The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Johann]

Give it a try-using Scripture references.
Not that I put the man on a pedestal but I do believe Utley is correct in his theology. Though fallible.

Spotted brother @MatthewG.
God bless and shalom to you and family.
J.

 

[MatthewG]

Spotted brother @MatthewG.
God bless and shalom to you and family.
J.

Love you too friend! As well as all of your friends and family, and of our fellow members, even the ignored ones. May the Holy Spirit of God keep you, and you continue to have faith!

 

[GTW27]

What prophet? Christ Jesus is our Prophet, High Priest and King-there's a dearth of prayers-prayers is needed, not prophets.

Indeed, Jesus is our Prophet, High Priest and King.

 

[Johann]

Indeed, Jesus is our Prophet, High Priest and King.

So why the need for prophets?

 

[Johann]

Love you too friend! As well as all of your friends and family, and of our fellow members, even the ignored ones. May the Holy Spirit of God keep you, and you continue to have faith!

I really appreciate these kind words brother.
Johann.

 

[GTW27]

So why the need for prophets?

When I return will I find faith on earth? A true prophet of The Lord could show in word and deed that The Lord does not change, as his words and deeds would not be his own but from He who sends him out in the world. It is The Lord's desire that no soul should perish.

 

[Johann]

When I return will I find faith on earth? A true prophet of The Lord could show in word and deed that The Lord does not change, as his words and deeds would not be his own but from He who sends him out in the world. It is The Lord's desire that no soul should perish.

Now I remember you-are you a universalist, believing ALL would be saved?

 

[GTW27]

Now I remember you-are you a universalist, believing ALL would be saved?

Thank you for the insult Joann. No, many will perish for rejecting Jesus.

 

[Johann]

Thank you for the insult Joann. No, many will perish for rejecting Jesus.

Asking you a question is not insulting you @GTW27.

 

[marks]

It is easy-not the way you explain it though, makes it rather complicated Sister.

I think I've written a dozen posts this morning on this thread only to delete them all, trying to answer this in another more understandable way.

I agree with you, these things are clearly stated, and plainly understood, if you can both recognize and accept the simple statements that are being made.

I've concluded that without a clear understanding of what "this body of sin" is, there will not be understanding about how we reach sanctification. Actually I think there are a number of things like that. Israel and the Church. Baptism into Christ. Regeneration. Without having the same understanding of these things, I don't think we can reach a clear understanding of sanctification.

Sin is still resident in every believer's physical body and this truth explains the ongoing struggle every believer experiences with sin.

Exactly what the the Bible says, brother! cPTSD puts this on clear display. The brain is corrupted by sin, our sins, the sins of others, all the way back to Adam's sin. Sin changed Adam's perceptions and understandings. "I hid because I was naked." This new awareness of sin changed Adam, the way he thought, how his mind worked, how he perceived God, and himself.

In cPTSD we come to understand how damage to the cerebral cortex affects our decision making. Damage to the Ventrilmedial Prefrontal Cortex affects our emotional control, risk assessment, morality assessment, the amygdala in it's fuctions of memory and emotion and decision making. I could go on and on about this part of the brain, that part, how faulty world views, self perceptions, obsessions and compulsions, destructiove emotional states, all can become ingrained in the very structure of the brain. Medical science has much to say about all this, I find it fascinating and horrifying all at the same time.

But what I really find is this huge example of exactly the things the Scriptures teach, even in this kind of detail.

1 Peter 1:13-14 KJV
13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

Not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts.

Fashioning here is from a word from which we derives schematic. The same word is used here:

Romans 12:2 KJV
2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Fashioning yourself according to your former lusts . . . we know that if we choose sin, as often as we do, our brains form neurological pathways that support that choice. We are imprinting in our minds the pattern of our lusts. Fashioning ourselves.

Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. That schematic of the brain has to be changed.

Galatians 2:17-18 KJV
17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Same thing here. We make choices to sin, which bring corruption into the brain in the form of new dendrites intended to receive dopamine in reward of these behaviors. And that will produce the feeling of desire, craving, compulsion, if these behaviors are denied, depending on the strength of the biological system.

I'd like to ask you, where it says in verse 7,

Romans 6:5-7 KJV
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I've noticed that "freed" here is translated from dikaioo, for a literal reading of "the one who has died is justified away from sin". I think "freed from sin" is the meaning here, but I also think that "justified away from sin" is the manner in which it happens.

That being co-crucified and then raised with Christ renders us righteous by virtue of a new creation, which is our justification - righteous-making -

Colossians 3:1-5 LITV
1) If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God;
2) mind the things above, not the things on the earth.
3) For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
4) Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory.
5) Then put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil lust, and covetousness, which is idolatry;

We've died, been raised, and seated in heaven in Christ.

@Hepzibah speaks of Christ not being able to live in someone who commits sin, but I think the reality is totally different from that. It's not about Him living in me as I still sin, it's about me living in Him in Whom is no sin.

Being "righteous-ized" away from sin means to be recreated in righteousness so that I'm no longer the sinner. Which is what Paul says in Romans 7, "Therefore it is no more I, but sin that lives in me." "put to death your members that are on the earth."

So my question for you my learned brother, is this the right idea on that passage, "the one who has died is freed from sin"?

What are your thoughts here?

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I think I've written a dozen posts this morning on this thread only to delete them all, trying to answer this in another more understandable way.

I agree with you, these things are clearly stated, and plainly understood, if you can both recognize and accept the simple statements that are being made.

I've concluded that without a clear understanding of what "this body of sin" is, there will not be understanding about how we reach sanctification. Actually I think there are a number of things like that. Israel and the Church. Baptism into Christ. Regeneration. Without having the same understanding of these things, I don't think we can reach a clear understanding of sanctification.


Exactly what the the Bible says, brother! cPTSD puts this on clear display. The brain is corrupted by sin, our sins, the sins of others, all the way back to Adam's sin. Sin changed Adam's perceptions and understandings. "I hid because I was naked." This new awareness of sin changed Adam, the way he thought, how his mind worked, how he perceived God, and himself.

In cPTSD we come to understand how damage to the cerebral cortex affects our decision making. Damage to the Ventrilmedial Prefrontal Cortex affects our emotional control, risk assessment, morality assessment, the amygdala in it's fuctions of memory and emotion and decision making. I could go on and on about this part of the brain, that part, how faulty world views, self perceptions, obsessions and compulsions, destructiove emotional states, all can become ingrained in the very structure of the brain. Medical science has much to say about all this, I find it fascinating and horrifying all at the same time.

But what I really find is this huge example of exactly the things the Scriptures teach, even in this kind of detail.

1 Peter 1:13-14 KJV
13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

Not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts.

Fashioning here is from a word from which we derives schematic. The same word is used here:

Romans 12:2 KJV
2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Fashioning yourself according to your former lusts . . . we know that if we choose sin, as often as we do, our brains form neurological pathways that support that choice. We are imprinting in our minds the pattern of our lusts. Fashioning ourselves.

Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. That schematic of the brain has to be changed.

Galatians 2:17-18 KJV
17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Same thing here. We make choices to sin, which bring corruption into the brain in the form of new dendrites intended to receive dopamine in reward of these behaviors. And that will produce the feeling of desire, craving, compulsion, if these behaviors are denied, depending on the strength of the biological system.

I'd like to ask you, where it says in verse 7,

Romans 6:5-7 KJV
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I've noticed that "freed" here is translated from dikaioo, for a literal reading of "the one who has died is justified away from sin". I think "freed from sin" is the meaning here, but I also think that "justified away from sin" is the manner in which it happens.

That being co-crucified and then raised with Christ renders us righteous by virtue of a new creation, which is our justification - righteous-making -

Colossians 3:1-5 LITV
1) If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God;
2) mind the things above, not the things on the earth.
3) For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
4) Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory.
5) Then put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil lust, and covetousness, which is idolatry;

We've died, been raised, and seated in heaven in Christ.

@Hepzibah speaks of Christ not being able to live in someone who commits sin, but I think the reality is totally different from that. It's not about Him living in me as I still sin, it's about me living in Him in Whom is no sin.

Being "righteous-ized" away from sin means to be recreated in righteousness so that I'm no longer the sinner. Which is what Paul says in Romans 7, "Therefore it is no more I, but sin that lives in me." "put to death your members that are on the earth."

So my question for you my learned brother, is this the right idea on that passage, "the one who has died is freed from sin"?

What are your thoughts here?

Much love!

Give me some time @marks-will get back to you.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely correct, and just to clarify, I don't post on Facebook. This was a friend's request on WhatsApp, and the last three days have been like hell on earth. I had no idea he was Pentecostal, with prophetic utterances, tithing, healing, signs, and miracles. He really tried to convince me that I’m off the beaten path and need to tithe and be in a church building. I can promise you this: if he had been at my house, he would have gotten the beating of his life. I'm not so spiritual that I'm of no earthly good, and I admit that I sometimes miss the mark and give in to the flesh—if only momentarily.

Satan's world with lots of deceivers, wolves in sheep' clothing.

Maybe I should join the Catholic Church.
J.

You could join the CC.
I wonder how it is there in Durban. Seems to be different in different countries.
You have some good Bishops there that oppose this Pope.
BUT,,,,there's no perfect church!
Something will be lacking in each one.

However, no one will tell you that you're not saved in that church.
It sees life as a path, a percorso, that is to be taken/walked/lived.
They have some doctrine that I just don't understand how they got it
(well actually I do, I just don't agree with it)...
other than that, it's not a bad church.
Am just waiting for this Pope to be changed.

 

[Johann]

You could join the CC.
I wonder how it is there in Durban. Seems to be different in different countries.
You have some good Bishops there that oppose this Pope.
BUT,,,,there's no perfect church!
Something will be lacking in each one.

However, no one will tell you that you're not saved in that church.
It sees life as a path, a percorso, that is to be taken/walked/lived.
They have some doctrine that I just don't understand how they got it
(well actually I do, I just don't agree with it)...
other than that, it's not a bad church.
Am just waiting for this Pope to be changed.

We have St. Joseph CC church, a 5 minute walk, problem is I need to get "baptized" again and I think you know why.
No partaking of the Eucharist, no practical assistance.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

We have St. Joseph CC church, a 5 minute walk, problem is I need to get "baptized" again and I think you know why.
No partaking of the Eucharist, no practical assistance.

J.

If you were baptized in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit (with water), your baptism is accepted.
The CC believes baptism is real and not a symbol....
Baptism is baptism.

You would have to join a RCIA group for about a year and then you'd be receiving first communion and confirmation.
I fear you'd run into the same problems I have with that church.
Plus, I don't think you're really considering this.

 

[Johann]

If you were baptized in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit (with water), your baptism is accepted.
The CC believes baptism is real and not a symbol....
Baptism is baptism.

You would have to join a RCIA group for about a year and then you'd be receiving first communion and confirmation.
I fear you'd run into the same problems I have with that church.
Plus, I don't think you're really considering this

 

[GodsGrace]

The Destruction of the Old Man (Romans 6:6): The debate around the Greek verb καταργέω (to destroy or render powerless) hinges on the extent of the old man's destruction. While the text suggests a decisive break with the power of sin, the verb allows for the interpretation that sin’s dominion is broken, not necessarily its total annihilation.

The grammar and morphology reflect a critical theological point: the aorist and perfect tenses used to describe the crucifixion of the "old man" signal a completed action with lasting results, but not necessarily a complete eradication of sin from human experience. The ongoing aspect of taking up the cross and following Christ (Luke 9:23) underscores the daily reality of living in the tension between the decisive act of crucifixion with Christ and the continuous process of discipleship and sanctification.

The verbs associated with "losing one's life" highlight the need for an initial, decisive surrender but also imply the ongoing work of following Christ. This resonates with the concept of the "dark night" or spiritual crisis where one consents to the death of self and finds life in Christ.

I read Wuest where he said the sinful nature/flesh/sarx was somehow "surgically removed" from the believer-would you agree?

Missed the discussion between you and the other member.
Feel like it's too late to join now....
just want to say that I agree with you.
Our sin nature is put under submission - this is how I like to explain it.
It does not die. If it did, we'd have to explain exactly what makes us continue to sin.

I also think the other member believes in sinless perfection...
this is not taught in the OT or the NT.


@Hepzibah
(you're the other member!)

 

[Lizbeth]

Would those that are under the bridges and highways and byways be more likely to receive the invitation from a prophet.

Brother, I believe prophets are primarily ploughmen........and then reapers (eg, evangelists) reap what the ploughmen have worked and laboured hard for (and paid the price), ploughing and sowing. Ploughing is the more difficult work....preparing and tilling the hardened soil of hearts to receive the gospel or return to it....thinking of obstacles like stumps and boulders and overgrown weeds to get out of the way. Like John the Baptist (spirit of Elijah) ploughmen prepare the way for the Lord, calling for repentance, exposing sin and false doctrine etc, and take a lot of flack for it. People don't like to be confronted with anything or corrected.

Amo 9:13

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

Jhn 4:35-38

Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.



(Not that God is inflexible or limited, I believe He can use any vessel He wants to do anything He wants at any time, but this is in general - and for example an evangelist or pastor may also have prophetic gifts and don't see why a prophet can't also have evangelistic gifts, etc). Hope this is helpful.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Johann

I did watch that video with Dr. Bob Utley.
Can't remember if you posted it on this thread....
You said he might not be my cup of tea.
He was OK. I found no problem with him.
For teaching I have to say that I like Mike Winger.
He's a pastor, very down to earth, and goes deep into topics.
I listen to many teachers because the CC I attend does not have any teaching ministries.
'night.

 

[Lizbeth]

The Destruction of the Old Man (Romans 6:6): The debate around the Greek verb καταργέω (to destroy or render powerless) hinges on the extent of the old man's destruction. While the text suggests a decisive break with the power of sin, the verb allows for the interpretation that sin’s dominion is broken, not necessarily its total annihilation.

The grammar and morphology reflect a critical theological point: the aorist and perfect tenses used to describe the crucifixion of the "old man" signal a completed action with lasting results, but not necessarily a complete eradication of sin from human experience. The ongoing aspect of taking up the cross and following Christ (Luke 9:23) underscores the daily reality of living in the tension between the decisive act of crucifixion with Christ and the continuous process of discipleship and sanctification.

The verbs associated with "losing one's life" highlight the need for an initial, decisive surrender but also imply the ongoing work of following Christ. This resonates with the concept of the "dark night" or spiritual crisis where one consents to the death of self and finds life in Christ.

I read Wuest where he said the sinful nature/flesh/sarx was somehow "surgically removed" from the believer-would you agree?

I've heard some describe it as being separated from our old man. The word of God being alive and active and able to penetrate (deep) to the dividing between soul and spirit, bone and marrow..

 

[Lizbeth]

What prophet? Christ Jesus is our Prophet, High Priest and King-there's a dearth of prayers-prayers is needed, not prophets.

The church is His body on earth. He has chosen to work through earthen vessels (as well as that He can work sovereignly).