not understand the distinction between God's energies and His essence. We never share in His essence. We are in the realm of explaining the mysteries.
Also, there is a distinction between the image of God and the likeness, which we attain through His grace when we are transformed though we never become God and never lose our humanity.
I would have to think really hard about the energies vs. the essence sister and not sure I'm up to it. As far as I know ancient eastern peoples worshiped the "divine" and that is the problem I have with applying that word to humans....it implies that which is to be worshiped. I prefer to confine my thoughts to what scripture says and find it to be sufficient....more than that, it's perfect! Blessings to you.
@GodsGrace
I am not prepared to debate with anyone who has at least done a bit of homework, which you have clearly not done when you say such as the following:
There is no-one that I have heard of that says that once we come to Christ for forgiveness, we will not sin again. That is a gross misrepresentation of the doctrine and shocking to hear it coming from one who has attended a Nazarene church, though I do know that they abandoned the truth a long time ago.
Wesley 's teachings were inconsistent and he was confused about early teachings.
I am not prepared to debate with anyone who has at least done a bit of homework, which you have clearly not done when you say such as the following:
There is no-one that I have heard of that says that once we come to Christ for forgiveness, we will not sin again. That is a gross misrepresentation of the doctrine and shocking to hear it coming from one who has attended a Nazarene church, though I do know that they abandoned the truth a long time ago.
Wesley 's teachings were inconsistent and he was confused about early teachings.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is DEATH
Me. Well previously. As of late the Lord has decided to remove me from that blessings for His own purposes.
Water baptism was administered at the same time as Spirit baptism. It was deification that saves.
"For the Greek patristic tradition, especially in its mystical forms, the final goal and result of this saving knowledge, this forgiveness and this rescue from death was 'deification'. Yet salvation was not merely vivification, but deification" Jaroslav Pelikan, eminent scholar of historical theology.
The early church were very much aware that folk would connect their teachings to ancient eastern people which is why they were so thorough in their explanations of this not being the case.
If we look at verses 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 in 1 John 1:
6, If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.
7, But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin
(BUT)
8, If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
(BUT)
9, If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.
(BUT)
10, If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us
We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness ie walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about 'carnal' or fleshy believers against those who were walking in the Spirit.. In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-
1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.
Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-
1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for forgiveness.
So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin. The letter is to believers and not un-believers as stated previously. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.
Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from ALL sin and come to Christ (again) for forgiveness, then He will be able to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (not just the sin in question please note) So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and HAVE been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.
John goes on in the rest of his epistle to show that those who do carry on in sin (but say they have no further need of cleansing) are NOT in CHRIST. He stresses his point against the Gnostic heresy Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7 and this is the test i.e. as He is righteous so must we be not just in position or as a hope for the future but as a present reality that we must be as Christ, without sin if we are walking in the light.
But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5
My little children these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1
Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not whosoever sinneth not hath not seen Him neither known Him 3:6
He that commiteth sin is of the devil 3:8
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9
Let me end my discussion of 1 John 3:9 with this:
That the word sin in the Greek is the present tense indicative is beyond
dispute. Anybody can check this fact with Bible Works or another such program.
The Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament says, "The present tense
indicates continual, habitual action." The Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in
the New Testament, by Ernest Burton, says, "The present indicative is used of
action in progress in present time." And the Orthodox Study Bible, representing
Greek Orthodox theology says that 1 John 3:9 is literally, "does not keep on
sinning."
The New Bible Commentary states, "If he is born again from above he will
habitually lead the life of a born-again person, in spite of stumbles; if he
continually sins he is of the devil, so that the false teachers were wrong in
saying that sin does not matter. As righteous living characterized the Master,
so it must characterize the servant."
So what John is NOT teaching is:
1. that a born again person cannot sin.
2. that his sin are not real ones
3. that God automatically forgives our sins without confession
4. that God does not see his sins, but rather sees the blood of Christ instead
5. that sins are not imputed to him
6. that the new man does not sin while the old man does sin
7. that all one's sins are already forgiven, past, present, and future
8. that a little sin is ok
What John is saying, throughout his epistle, is that Jesus came to save you
from sin and sinning, and if you have not made a break with the habit of
sinning, you are not even at the beginning. You are not even saved. If you are
genuinely saved, then you no longer knowingly do wrong all the time. That is
the beginning point on the highway of holiness.
6, If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.
7, But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin
(BUT)
8, If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us
(BUT)
9, If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.
(BUT)
10, If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us
We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness ie walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about 'carnal' or fleshy believers against those who were walking in the Spirit.. In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-
1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.
Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-
1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for forgiveness.
So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin. The letter is to believers and not un-believers as stated previously. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.
Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from ALL sin and come to Christ (again) for forgiveness, then He will be able to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (not just the sin in question please note) So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and HAVE been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.
John goes on in the rest of his epistle to show that those who do carry on in sin (but say they have no further need of cleansing) are NOT in CHRIST. He stresses his point against the Gnostic heresy Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7 and this is the test i.e. as He is righteous so must we be not just in position or as a hope for the future but as a present reality that we must be as Christ, without sin if we are walking in the light.
But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5
My little children these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1
Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not whosoever sinneth not hath not seen Him neither known Him 3:6
He that commiteth sin is of the devil 3:8
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9
Let me end my discussion of 1 John 3:9 with this:
That the word sin in the Greek is the present tense indicative is beyond
dispute. Anybody can check this fact with Bible Works or another such program.
The Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament says, "The present tense
indicates continual, habitual action." The Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in
the New Testament, by Ernest Burton, says, "The present indicative is used of
action in progress in present time." And the Orthodox Study Bible, representing
Greek Orthodox theology says that 1 John 3:9 is literally, "does not keep on
sinning."
The New Bible Commentary states, "If he is born again from above he will
habitually lead the life of a born-again person, in spite of stumbles; if he
continually sins he is of the devil, so that the false teachers were wrong in
saying that sin does not matter. As righteous living characterized the Master,
so it must characterize the servant."
So what John is NOT teaching is:
1. that a born again person cannot sin.
2. that his sin are not real ones
3. that God automatically forgives our sins without confession
4. that God does not see his sins, but rather sees the blood of Christ instead
5. that sins are not imputed to him
6. that the new man does not sin while the old man does sin
7. that all one's sins are already forgiven, past, present, and future
8. that a little sin is ok
What John is saying, throughout his epistle, is that Jesus came to save you
from sin and sinning, and if you have not made a break with the habit of
sinning, you are not even at the beginning. You are not even saved. If you are
genuinely saved, then you no longer knowingly do wrong all the time. That is
the beginning point on the highway of holiness.
