We're in a famine for the words of God I believe. Still there are some who are trying to get the church back to the true gospel and to turn from sin, but they are not often heeded.
The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
- Thread starter Hepzibah
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Would those that are under the bridges and highways and byways be more likely to receive the invitation from a prophet.
What prophet? Christ Jesus is our Prophet, High Priest and King-there's a dearth of prayers-prayers is needed, not prophets.
Knowing this - Experiencing this. As Hodge puts it "Our inward experience agrees with this doctrinal statement. (Romans Commentary)
Knowing (1097) (ginosko) means to acquire information by whatever means, but often with the implication of personal involvement or experience. As Rich Cathers writes "We need to learn about this. We need to “know” this.
*Our knowledge isn’t merely head knowledge, but knowledge by experience." *
Paul is not admonishing them to know something but instead appears to be appealing to the fact that this was something his readers were already familiar with, i.e., the truth that our old self was crucified with Christ
Leon Morris rightly draws our attention to the fact that "Paul not infrequently appeals to his correspondents’ knowledge (we know; cf. Ro 3:19-note; Ro 6:6-note; Ro 7:14-note; Ro 8:22-note, Ro 8:28-note). He varies his approach by using the participle “knowing” (Ro 5:3-note; Ro 6:9-note; Ro 13:11-note). Or he can say “you know” (Ro 2:18-note) or ask the question “Do you not know?” (Ro 6:3-note, Ro 6:16-note; Ro 7:1-note; Ro 11:2-note; cf. Ro 2:4-note). All this is an invitation to sweet reasonableness. Where the occasion demands it, Paul can be dogmatic and issue authoritative instructions. But he likes to enlist the intelligent cooperation of his readers and have them see the point for themselves (as when he tells the Corinthians, “I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say”, 1Co 10:15). (Morris, L. The Epistle to the Romans. Grand Rapids, Mich.; Leicester, England: W. B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press)
In Ro 6:9 (note) Paul uses the verb eido which speaks of intuitive knowledge whereas ginosko suggests experimental knowledge…
You should be well aware (by what you have been experiencing),” he was saying, “that in Christ you are not the same people you were before salvation. You have a new life, a new heart (cp Ezek 11:19, 18:31, 36:26, 27, cp New Covenant Je 31:31, 32, 33, 34), a new spiritual strength, a new hope (cp Je 29:11, 31:17 - first given to the Jews but by application to all who believe in Messiah), and countless other new things that had no part in your former life.
Footnotes
1.The Greek word for "know" (ginosko) here, means to get to know, come in the knowledge of, become acquainted with the fact. It is an entirely different word from the one translated "knowing" in verse 9 (eido), meaning "a clear and purely mental conception, in contrast both to conjecture and to knowledge derived from others" (Thayer). In this latter verse the fact spoken of is a matter of common knowledge. We, by God's word here, come to know (verse 6) that our old man was crucified with Christ; whereas we know as a necessary thing that Christ, being raised, dieth no more (verse 9). This is not a fact we "come to know, " as in the matter of our vital connection with His death, verse 6. The manner in which we "come to know" our old man was crucified is by faith in God's testimony to fact!
Romans 6:6-7 Commentary | Precept Austin
@marks wrote: If by "something we do" you include the recognition of facts.
As we can see from the previous quotation, it is not just 'the recognition of facts'. And this is the exact point where popular evangelical theology is in error.
Statistics prove that most people identified as Christians, become so at a young age, usually under 21. So they are entirely naive about life itself as well as spiritual matters. That comes over time, as a disciple, in countless failures and hopefully despair and doubts about ones salvation.
They have two choices, either to dissociate from reality which means the pricks of the Holy Spirit, and say to themselves, this is just how it is, even to the confession of Charles H Spurgeon said, at eighty years of age, "I find the old man is not dead yet." (Martyn Lloyd-Jones).
Those who do not sear their consciences, resolve to go deeper to find out 'Is this all there is?' generally hiding it in shame. Hopefully they will get to the point where they see that what they were told and accepted without question is wrong. Giving mental assent to Romans 6:6 does not do what it is supposed to do ie deliver one from the power of sin. It remains and we see believers of 50, or 60 years or more, still in the same place, unrecognizable as different from the world in their actions: their anger, their unforgiveness of others, their inability to control their 'passions' as the ECF said, which is the various appetites and spend their last few years, full of degenerative health problems that are caused by unhealthy diets and lack of exercise.
However, if we at some time on our journey, see the old man as being destroyed, due to actual long term experience of getting to know him while he continues with us, it all changes and we find the holy men of history and Pauls' testimony in Romans 7 is ours. That is to say the end of it when he thanks God because he was given the answer and delivered. He moved into Romans 8 to live out the testimony.
We must ourselves with our free will, consent to this death to the old man which is not possible when we first are learning the truth of the gospel. It is not possible. We only know our natural lives where we thought we were as good as others (unless we have cPTSD).
We then have to listen to thousands of sermons by Pharisees who say the answer is to try harder. JUST STOP SINNING. This is the message of Dr Bob Utley who says that all sin is intentional.
However we come to Romans 7, which Utley admits is Paul as a believer, where we read that it is speaking of unintentional sin. Paul had tried hard and ended up in despair.
This is a wonderful stage of the life of a Christ follower, who becomes a true born again Christian with a dead old man. Everything else is illogical.
As we can see from the previous quotation, it is not just 'the recognition of facts'. And this is the exact point where popular evangelical theology is in error.
Statistics prove that most people identified as Christians, become so at a young age, usually under 21. So they are entirely naive about life itself as well as spiritual matters. That comes over time, as a disciple, in countless failures and hopefully despair and doubts about ones salvation.
They have two choices, either to dissociate from reality which means the pricks of the Holy Spirit, and say to themselves, this is just how it is, even to the confession of Charles H Spurgeon said, at eighty years of age, "I find the old man is not dead yet." (Martyn Lloyd-Jones).
Those who do not sear their consciences, resolve to go deeper to find out 'Is this all there is?' generally hiding it in shame. Hopefully they will get to the point where they see that what they were told and accepted without question is wrong. Giving mental assent to Romans 6:6 does not do what it is supposed to do ie deliver one from the power of sin. It remains and we see believers of 50, or 60 years or more, still in the same place, unrecognizable as different from the world in their actions: their anger, their unforgiveness of others, their inability to control their 'passions' as the ECF said, which is the various appetites and spend their last few years, full of degenerative health problems that are caused by unhealthy diets and lack of exercise.
However, if we at some time on our journey, see the old man as being destroyed, due to actual long term experience of getting to know him while he continues with us, it all changes and we find the holy men of history and Pauls' testimony in Romans 7 is ours. That is to say the end of it when he thanks God because he was given the answer and delivered. He moved into Romans 8 to live out the testimony.
We must ourselves with our free will, consent to this death to the old man which is not possible when we first are learning the truth of the gospel. It is not possible. We only know our natural lives where we thought we were as good as others (unless we have cPTSD).
We then have to listen to thousands of sermons by Pharisees who say the answer is to try harder. JUST STOP SINNING. This is the message of Dr Bob Utley who says that all sin is intentional.
However we come to Romans 7, which Utley admits is Paul as a believer, where we read that it is speaking of unintentional sin. Paul had tried hard and ended up in despair.
This is a wonderful stage of the life of a Christ follower, who becomes a true born again Christian with a dead old man. Everything else is illogical.
Excellent site and glad you take a trip through Romans.Knowing this - Experiencing this. As Hodge puts it "Our inward experience agrees with this doctrinal statement. (Romans Commentary)
Knowing (1097) (ginosko) means to acquire information by whatever means, but often with the implication of personal involvement or experience. As Rich Cathers writes "We need to learn about this. We need to “know” this.
*Our knowledge isn’t merely head knowledge, but knowledge by experience." *
Paul is not admonishing them to know something but instead appears to be appealing to the fact that this was something his readers were already familiar with, i.e., the truth that our old self was crucified with Christ
Leon Morris rightly draws our attention to the fact that "Paul not infrequently appeals to his correspondents’ knowledge (we know; cf. Ro 3:19-note; Ro 6:6-note; Ro 7:14-note; Ro 8:22-note, Ro 8:28-note). He varies his approach by using the participle “knowing” (Ro 5:3-note; Ro 6:9-note; Ro 13:11-note). Or he can say “you know” (Ro 2:18-note) or ask the question “Do you not know?” (Ro 6:3-note, Ro 6:16-note; Ro 7:1-note; Ro 11:2-note; cf. Ro 2:4-note). All this is an invitation to sweet reasonableness. Where the occasion demands it, Paul can be dogmatic and issue authoritative instructions. But he likes to enlist the intelligent cooperation of his readers and have them see the point for themselves (as when he tells the Corinthians, “I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say”, 1Co 10:15). (Morris, L. The Epistle to the Romans. Grand Rapids, Mich.; Leicester, England: W. B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press)
In Ro 6:9 (note) Paul uses the verb eido which speaks of intuitive knowledge whereas ginosko suggests experimental knowledge…
You should be well aware (by what you have been experiencing),” he was saying, “that in Christ you are not the same people you were before salvation. You have a new life, a new heart (cp Ezek 11:19, 18:31, 36:26, 27, cp New Covenant Je 31:31, 32, 33, 34), a new spiritual strength, a new hope (cp Je 29:11, 31:17 - first given to the Jews but by application to all who believe in Messiah), and countless other new things that had no part in your former life.
Footnotes
1.The Greek word for "know" (ginosko) here, means to get to know, come in the knowledge of, become acquainted with the fact. It is an entirely different word from the one translated "knowing" in verse 9 (eido), meaning "a clear and purely mental conception, in contrast both to conjecture and to knowledge derived from others" (Thayer). In this latter verse the fact spoken of is a matter of common knowledge. We, by God's word here, come to know (verse 6) that our old man was crucified with Christ; whereas we know as a necessary thing that Christ, being raised, dieth no more (verse 9). This is not a fact we "come to know, " as in the matter of our vital connection with His death, verse 6. The manner in which we "come to know" our old man was crucified is by faith in God's testimony to fact!
Romans 6:6-7 Commentary | Precept Austin
www.preceptaustin.org
What has been described, is a Christianity without the cross.
Crucified with Christ means a definite consent to losing our lives. If we have reached the crisis (dark night) and we consented, there is no more sin. If the old man is destroyed (contested endlessly by theologians using the Greek verb in different ways).
This is available to us now, today in the power of a God who created all things and desires for us to be restored to Him. The devil always says 'tomorrow'.
You have been deceived by him dear reader, by popular evangelicalism. Coming to Christ and finding out the truth does not save us. We must lose our lives to be saved and that does not come by 'making a decision'.
Crucified with Christ means a definite consent to losing our lives. If we have reached the crisis (dark night) and we consented, there is no more sin. If the old man is destroyed (contested endlessly by theologians using the Greek verb in different ways).
This is available to us now, today in the power of a God who created all things and desires for us to be restored to Him. The devil always says 'tomorrow'.
You have been deceived by him dear reader, by popular evangelicalism. Coming to Christ and finding out the truth does not save us. We must lose our lives to be saved and that does not come by 'making a decision'.
I am an ex-Calvinist remember. They were not wrong about everything. I have listened to every sermon that MLJ preached.
Same here-ex-Calvinist.
If I understand you correctly you reckon we can reach a state of sinlessness-right?
Correct-it does not come by making a "decision"
Give this a listen and give me your review.
Baptism of the Spirit is the gateway into Christ and Christ cannot abide where there is sin so yes.
The Destruction of the Old Man (Romans 6:6): The debate around the Greek verb καταργέω (to destroy or render powerless) hinges on the extent of the old man's destruction. While the text suggests a decisive break with the power of sin, the verb allows for the interpretation that sin’s dominion is broken, not necessarily its total annihilation.
The grammar and morphology reflect a critical theological point: the aorist and perfect tenses used to describe the crucifixion of the "old man" signal a completed action with lasting results, but not necessarily a complete eradication of sin from human experience. The ongoing aspect of taking up the cross and following Christ (Luke 9:23) underscores the daily reality of living in the tension between the decisive act of crucifixion with Christ and the continuous process of discipleship and sanctification.
The verbs associated with "losing one's life" highlight the need for an initial, decisive surrender but also imply the ongoing work of following Christ. This resonates with the concept of the "dark night" or spiritual crisis where one consents to the death of self and finds life in Christ.
I read Wuest where he said the sinful nature/flesh/sarx was somehow "surgically removed" from the believer-would you agree?
Thanks-this is where I receive edification and would disagree that Utley finds it hard to include it in his theology.
J.
Sorry but a bit busy.
I think that Utley misses the reason why Paul wrote Romans 6, 7 & 8. It was written to answer the perennial problem of how does a believer stop sinning. Some will not bother asking that question. They have quenched the Holy Spirit.
The rest will go into the dark night over it. Paul is describing that in Romans 7 - oh wretched man. In Romans 6 Utley claims that all sin is deliberate. Well yes some is, usually from the HS quenched ones. However, many agonize over whether they are really saved or not and are in despair. Actually they should listen to that voice within, in the middle of the night. They are not walking in the power of God and need to be plugged in.
Paul then goes on to speak of his struggle with unintentional sin. So we have the first inconsistency with Utley.
So Utley leaves Paul with the struggle when the struggle is over at the end of the chapter so that Paul praises God for it. Those who have truly been through the latter dark night, know that this is wrong. That is because they come to the point where they are finished. Some of them have been preachers who were ready to leave.
The answer is in the giving up of ones life - death to the old man, who had continued to survive. He must be in the position of annihilation for this to take place. Of course those who want to water this theology down say 'out of action'. Well in a sense it is true - he can be revived, but that takes away from the truth of the doctrine. The Greek allows for it a Greek friend told me. Spiritual truths do not follow human logic.
Utley claims he believes in sinless perfection, but sinless perfection requires that one goes through this crucifixion in spiritual reality. It is one thing to think it a possibility but another to know it in experience. Then one is a holiness preacher and understands these chapters.
It is not easy to explain or understand. It is completely gone yes in order for a man to be in Christ in reality not just in position. But it can come back.
If you quote from this site I believe you should be consistent and not selective in what you pick and choose? @Hepzibah?
Vine explains that katargeo "never means “to annihilate.” (= to destroy utterly and completely and thus cause to cease to exist) The general idea in the word is that of depriving a thing of the use for which it is intended. (Collected writings of W. E. Vine. Nashville: Thomas Nelson )
Someone has written that katargeo is pictured by our well known English phrases like "to pull the teeth out of, or to declaw." That's a good picture of what the Word of the Cross (1 Cor 1:18) does to the power of sin in our lives - it "declaws" it! (picture) The American Heritage Dictionary says declaw is "To strip of power, potency, or strength; make harmless or less threatening." Thank You, Jesus for the Cross!
The body of sin's power has been once and for all made ineffective, rendered powerless (do you believe that beloved?) and deprived of its force. Note that both the NAS (done away with) and the KJV (“destroyed”) readings can at first glance suggest that our body of sin is completely eradicated, which is not what this verse is teaching.
Paul is not saying that that the power of sin is destroyed or annihilated. Sin is still resident in every believer's physical body and this truth explains the ongoing struggle every believer experiences with sin.
In former times the indolence, appetites, necessities, and dangers of the body ruled us with an influence we could not resist; and led us into sin. We were born with or into a body of sin. But, now that our old self has been nailed to the cross of Christ, the power of sin over our body has been rendered inoperative. Sin in now a choice.
But katargeo (done away with) literally means “to render inoperative or invalid,” to make something ineffective by removing its power of control. That meaning is seen clearly in the term’s rendering in such other passages in Romans as 3:3-note, Ro 3:31-note (“nullify”), Ro 4:14-note (“nullified”), Ro 7:2-note (“released from”).
As every mature Christian learns, the more he grows in Christ, the more he becomes aware of sin (cp "the little foxes" Song 2:15; see Charles Stanley's related discussion below) in his or her life. As Paul explains more fully in Romans 7, every believer (NB: Some expositors feel that Romans 7 does not refer to a believer struggling with sin and self, but I think that is the most reasonable interpretation -
expositors such as John Piper and John MacArthur concur) still retains a residual "sediment" if you will of the unredeemed humanness (aka, flesh) which Paul illustrates from his own experience. This fallen flesh remains with every believer until we reach glory in heaven. As we have repeatedly emphasized in these notes and as every believer's experience gives sad but ample testimony, this remaining fallen, depraved nature retains the propensity to sin (and/or to tempt us to sin, and most of us have our "pet favorites"!). What Paul is stressing in this great section of Romans is that not only is penalty of sin paid for in full (Jn 19:30), but that the power of sin and it's "right" to rule over our lives has been broken.
www.preceptaustin.org
If you have time we can open our Bibles and see for ourselves.
J.
Vine explains that katargeo "never means “to annihilate.” (= to destroy utterly and completely and thus cause to cease to exist) The general idea in the word is that of depriving a thing of the use for which it is intended. (Collected writings of W. E. Vine. Nashville: Thomas Nelson )
Someone has written that katargeo is pictured by our well known English phrases like "to pull the teeth out of, or to declaw." That's a good picture of what the Word of the Cross (1 Cor 1:18) does to the power of sin in our lives - it "declaws" it! (picture) The American Heritage Dictionary says declaw is "To strip of power, potency, or strength; make harmless or less threatening." Thank You, Jesus for the Cross!
The body of sin's power has been once and for all made ineffective, rendered powerless (do you believe that beloved?) and deprived of its force. Note that both the NAS (done away with) and the KJV (“destroyed”) readings can at first glance suggest that our body of sin is completely eradicated, which is not what this verse is teaching.
Paul is not saying that that the power of sin is destroyed or annihilated. Sin is still resident in every believer's physical body and this truth explains the ongoing struggle every believer experiences with sin.
In former times the indolence, appetites, necessities, and dangers of the body ruled us with an influence we could not resist; and led us into sin. We were born with or into a body of sin. But, now that our old self has been nailed to the cross of Christ, the power of sin over our body has been rendered inoperative. Sin in now a choice.
But katargeo (done away with) literally means “to render inoperative or invalid,” to make something ineffective by removing its power of control. That meaning is seen clearly in the term’s rendering in such other passages in Romans as 3:3-note, Ro 3:31-note (“nullify”), Ro 4:14-note (“nullified”), Ro 7:2-note (“released from”).
As every mature Christian learns, the more he grows in Christ, the more he becomes aware of sin (cp "the little foxes" Song 2:15; see Charles Stanley's related discussion below) in his or her life. As Paul explains more fully in Romans 7, every believer (NB: Some expositors feel that Romans 7 does not refer to a believer struggling with sin and self, but I think that is the most reasonable interpretation -
expositors such as John Piper and John MacArthur concur) still retains a residual "sediment" if you will of the unredeemed humanness (aka, flesh) which Paul illustrates from his own experience. This fallen flesh remains with every believer until we reach glory in heaven. As we have repeatedly emphasized in these notes and as every believer's experience gives sad but ample testimony, this remaining fallen, depraved nature retains the propensity to sin (and/or to tempt us to sin, and most of us have our "pet favorites"!). What Paul is stressing in this great section of Romans is that not only is penalty of sin paid for in full (Jn 19:30), but that the power of sin and it's "right" to rule over our lives has been broken.
Romans 6:6-7 Commentary | Precept Austin
If you have time we can open our Bibles and see for ourselves.
J.
Give it a try-using Scripture references.
Not that I put the man on a pedestal but I do believe Utley is correct in his theology. Though fallible.
It is easy-not the way you explain it though, makes it rather complicated Sister.
