The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

There are doctrinal differences, mostly on minor things, but the vast majority use the Divine Liturgy and either the old or new calendar for feasts. You can go into one Orthodox church and go to another thousands of miles away and find it exactly the same. Nothing like what happened to Protestantism.

But I am not here to defend their denomination as there is plenty where I do not agree with them and especially over the general understanding of Theosis which is the gradual one found in the west.

Like many churches they have left their beginnings behind and a lot of apostacy brought in. They have not been immune to the invasion of those who wish to destroy Christianity.

 

[Johann]

There are doctrinal differences, mostly on minor things, but the vast majority use the Divine Liturgy and either the old or new calendar for feasts. You can go into one Orthodox church and go to another thousands of miles away and find it exactly the same. Nothing like what happened to Protestantism.

But I am not here to defend their denomination as there is plenty where I do not agree with them and especially over the general understanding of Theosis which is the gradual one found in the west.

Like many churches they have left their beginnings behind and a lot of apostacy brought in. They have not been immune to the invasion of those who wish to destroy Christianity.

Right-on water baptism, do you believe water can wash away your sins? Or the blood, and/or both?
Baptism as Spiritual Rebirth:
Justin Martyr (c. 100–165):

Justin Martyr, in his First Apology, describes baptism as a washing of regeneration and illumination. He believed that through baptism, believers are cleansed of their sins, reborn in Christ, and illuminated by the Holy Spirit. Justin saw baptism as essential for salvation, linking it directly to the remission of sins.

Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202):

Irenaeus emphasized the regenerative power of baptism, connecting it to the Incarnation of Christ. In Against Heresies, he argued that just as Christ was baptized, believers must undergo the same process to be reborn as children of God. For Irenaeus, baptism was not merely symbolic but a real participation in the death and resurrection of Christ.

2. Baptism as Entry into the Church:
Tertullian (c. 160–220):

Tertullian, one of the earliest Latin theologians, wrote extensively about baptism in his treatise On Baptism. He viewed baptism as the sacrament that grants entrance into the Church, marking the believer’s formal initiation into the Christian community. Tertullian also emphasized the necessity of faith and repentance before baptism, particularly for adult converts.
Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258):

Cyprian, a prominent North African bishop, strongly affirmed the necessity of baptism for salvation in his letters and treatises. He argued that baptism is the means by which one is incorporated into the Church, the body of Christ. Cyprian also addressed the validity of baptism performed outside the Church, emphasizing that true baptism must be administered within the context of the Church’s apostolic authority.
3. Baptism and the Forgiveness of Sins:
Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–253):

Origen taught that baptism was essential for the forgiveness of sins and the reception of the Holy Spirit. In his Commentary on Romans, he explained that baptism cleanses the believer from original sin and any sins committed prior to baptism. Origen also linked baptism to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, which begins at the moment of baptism and continues throughout the believer’s life.
Augustine of Hippo (354–430):

Augustine developed a more detailed theology of baptism, particularly concerning the doctrine of original sin. In his writings, such as Confessions and The City of God, Augustine argued that baptism is necessary for the remission of original sin and that even infants should be baptized to be cleansed from the inherited guilt of Adam. Augustine’s teachings on baptism had a profound influence on the development of Western Christian thought.
4. The Rite and Practice of Baptism:
Didache (c. 1st century):

The Didache, one of the earliest Christian documents outside the New Testament, provides practical instructions on the administration of baptism. It advises that baptism be performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, preferably in running water. If sufficient water is not available, the Didache allows for pouring water on the head three times as an alternative to immersion.
Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235):

In his work Apostolic Tradition, Hippolytus describes a detailed baptismal rite that includes pre-baptismal catechesis, renunciation of Satan, and a triple immersion in water. His writings provide insight into the liturgical practices of the early Church and emphasize the communal and sacramental nature of baptism.

1 John 1:7 (NKJV):

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."
This passage emphasizes that the blood of Jesus is instrumental in cleansing believers from sin. It highlights the ongoing, purifying effect of Christ’s sacrifice for those who live in relationship with Him.
Hebrews 9:22 (NKJV):

"And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission."
The author of Hebrews implies the necessity of bloodshed for the remission of sins, connecting the Old Testament sacrificial system with the ultimate sacrifice of Christ’s blood for the forgiveness of sins.
Revelation 1:5 (NKJV):

"And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood."
This verse reaffirms that Jesus’ blood is the means by which believers are washed from their sins, reflecting the transformative power of Christ’s sacrifice.

2. Theological Implications:
Atonement:

In Christian theology, Jesus’ blood represents the atonement for sin. The concept of atonement refers to the reconciliation between God and humanity through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His death is viewed as a substitutionary atonement, where His sacrifice pays the penalty for human sin.
Justification:

The blood of Jesus is also associated with the doctrine of justification, where believers are declared righteous before God based on Christ’s sacrifice. Paul writes in Romans 5:9 (NKJV), "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Justification involves being declared righteous and free from the guilt of sin through Jesus’ blood.
Redemption:

Jesus’ blood is seen as the means of redemption, meaning believers are bought back from the power of sin and death. Ephesians 1:7 (NKJV) states, "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." Redemption emphasizes the release from bondage and the restoration of a right relationship with God.

3. Role of Baptism:
Complementary Role:

While the blood of Jesus is the primary means of atonement and forgiveness, baptism is closely related but serves a complementary role. In many Christian traditions, baptism is seen as an outward sign and a means of publicly acknowledging and receiving the grace that Jesus’ blood provides. Baptism symbolizes the believer’s union with Christ’s death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4) and is an act of obedience that follows faith.
Baptism and Faith:

Baptism does not replace or duplicate the work of Christ’s blood but rather signifies and confirms it. In this view, baptism is an act of faith that expresses and affirms what Christ’s blood has accomplished. Thus, the belief is that while the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin, baptism is an essential response to and public declaration of that cleansing.

You agree @Hepzibah?

 

[Hepzibah]

Right-on water baptism, do you believe water can wash away your sins? Or the blood, and/or both?
Baptism as Spiritual Rebirth:
Justin Martyr (c. 100–165):

Justin Martyr, in his First Apology, describes baptism as a washing of regeneration and illumination. He believed that through baptism, believers are cleansed of their sins, reborn in Christ, and illuminated by the Holy Spirit. Justin saw baptism as essential for salvation, linking it directly to the remission of sins.

Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202):

Irenaeus emphasized the regenerative power of baptism, connecting it to the Incarnation of Christ. In Against Heresies, he argued that just as Christ was baptized, believers must undergo the same process to be reborn as children of God. For Irenaeus, baptism was not merely symbolic but a real participation in the death and resurrection of Christ.

2. Baptism as Entry into the Church:
Tertullian (c. 160–220):

Tertullian, one of the earliest Latin theologians, wrote extensively about baptism in his treatise On Baptism. He viewed baptism as the sacrament that grants entrance into the Church, marking the believer’s formal initiation into the Christian community. Tertullian also emphasized the necessity of faith and repentance before baptism, particularly for adult converts.
Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258):

Cyprian, a prominent North African bishop, strongly affirmed the necessity of baptism for salvation in his letters and treatises. He argued that baptism is the means by which one is incorporated into the Church, the body of Christ. Cyprian also addressed the validity of baptism performed outside the Church, emphasizing that true baptism must be administered within the context of the Church’s apostolic authority.
3. Baptism and the Forgiveness of Sins:
Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–253):

Origen taught that baptism was essential for the forgiveness of sins and the reception of the Holy Spirit. In his Commentary on Romans, he explained that baptism cleanses the believer from original sin and any sins committed prior to baptism. Origen also linked baptism to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, which begins at the moment of baptism and continues throughout the believer’s life.
Augustine of Hippo (354–430):

Augustine developed a more detailed theology of baptism, particularly concerning the doctrine of original sin. In his writings, such as Confessions and The City of God, Augustine argued that baptism is necessary for the remission of original sin and that even infants should be baptized to be cleansed from the inherited guilt of Adam. Augustine’s teachings on baptism had a profound influence on the development of Western Christian thought.
4. The Rite and Practice of Baptism:
Didache (c. 1st century):

The Didache, one of the earliest Christian documents outside the New Testament, provides practical instructions on the administration of baptism. It advises that baptism be performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, preferably in running water. If sufficient water is not available, the Didache allows for pouring water on the head three times as an alternative to immersion.
Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235):

In his work Apostolic Tradition, Hippolytus describes a detailed baptismal rite that includes pre-baptismal catechesis, renunciation of Satan, and a triple immersion in water. His writings provide insight into the liturgical practices of the early Church and emphasize the communal and sacramental nature of baptism.

1 John 1:7 (NKJV):

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."
This passage emphasizes that the blood of Jesus is instrumental in cleansing believers from sin. It highlights the ongoing, purifying effect of Christ’s sacrifice for those who live in relationship with Him.
Hebrews 9:22 (NKJV):

"And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission."
The author of Hebrews implies the necessity of bloodshed for the remission of sins, connecting the Old Testament sacrificial system with the ultimate sacrifice of Christ’s blood for the forgiveness of sins.
Revelation 1:5 (NKJV):

"And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood."
This verse reaffirms that Jesus’ blood is the means by which believers are washed from their sins, reflecting the transformative power of Christ’s sacrifice.

2. Theological Implications:
Atonement:

In Christian theology, Jesus’ blood represents the atonement for sin. The concept of atonement refers to the reconciliation between God and humanity through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His death is viewed as a substitutionary atonement, where His sacrifice pays the penalty for human sin.
Justification:

The blood of Jesus is also associated with the doctrine of justification, where believers are declared righteous before God based on Christ’s sacrifice. Paul writes in Romans 5:9 (NKJV), "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Justification involves being declared righteous and free from the guilt of sin through Jesus’ blood.
Redemption:

Jesus’ blood is seen as the means of redemption, meaning believers are bought back from the power of sin and death. Ephesians 1:7 (NKJV) states, "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." Redemption emphasizes the release from bondage and the restoration of a right relationship with God.

3. Role of Baptism:
Complementary Role:

While the blood of Jesus is the primary means of atonement and forgiveness, baptism is closely related but serves a complementary role. In many Christian traditions, baptism is seen as an outward sign and a means of publicly acknowledging and receiving the grace that Jesus’ blood provides. Baptism symbolizes the believer’s union with Christ’s death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4) and is an act of obedience that follows faith.
Baptism and Faith:

Baptism does not replace or duplicate the work of Christ’s blood but rather signifies and confirms it. In this view, baptism is an act of faith that expresses and affirms what Christ’s blood has accomplished. Thus, the belief is that while the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin, baptism is an essential response to and public declaration of that cleansing.

You agree @Hepzibah?

There is only one baptism, which is the actual union of the believer with Christ, whereby one has been cleansed of all sin by His blood and has therefore gained entry into the kingdom.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us *(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh*, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Peter 3:21

 

[Johann]

There is only one baptism, which is the actual union of the believer with Christ, whereby one has been cleansed of all sin by His blood and has therefore gained entry into the kingdom.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us *(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh*, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ 1 Peter 3:21

I take it you believe infant baptism is regenerative?

1Pe 3:15 but set Christ apart (+) as Lord in your hearts, always ready to (+) make a defense to anyone who asks you (+) for an accounting concerning the hope (+) that is in you.
1Pe 3:16 But (+) do so with courtesy and respect, having a good conscience, so that in (+) the things in which you are slandered, the ones who malign your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame.
1Pe 3:17 For (+) it is better to suffer for doing good, if God wills it [Literally “if the will of God wills”] , than for doing evil.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, in order that he could bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which also he went (+) and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who were formerly disobedient, when the patience of God waited in the days of Noah, (+) while [Here “while” is supplied as a component of the temporal genitive absolute participle (“was being constructed”)] an ark was being constructed, in which a few—that is, eight souls—were rescued through water.
1Pe 3:21 And [Literally “which”] also, corresponding to (+) this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, with angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to him.


I gave you the context-what Orthodox sources could you give me to exegete the above passage? This is only fair to ask since you believe Western Orthodoxy has departed from the truth.

You can put the links in your response..

 

[Hepzibah]

I take it you believe infant baptism is regenerative?

There is only one baptism and that is baptism of the Spirit. This of necessity is in adults.

1Pe 3:15 but set Christ apart (+) as Lord in your hearts, always ready to (+) make a defense to anyone who asks you (+) for an accounting concerning the hope (+) that is in you.
1Pe 3:16 But (+) do so with courtesy and respect, having a good conscience, so that in (+) the things in which you are slandered, the ones who malign your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame.
1Pe 3:17 For (+) it is better to suffer for doing good, if God wills it [Literally “if the will of God wills”] , than for doing evil.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, in order that he could bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which also he went (+) and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who were formerly disobedient, when the patience of God waited in the days of Noah, (+) while [Here “while” is supplied as a component of the temporal genitive absolute participle (“was being constructed”)] an ark was being constructed, in which a few—that is, eight souls—were rescued through water.
1Pe 3:21 And [Literally “which”] also, corresponding to (+) this, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, with angels and authorities and powers having been subjected to him.


I gave you the context-what Orthodox sources could you give me to exegete the above passage? This is only fair to ask since you believe Western Orthodoxy has departed from the truth.

You can put the links in your response..

 

[Johann]

There is only one baptism and that is baptism of the Spirit. This of necessity is in adults.

Thanks for NOT answering me on this-

I gave you the context-what Orthodox sources could you give me to exegete the above passage? This is only fair to ask since you believe Western Orthodoxy has departed from the truth.

You can put the links in your response..

 

[Hepzibah]

Thanks for NOT answering me on this-

I gave you the context-what Orthodox sources could you give me to exegete the above passage? This is only fair to ask since you believe Western Orthodoxy has departed from the truth.

You can put the links in your response..

I don't agree with EO over pedobaptism. Other refs are meaning Spirit baptism which I do believe in.

 

[Johann]

I don't agree with EO over pedobaptism. Other refs are meaning Spirit baptism which I do believe in.

I concur with you on this point.
“Baptized in One Spirit into One Body.” In Ephesians 4:4 to 6 there is mention of one Body, one Spirit, one Baptism. Jews and Greeks were not baptized in one Spirit into one Body at the time John Baptist was baptizing with water that Christ might be made manifest to Israel; at the time the Twelve were baptized with water.

It is one thing for Israel to have water baptism to have their Messiah manifested to them: it is quite a different thing for Israelites and Gentiles to be united in One Body by Holy Spirit baptism. John’s water baptism was in connection with Christ’s proclamation of the kingdom to Israel.

Therefore there is Scriptural authority for “kingdom baptism”. But “Christian baptism” is an indefinite, uncertain expression; an expression from the pen of theologians but not found in the Bible: Some differentiate between kingdom water baptism while Christ was on earth, and what they call Christian water baptism after the Spirit came from heaven. But they cannot Scripturally prove the two different water baptisms by the experience of Twelve. According to this discrimination the Twelve never received Christian baptism; only Israelitish kingdom baptism.

If John’s baptism was New Covenant baptism, and if there is anything to the law of first occurrence, what meaning had water baptism until the last occurrence of water baptism in Acts 19:2 to 7? We should not prove the meaning by the exception to the order set forth in Acts 10:34 to 48, the experience of Cornelius and his house; remembering that Cornelius was the first Gentile to come in with the Jews who required a sign.

There is no Scriptural authority for the two-fold designation of water baptism. “kingdom baptism”, and “Christian baptism”. This is theory and tradition.

Neither has a Christian Scriptural authority for changing the order of Mark 16:16, “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”, to “he that believeth and is saved shall be baptized”.

If we are to hold on to water on the authority of that Scripture, let us observe the order. If we do, how can we reconcile that gospel with the gospel of Romans 3:24 and Ephesians 2:8 and 9? Water baptism has no place in the message of pure grace as it had in Mark 16:16. Christ sent Paul not to baptize. I Corinthians 1:17.

This leads us to this important declaration. No Scripture instructs one member of the Body of Ephesians to baptize with water another believer who is already a member of that Body. The one baptism of Ephesians 4:5, like the one baptism of Romans 6:3, produces a spiritual change in the sinner.

By that one baptism the believing sinner is identified with Christ in death, burial and resurrection. As the result of that one baptism, the believer is seated in the heavenlies in Christ and blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies. Forever is he a member of the Body of Christ. Water baptism today produces no spiritual change in any sinner or saint: Water baptism neither helps to save any sinner nor helps to keep him saved.

All such messengers admit that water baptism has absolutely no efficacy to aid toward, or add to, the believer’s completeness in Christ or membership in His Body. Colossians 2:10. Water baptism is not required by God for membership in the true Church, which is the Body of Christ. Water baptism is not required for salvation or regeneration. Water baptism is not demanded as a condition for receiving the Holy Spirit. Then water baptism, according to Ephesians, and according to the admissions of present-day grace preachers, does not have the meaning that it had in Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:3 to 7 or in Acts 8:12 to 17.

What is its meaning? Can you give a Scriptural answer and not a human theory?, What men have been teaching and preaching will never satisfy the searching mind of the true Berean. Do not follow established creeds or the tradition of the elders. Church habits and Bible truth may differ.

After you have prayed earnestly and searched the Scriptures, diligently and have been thereby convinced as to which of the more than one dozen interpretations, modes and signification’s practiced by orthodox Christians is demanded for members of the Body of Christ, obey the demand and then look for the man who is Scripturally qualified to baptize.

But remember; study diligently the Word of God before you answer to God, “to be or not to be baptized”.

When you ask men, however spiritual they may be, as a rule they cannot give you any definite Scripture to prove that water baptism is compatible with the gospel of the grace of God.

If they quote the so-called Great Commission of Matthew 28:19 and 20 and Mark 16:14 to 18, they must admit that the instructions there were given to apostles, who were not yet in the Body of Christ, apostles who will be on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28). These apostles were ministers to the circumcision with the gospel of the circumcision. Galatians 2:7 to 9. They were commissioned before the Body began historically. They were baptized many months before the Body began historically. Then the Twelve were not baptized with water as members of the church of Ephesians 1:19 to 22. The apostle to the Gentiles plainly declared, “Christ sent me not to baptize”. I Corinthians 1:17. As members of the Body of Christ from which Scriptures are we to get our instructions concerning water baptism and the gospel of the grace of God? There is not a single word instructing members of Christ’s Body to be baptized.

The great majority of Christians are practicing what their human leaders have taught them; what church creeds demand of them, and seem to think that they are in the will of God because they comply with a denominational demand instead of obeying the Scriptures rightly divided.

If a man or a group of men demand a religious ceremony as a door of entrance into any of their churches and the Lord does not demand that ceremony to become a member of His Church, what is your duty? Something may happen to your church membership here below if you obey the Head of the church in the heavenlies.

Be a Berean. Ask for chapter and verse. Do not do something because it has long been a religious habit.

The above is for the readers and not to you @Hepzibah since I am in agreement with you here.

To Be Or Not To Be Baptized

A SIMPLE MESSAGE ON BAPTISM Judging from the present-day controversy about water baptism it would seem that it is not possible to write a simple message on the subject. Most assuredly it requires more than a superficial study of the Scriptures to produce a strong conviction in the matter, based upo

bereanbiblesociety.org

J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Hang on, four baptisms now :) lol. I think a lot of confusion is due to 'progressive' theology which has spilled over to a gradual sanctification which is not in line with the three definite stages in the early church, and the two definite stages in the Holiness Movement of the 19th C.

There are blessings of course and I think people get confused with them. There are only two states of man according to Genesis, one feeding from the tree of knowledge and the other the tree of life. A sinner or a saint. And this difference is due to the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the fiery sword yielded by the cherubim at the gate of Eden. To get back into the kingdom requires the fire of baptism.

Most of Christianity in the west says that coming to Christ for forgiveness gives us that, but that is not what reality shows. If we have had the Holy Baptism, we will have the fruit (not fruits) of the Spirit. You cannot have little bits of God gained over time.

So this is the only really important thing - have we been baptized since we believed?

We are now in the age where the ceremonies and physical under the old covenant have been taken over by the Spiritual, the shadow and type by the spiritual reality. The water baptism of the old by the Spirit baptism of the new.

That is all that I will say about water baptism and the clear words of scripture that there is only one baptism. I don't see a need for speculation. If we have received blessings out side of this then good, but we should not let them be above scripture.

No, I'm talking about potentially three baptisms, but the first two are part of the same initial package when we come to faith (pictured by the Red Sea crossing). That might even have been all that the apostle had in mind when he wrote one faith, one baptism. Because there is no wilderness of dying to self and maturing required to receive the first baptism of water and spirit which saves us....it is a free gift for all born again believers. The apostles were imparting the baptism of the Holy Spirit by laying on hands to all new believers that they prayed for. Water baptism and initial spirit baptism is all part of the one foundation:

Heb 6:1-2
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptismS, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

After that we need to go on to perfection, yes.....the initial gift didn't cost us anything but now we start to count the cost and pay a price as we carry our crosses and die to ourselves.....looking for and paying the price for a second circumcision and spirit baptism needed to walk in complete victory over the old man/carnal nature...pictured by crossing the Jordan into the land of promise. Since, after coming to faith and receiving the initial foundational things we are still told to seek God's kingdom and righteousness....there's still more to get hold of. Well anyway that's about where I am with this right now, not carved in stone but subjecting it to the Lord.

 

[Johann]

No, I'm talking about potentially three baptisms, but the first two are part of the same initial package when we come to faith (pictured by the Red Sea crossing). That might even have been all that the apostle had in mind when he wrote one faith, one baptism. Because there is no wilderness of dying to self and maturing required to receive the first baptism of water and spirit which saves us....it is a free gift for all born again believers. The apostles were imparting the baptism of the Holy Spirit by laying on hands to all new believers that they prayed for. Water baptism and initial spirit baptism is all part of the one foundation:

Heb 6:1-2
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptismS, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

After that we need to go on to perfection, yes.....the initial gift didn't cost us anything but now we start to count the cost and pay a price as we carry our crosses and die to ourselves.....looking for and paying the price for a second circumcision and spirit baptism needed to walk in complete victory over the old man/carnal nature...pictured by crossing the Jordan into the land of promise. Since, after coming to faith and receiving the initial foundational things we are still told to seek God's kingdom and righteousness....there's still more to get hold of. Well anyway that's about where I am with this right now, not carved in stone but subjecting it to the Lord.

Not More than One Baptism
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Eph. 4:4-6).

These verses contain “the unity of the Spirit” (Eph. 4:3), and these seven truths are to unite believers, members of the Church.

First, there is “one Body.” There is one singular Church for this current dispensation of grace. Though there are many different denominations and countless local assemblies in the world, there is only one Body. The one Body is the one true Church, the universal body of believers of this present age. It is made up of anyone and everyone who has trusted the gospel of the grace of God, that Christ died for our sins and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 1:12-13).

Second, there is “one Spirit.” There are not separate Spirits or different Spirits that indwell the many members of the one Body, but the same Spirit. One Spirit, the Holy Spirit, indwells the Church as a whole and every individual in it (Eph. 2:22).

Third, there is “one hope of your calling.” We who are in the Church do not have different hopes; we all have the same hope of heaven (Eph. 2:6). There is a different hope held out in the Bible for Israel: an everlasting kingdom on the earth. However, our one hope and eternal calling in Christ is heaven.

Fourth, there is “one Lord.” The same Lord over you is the same Lord over me and all of us in the Church: the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Head of the Body (Eph. 1:22-23), and we are each called to submit to Him and His loving Lordship.

Fifth, there is “one faith.” We do not follow multiple or different faiths. There is not one faith for one part of the Body and another faith for a different part of the Body. There are other faiths to be found in the Bible that were to be followed and obeyed in the past, however. For example, for 1500 years, in order to be accepted of God, Israel was required to trust and obey the law. However, in the dispensation of grace, there is one faith, one body of truth for us to trust and follow: the faith that was committed to the Apostle Paul for the Church under grace (Eph. 3:1-9).

Sixth, there is “one baptism.” There are multiple baptisms taught in the Bible: the baptisms and washings required under the law, the water baptism of John the Baptist, the water baptism of Peter at Pentecost, and numerous spiritual baptisms. However, in the dispensation of grace, there is one baptism, the baptism that the Holy Spirit performs at our salvation (1 Cor. 12:13).

Seventh, there is “one God and Father of all” of the Body. There is one God in three Persons—all three Members of the Godhead being mentioned in this passage—and we all worship and serve the same God. God the Father is “above all” the Body, works “through all” the Body, and is “in…all” the Body.

It is important to look at the “one baptism” in light of the other six ones in the list, because there obviously are not multiple Bodies, various Holy Spirits, nor several hopes of our calling; there are not lots of Lords, numerous faiths for us to follow under grace, or more than one God the Father. There is only one of each of these for us. Likewise, there are not multiple or two different baptisms, but only one for the Church today. And this baptism is spiritual; it is a Spirit baptism.

“In Christ” is a blessed prepositional phrase and is stated frequently in Ephesians (Eph. 1:1,3; 2:6; etc.) and throughout Paul’s epistles. How does one get “in Christ”? The answer: by the Holy Spirit’s baptism. The Holy Spirit identifies, unites, and places us into Christ the instant we trust the gospel of grace.

We firmly believe in baptism. However, there is only “one baptism” today; Ephesians 4:3,5 teaches that the spiritual baptism is what is to unite us as the one Body of the Church today. The one baptism is to be what it stands for, proclaims, and causes us to rejoice in continually, because the truth of this baptism is an extraordinary blessing.

One [Unifying] Baptism

“Three boys are in the schoolyard bragging of how great their fathers are.“The first one says, ‘Well, my father runs the fastest. He can fire an arrow, and start to run, I tell you, he gets there before the arrow.’ “The second boy says, ‘Ha! You think that’s fast! My father is a hunter. He can shoot

bereanbiblesociety.org

I prefer to be a stickler to "Biblianeze terminologies" @Lizbeth and the ancient rabbinical culture and customs on the Mikveh and the purpose of John's baptism.
Shalom
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

No, I'm talking about potentially three baptisms, but the first two are part of the same initial package when we come to faith (pictured by the Red Sea crossing). That might even have been all that the apostle had in mind when he wrote one faith, one baptism. Because there is no wilderness of dying to self and maturing required to receive the first baptism of water and spirit which saves us....it is a free gift for all born again believers. The apostles were imparting the baptism of the Holy Spirit by laying on hands to all new believers that they prayed for. Water baptism and initial spirit baptism is all part of the one foundation:

Heb 6:1-2
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptismS, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Leave that behind yes.

After that we need to go on to perfection, yes.....the initial gift didn't cost us anything but now we start to count the cost and pay a price as we carry our crosses and die to ourselves.....looking for and paying the price for a second circumcision and spirit baptism needed to walk in complete victory over the old man/carnal nature...pictured by crossing the Jordan into the land of promise. Since, after coming to faith and receiving the initial foundational things we are still told to seek God's kingdom and righteousness....there's still more to get hold of. Well anyway that's about where I am with this right now, not carved in stone but subjecting it to the Lord.

Amen to that! (not die to self though) We are to deny self. Without self we are not alive.

 

[Lizbeth]

Not More than One Baptism
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Eph. 4:4-6).

These verses contain “the unity of the Spirit” (Eph. 4:3), and these seven truths are to unite believers, members of the Church.

First, there is “one Body.” There is one singular Church for this current dispensation of grace. Though there are many different denominations and countless local assemblies in the world, there is only one Body. The one Body is the one true Church, the universal body of believers of this present age. It is made up of anyone and everyone who has trusted the gospel of the grace of God, that Christ died for our sins and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 1:12-13).

Second, there is “one Spirit.” There are not separate Spirits or different Spirits that indwell the many members of the one Body, but the same Spirit. One Spirit, the Holy Spirit, indwells the Church as a whole and every individual in it (Eph. 2:22).

Third, there is “one hope of your calling.” We who are in the Church do not have different hopes; we all have the same hope of heaven (Eph. 2:6). There is a different hope held out in the Bible for Israel: an everlasting kingdom on the earth. However, our one hope and eternal calling in Christ is heaven.

Fourth, there is “one Lord.” The same Lord over you is the same Lord over me and all of us in the Church: the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Head of the Body (Eph. 1:22-23), and we are each called to submit to Him and His loving Lordship.

Fifth, there is “one faith.” We do not follow multiple or different faiths. There is not one faith for one part of the Body and another faith for a different part of the Body. There are other faiths to be found in the Bible that were to be followed and obeyed in the past, however. For example, for 1500 years, in order to be accepted of God, Israel was required to trust and obey the law. However, in the dispensation of grace, there is one faith, one body of truth for us to trust and follow: the faith that was committed to the Apostle Paul for the Church under grace (Eph. 3:1-9).

Sixth, there is “one baptism.” There are multiple baptisms taught in the Bible: the baptisms and washings required under the law, the water baptism of John the Baptist, the water baptism of Peter at Pentecost, and numerous spiritual baptisms. However, in the dispensation of grace, there is one baptism, the baptism that the Holy Spirit performs at our salvation (1 Cor. 12:13).

Seventh, there is “one God and Father of all” of the Body. There is one God in three Persons—all three Members of the Godhead being mentioned in this passage—and we all worship and serve the same God. God the Father is “above all” the Body, works “through all” the Body, and is “in…all” the Body.

It is important to look at the “one baptism” in light of the other six ones in the list, because there obviously are not multiple Bodies, various Holy Spirits, nor several hopes of our calling; there are not lots of Lords, numerous faiths for us to follow under grace, or more than one God the Father. There is only one of each of these for us. Likewise, there are not multiple or two different baptisms, but only one for the Church today. And this baptism is spiritual; it is a Spirit baptism.

“In Christ” is a blessed prepositional phrase and is stated frequently in Ephesians (Eph. 1:1,3; 2:6; etc.) and throughout Paul’s epistles. How does one get “in Christ”? The answer: by the Holy Spirit’s baptism. The Holy Spirit identifies, unites, and places us into Christ the instant we trust the gospel of grace.

We firmly believe in baptism. However, there is only “one baptism” today; Ephesians 4:3,5 teaches that the spiritual baptism is what is to unite us as the one Body of the Church today. The one baptism is to be what it stands for, proclaims, and causes us to rejoice in continually, because the truth of this baptism is an extraordinary blessing.

One [Unifying] Baptism

“Three boys are in the schoolyard bragging of how great their fathers are.“The first one says, ‘Well, my father runs the fastest. He can fire an arrow, and start to run, I tell you, he gets there before the arrow.’ “The second boy says, ‘Ha! You think that’s fast! My father is a hunter. He can shoot

bereanbiblesociety.org

I prefer to be a stickler to "Biblianeze terminologies" @Lizbeth and the ancient rabbinical culture and customs on the Mikveh and the purpose of John's baptism.
Shalom
J.

Which baptismS are foundational for the believer? I'm rejoicing and thanking God for just now, as I was writing and pondering, giving me that verse which clears up my fogginess and clinches this for me.

 

[Johann]

Which baptismS are foundational for the believer? I'm rejoicing and thanking God for just now, as I was writing and pondering, giving me that verse which clears up my fogginess and clinches this for me.

Ephesians 4:5 (NKJV):
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

This is foundational Sister.

 

[Lizbeth]

Ephesians 4:5 (NKJV):
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

This is foundational Sister.

Yes, one foundation, which consists of a few things. :)

 

[Lizbeth]

Leave that behind yes.

As long as that is not taken in a literal sense, because we sure do need that foundation to be building upon it. But in a sense as to not be camping out there sitting on our laurels, but keep growing from there and reaching for what lies ahead.

Amen to that! (not die to self though) We are to deny self. Without self we are not alive.

I agree...it is just a manner of speaking, but it would be better expressed differently to be more accurate, if I am not too old to change that habit. ;)

 

[Johann]

As long as that is not taken in a literal sense, because we sure do need that foundation to be building upon it. But in a sense as to not be camping out there sitting on our laurels, but keep growing from there and reaching for what lies ahead.


I agree...it is just a manner of speaking, but it would be better expressed differently to be more accurate, if I am not too old to change that habit. ;)

Matthew 16:24 (NKJV):
"Then Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.'"

Luke 9:23 (NKJV):
"Then He said to them all, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.'"

Galatians 2:20 (NKJV):
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

Galatians 5:24 (NKJV):
"And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Colossians 3:3 (NKJV):
"For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

Romans 6:6 (NKJV):
"Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

Love to go into the Greek Grammar on these verses and passages but most are not so inclined..
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Matthew 16:24 (NKJV):
"Then Jesus said to His disciples, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.'"

Luke 9:23 (NKJV):
"Then He said to them all, 'If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.'"

Galatians 2:20 (NKJV):
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

Galatians 5:24 (NKJV):
"And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

Colossians 3:3 (NKJV):
"For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God."

Romans 6:6 (NKJV):
"Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

Love to go into the Greek Grammar on these verses and passages but most are not so inclined..
J.

You go ahead and post the grammar if you think it would be helpful. I think Hepzibah will be able to follow it.....as for me I will take in what I can and just leave what I can't.

Would it be accurate to say that our old self must die so that we live from a renewed self, as it were? That renewed self is of Christ in us, not our old man. It is not really the literal annihilation of self but rather that self be renewed. Perishing is about the destruction of body and soul.........all our bodies will die regardless but salvation is about the saving of the soul not the annihilation of it. Self being the soul..? Jesus spoke about losing our "life" in this world in order to save it. The Greek word psyche translated as "life" here means "soul".

Matthew 10:38-39

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

He that findeth his life (pyche/soul) shall lose it: and he that loseth his life (psyche/soul) for my sake shall find it.

 

[Hepzibah]

Copied from the thread "Death to Self" @Lizbeth @Johann

I do not agree with the popular idea that we must be 'dead to self'. In fact. that idea is from philosophy as found in eastern religions like Buddhism, who are told that there is no self, it is a construct of our minds and we should search for 'no self' to achieve happiness in this life.

This site explains it:

Anātman, the Buddhist Doctrine of No-Self: Why ‘You’ Do Not Really Exist | Philosophy Break​

Often misunderstood as denying personhood, the Buddhist doctrine of no-self (anātman) simply aims to deflate the grasping ego. By seeing ourselves for what we really are — bundles of ever-changing processes — we can undermine anxiety, and live more peaceful lives.

philosophybreak.com


It might seem to be nothing important, but we must note that scripture does not confirm it. Rather scripture says that we must DENY ourselves, and the flesh or old man should be crucified. Old man is not self.

“Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires” (Galatians 5:24).

And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23

And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. John 12:24

There is no verse that says it is self that is to die. Self is neutral and contains the will. It serves something or someone. Self is given a new master when flesh has been crucified. As Christianity is now being invaded on all sides and poisoned within, we much be doubly sure we follow what scripture says.

Eastern thoughts have been coming into the church for a long time and if we suddenly get Christians to be like Buddhists and longing for annihilation, what other points will they join on? It is a big deal which will perhaps increase as time goes on towards the one world religion.

We were crucified with Christ 2.000 years ago. Our old man, that is to say, the life of Adam, is already there, but in order to actuate that fact, we must 'reckon' it. That is to say we must give our consent to it and that usually comes when we have been dealt with in the 'wilderness' and brought to naught, seeing that ourselves in the flesh is cursed and worth nothing. As long as we have any fleshy desires, we will not be ready for the 'reckoning'. The sin is selfishness.

So it is not a case of working towards crucifying the flesh (and certainly not self) but walking in that fact, that is to say, believing that we have been delivered from sin, not only as a position but as a reality. To step out in faith.

If we say we cannot stop sinning then we never will.



From APAK

"If precision and the truth in scripture is the aim of this thread, then its title should read something more like, ' Are you Dead to your old self today' or 'Have you Denied your old self yet.' And that would indicate to me, have I been reborn yet ...

And to extend this thought even further...

Again, this phrase 'die to self' or 'dead to self' is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible for good reason. As you said, your-self 'never' dies, it is transformed. However, as I also just said, the concept of dying to (old) self is related to the idea of being born again and devotion of faith. The closest thing found in the Bible is where Paul writes, “our old self was crucified” (Romans 6:6).

That is the INNER man that has been transformed and being crucified and transformed, not the outer man. The outer man is the shell and vessel for the inner man that reflects the outward condition of the inner man or self. It does as the inner man believes. And this OUTER vessel is the physical and visible reason, the bane for not having a perfect spiritual life.

Figuratively smashing, crushing, fracturing, or dislocating joints as used in scripture as a REFELCTION of the condition or state of the inner man or self; our heart is then hurting, humble and weak. We cry out to God for help as we read in Job. The human physical body is weak and easily hurt..as out inner man is also.

Here are some other key points to consider:

The Bible teaches that we are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and that our old selves have been crucified with Christ (Romans 6:6).

The Bible encourages believers to live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (Romans 8:1-14).

The Bible teaches that we should deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow Jesus (Matthew 16:24; Luke 9:23).

More Bible verses relevant to the concept of dying to ones 'old' self include:

Romans 6:6 - “We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin”

2 Corinthians 5:17 - “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old (added: self) has gone, the new is here!”

Galatians 2:20 - “I have been crucified with Christ and I (added : old self) no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

Romans 8:1-14 - “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because of the sinful nature, God did through the miracle of faith—the law of the Spirit of life made me free from the law of sin and death (added" my old self).”

And of course it’s important to note that the concept of dying to ones old self is not a one-time event, but rather a process of continually denying the flesh (added: old self) and living according to the Spirit." from the thread called 'Death to Self!"

 

[Johann]

You go ahead and post the grammar if you think it would be helpful. I think Hepzibah will be able to follow it.....as for me I will take in what I can and just leave what I can't.

Would it be accurate to say that our old self must die so that we live from a renewed self, as it were? That renewed self is of Christ in us, not our old man. It is not really the literal annihilation of self but rather that self be renewed. Perishing is about the destruction of body and soul.........all our bodies will die regardless but salvation is about the saving of the soul not the annihilation of it. Self being the soul..? Jesus spoke about losing our "life" in this world in order to save it. The Greek word psyche translated as "life" here means "soul".

Matthew 10:38-39

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

He that findeth his life (pyche/soul) shall lose it: and he that loseth his life (psyche/soul) for my sake shall find it.

You go ahead and post the grammar if you think it would be helpful. I think Hepzibah will be able to follow it.....as for me I will take in what I can and just leave what I can't.

Would it be accurate to say that our old self must die so that we live from a renewed self, as it were? That renewed self is of Christ in us, not our old man. It is not really the literal annihilation of self but rather that self be renewed. Perishing is about the destruction of body and soul.........all our bodies will die regardless but salvation is about the saving of the soul not the annihilation of it. Self being the soul..? Jesus spoke about losing our "life" in this world in order to save it. The Greek word psyche translated as "life" here means "soul".

Matthew 10:38-39

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

He that findeth his life (pyche/soul) shall lose it: and he that loseth his life (psyche/soul) for my sake shall find it.

 

[Johann]

Old man is not self.

Understanding "Old Man" and "Self"
Romans 6:6 (NKJV): "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin." In this passage, the "old man" is linked to the "body of sin," which suggests that it refers to the entire state of being under the power of sin, including one's former identity and lifestyle. This "old man" is crucified with Christ, symbolizing the believer's break from the past life of sin.

Ephesians 4:22-24 (NKJV): Paul instructs believers to "put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness." Here, the "old man" refers to the former conduct and way of life shaped by sin and corruption, while the "new man" refers to the new life in Christ characterized by righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:9-10 (NKJV): "Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him." Again, the "old man" is associated with past behaviors that are inconsistent with the new identity in Christ.

Is the "Old Man" the Same as "Self"?
The "old man" and "self" are related but not identical concepts. The "old man" specifically refers to the sinful, unregenerate nature that is connected to a person's former life before conversion. It encompasses the habits, desires, and identity that were shaped by sin and rebellion against God.

"Self," in a more general sense, refers to one's individual personhood or identity. In Christian thought, "self" can have a broader meaning that includes the entire person, not just the sinful aspect. When Christians speak of "dying to self," they are typically referring to the process of surrendering their personal will, desires, and independence to God, which may involve rejecting the remnants of the "old man" but also includes embracing a new identity in Christ.

Therefore, the "old man" is not exactly the same as "self," but rather it represents the sinful aspect of one's identity that is to be put to death. The "self" that remains is to be transformed and renewed in the image of Christ, reflecting the "new man." The believer is not called to annihilate their entire self, but rather to be renewed and conformed to the likeness of Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit.

The explanations provided for the Greek terms παλαιὸς ἄνθρωπος ("old man") and ἐγώ / αὐτός ("self") are based on well-established Greek lexical resources and theological interpretations found in standard New Testament exegesis. However, for a more scholarly reference, here are some key sources:

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG): This lexicon is a primary resource for understanding the meanings of Greek words in the New Testament. It provides detailed definitions and contexts for terms like παλαιὸς (palaios) and ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos).

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Thayer's Lexicon is another well-respected source that offers definitions and explanations of Greek words found in the New Testament, including παλαιὸς and ἄνθρωπος.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Edited by Gerhard Kittel, this multi-volume work delves deeply into the theological significance of Greek terms, including a detailed discussion of ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos) and its use in different contexts, as well as the concept of the "old man."

New Testament Commentaries: Commentaries on Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians by scholars like Douglas Moo, F. F. Bruce, and Peter T. O'Brien also discuss the theological implications of παλαιὸς ἄνθρωπος and how it relates to the concept of the "old self" in the context of Paul's letters.

Fine line between sarx and ego, psuche and pneuma.