The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

Yes His followers have His Spirit but not dwelling deep within. Otherwise they would have it all at their fingertips. The fruit is there bam! when one arises with Christ.

So I've chosen to do that, looking for God to empower my choice, to make it actually happen, and He has. Fear is gone. Momentary blips, just, refocus back on God. No mind race, no compulsions, no obsessions, well, momentary blips, literally momentary. And remind myself, God is with me, and He loves me, and I am fully reconciled, forever, and now He is here with me to form me the way He wants me to be. Peaceful and patient, trusting Him in the face of every difficulty.

It's been in the forefront of my mind how I'd not really died to myself, I was too hung up on being assured of a continuing income, of success in my property repair efforts, all these things. I'm learning to let go of all these things.

It's like I'm learning to give everything over to the LORD now that I have virtually nothing left! But I know that don't worry God! He is able.

Amen! That is the right attitude!

It's the knowledge that I'm forever and reconciled, forever reborn, free from my flesh, free to commune with God, that empowers my faith. My faith is exactly about this very thing. That Jesus has done all that was needed, and given this to me, and now works tirelessly with me to bring me into this life.

If I believed that I truly can not walk in the Spirit until something more happened, that would be truly depressing indeed!

As I have said there is nothing to be achieved for waiting for the fullness. Obeying immediately and to the dot of everything that is coming from within is the way forward. One of the things that he Lord spoke to me about was in returning the trolly back correctly in the car park of the supermarket. I had used the excuse of saving the little energy that I had but really it was laziness. He really blessed me for that! It is the small fruits that the foxes eat.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Absolutely, it’s possible for a believer to still walk in the flesh without fully realizing that they’re supposed to be dead to their old self.

Paul talks about this in Romans 6:3-4, where he says, “Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we may live a new way of life.”

It’s like Paul is reminding believers that they’ve already died to their old ways through Christ, but they need to continually live out that reality.

Colossians 3:3-5 also touches on this when it says, “For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God... Therefore, put to death what is earthly in you.”

So, it’s about realizing and appropriating what Christ has already done, rather than seeking something additional. Wouldn’t you agree, sister?

Yes but this bit is important:

Therefore, put to death what is earthly in you

And that is where most are wrong: they think that it is a gradual death. We are to put off and put on, like a coat, which is done in one action not slowly over many years.

It's just that the putting on seems like another blessing.

 

[Johann]

Yes but this bit is important:

Therefore, put to death what is earthly in you

And that is where most are wrong: they think that it is a gradual death. We are to put off and put on, like a coat, which is done in one action not slowly over many years.

It's just that the putting on seems like another blessing.

I understand that it's sometimes challenging to convey these points without a face-to-face discussion, but I can definitely see where you're coming from if you agree with the scriptures given. I'm with you on the belief that a believer shouldn’t live in a state of ongoing sinning. For me, the aorist verbs in these passages really clarify it all. They show that Paul is describing our death to sin as a completed, once-for-all event that happened when we were united with Christ. It’s not something gradual, but a decisive moment that we need to recognize and live out in our daily lives.

In the Pauline passages that speak of believers having died to their old selves, the grammar and morphology are crucial for understanding that this death is a definitive, once-for-all event rather than a gradual process.

Romans 6:2, 6:6, 6:10-11
Romans 6:2 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“How can we who died to sin still live in it?”

Greek Phrase: ὅτι ἀπεθάνομεν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ (hoti apethanomen tē hamartiāi)
Key Verb: ἀπεθάνομεν (apethanomen)
Tense: Aorist
Mood: Indicative
Voice: Active
Person/Number: First Person Plural
Explanation: The verb ἀπεθάνομεν is in the aorist tense, which in Greek often indicates a completed action that occurred at a specific point in time. The indicative mood confirms that this is a factual statement. The use of the aorist tense here conveys that the death to sin is a past, completed event for the believer, not an ongoing process.

Romans 6:6 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him, in order that the body of sin may be done away with, so that we may no longer be enslaved to sin;”

Greek Phrase: ὁ παλαιὸς ἡμῶν ἄνθρωπος συνεσταυρώθη (ho palaios hēmōn anthrōpos sunestaurōthē)
Key Verb: συνεσταυρώθη (sunestaurōthē)
Tense: Aorist
Mood: Indicative
Voice: Passive
Person/Number: Third Person Singular
Explanation: Again, the aorist tense is used in συνεσταυρώθη (sunestaurōthē), indicating that the "crucifixion" of the old self happened at a specific moment in the past. The passive voice implies that this action was done to us, indicating God's initiative and power in crucifying our old self with Christ. The completed nature of the action further emphasizes that this is not a gradual process but a definitive event.

Romans 6:10-11 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“For the death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.”

Greek Phrase (6:10): ὃ γὰρ ἀπέθανεν, τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ ἀπέθανεν ἐφάπαξ (ho gar apethanen, tē hamartiāi apethanen ephapax)
Key Phrase: ἐφάπαξ (ephapax)
Meaning: "once for all"
Greek Phrase (6:11): λογίζεσθε ἑαυτοὺς νεκροὺς μὲν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ ζῶντας δὲ τῷ θεῷ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (logizesthe heautous nekrous men tē hamartiāi zōntas de tō theō en Christō Iēsou)
Key Word: νεκροὺς (nekrous)
Meaning: "dead" or "having died"
Explanation: The phrase ἐφάπαξ (ephapax) in verse 10 is significant as it underscores the finality and completeness of Christ's death to sin—"once for all." This directly connects to the believer’s participation in that death, as believers are exhorted in verse 11 to consider themselves dead to sin. The term νεκροὺς (nekrous) here is an adjective that describes a state of being that is already realized, not something that is becoming true over time.

Colossians 3:3
Colossians 3:3 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”

Greek Phrase: ἀπεθάνετε γὰρ καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ὑμῶν κέκρυπται σὺν τῷ Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ Θεῷ (apethanete gar kai hē zōē hymōn kekryptai syn tō Christō en tō Theō)
Key Verb: ἀπεθάνετε (apethanete)
Tense: Aorist
Mood: Indicative
Voice: Active
Person/Number: Second Person Plural
Explanation: The verb ἀπεθάνετε (apethanete) is also in the aorist tense, indicative mood, which again emphasizes a completed action that took place in the past. The believers’ death to their old selves is presented as a fact that has already occurred. The aorist tense is critical in demonstrating that this death is not an ongoing process but a definitive, once-for-all event.


The consistent use of the aorist tense in these passages demonstrates that Paul is describing the believer's death to sin as a completed, once-for-all event that happened at the moment of their union with Christ in His death. This grammatical emphasis aligns with the theological assertion that this death is not something gradual but a definitive reality that believers must recognize and live out in their daily lives.

Shalom
J.

 

[marks]

It is about appropriating what has already been gained for us on the cross but it means a death to our old ways.

This sums up what I believe very neatly!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Verse of the day at Bible.com:

2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I believe Paul still lived in his flesh body, in which sin lives, the corruption of the flesh, but that Paul had overcome it, living in a state of apparent sinlessness.

He'd learned . . . sin lives in my flesh, but I'm dead to my flesh, so that doesn't matter, it has no hold on me. Walking in the Spirit gives us the experiential reality of the spiritual reality accomplished in Christ's death.

Again, a new creation in the inner man, being revealed in the outer man.

2 Corinthians 4:10-11 KJV
10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

We bear in our body His death, in this way His life is revealed in us. Made manifest.

The reality of ES? Yes, I think so, but with that caveat that it's not for us to dwell on, only that we follow the Spirit in whatever He wants of us, to stop this, to start that, whatever it is, but not dwell on sinlessness or not, as we don't know ourselves well enough, and can have a tendency to lie to ourselves.

I think this is simply one more thing to leave in the Lord's hands, whether or not I'm doing all I should. If there is something, He is totally able to express that to me. Though I compare myself to the fruit of the Spirit, if this isn't there, I'm not there, and I need to return.

There is so much I think we agree about concerning what this life experience is. Only we differ on these couple of things. But to be clear, I remain convince we both have our eye set on the same prize. I've come to think, the best way to know Jesus is to obey Him. Our greatest impediment to obeying Him is the tumult we experience from our very corrupted flesh.

I consider the physical dampage of cPTSD part of the corruption of the flesh. Being this way is like being a lab rat to learn about flesh and sanctification. It's so bad my only acceptable answer is to transcend it.

And so I'm really hoping you will consider that if you can accept that He's accepted you even as you are, completely, fully, because it's not about you, it's about Jesus, that He became sin so that we can become God's righteousness, that you will consider whether you truly can walk in His resurrection power, even now, even by believing.

If Theosis truly is a second blessing by which we are united to God in such a way as to be completely healed in our psuche, and that this is the proper goal of our Christian life, I don't understand how we would ever fall from it, or why God would remove it.

I more think it's something God uses sometimes, in my case, to encourage me, to show me what it's like, to give me a goal. In the case of the elders and overseers, to provide spiritual leadership for the church. I think this is why following the criteria for choosing elders and overseers is so important. We can't see the heart, but if all those conditions are true, it gives a good indication.

I think sanctification is the proper pursuit for the Christian. The more we come to see God's beauty in holiness the more we desire it in our heart. God came to me, decades after receiving Jesus. I still believe I was born again in 1981, because I was different. And God has moved in my life at various times over the years. But never like in 2017 when He started the heavy lifting.

Ephesians 4:11-15 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

I think this gives the general pattern, that we minister to each other as we mature.

Much love!

Edit to add . . . transparency . . . I never want to seem like what I'm not . . . here it is the end of the afternoon and I have the physical feeling of anxiety, though I quite my mind to not worry, to trust in God.

My first panic attack some years ago left me with a "chest stress injury", the feeling of fear as the chest tightens, if it's strong enough it leaves a musculoskeletal injury. Any little apprehension would re-injure, until I could manage about 2 weeks without any feelings of fear or anxiety. It was a very interesting time!

Now sometimes I can have that physical feeling without an emotional source. Only it tends to drag the emotions into is, as if I did have a reason to worry. And I by no means assume that I'm not missing something, that I need to be paying attention to! So things can seem complicated. But for me the final answer is to trust God in this also.

Much love!

Verse of the day at Bible.com:

2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Much love!

So we gradually cleanse ourselves?

 

[Johann]

Verse of the day at Bible.com:

2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Much love!

For the readers reading this verse-is it a once off event or process. You have the Aorist and Present in this verse.

These promises (tautas tas epaggelias). So many and so precious (2Pe_2:4 epaggelmata; Heb_11:39.).
Let us cleanse ourselves (katharisōmen heautous). Old Greek used kathairō (in N.T. only in Joh_15:2, to prune). In Koiné[28928]š katharizō occurs in inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing (Deissmann, Bible Studies, p. 216f.). Paul includes himself in this volitive aorist subjunctive.
From all defilement (apo pantos molusmou). Ablative alone would have done, but with apo it is plainer as in Heb_9:14. Molusmos is a late word from molunō, to stain (see note on 1Co_8:7), to pollute. In the lxx, Plutarch, Josephus. It includes all sorts of filthiness, physical, moral, mental, ceremonial, “of flesh and spirit.” Missionaries in China and India can appreciate the atmosphere of pollution in Corinth, for instance.
Perfecting holiness (epitelountes hagiosunēn). Not merely negative goodness (cleansing), but aggressive and progressive (present tense of epiteleō) holiness, not a sudden attainment of complete holiness, but a continuous process (1Th_3:13; Rom_1:4; Rom_1:6).
RWP.


{a) [these promises] The promises of 2Cor. 7:16-18.

{b) [let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God] Six conditions of the promises (2Cor. 6:14 -- 2Cor. 7:1):

1. Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers (2Cor. 6:14-16).

2. Come out from among them (2Cor. 6:17).

3. Be separate from them (2Cor. 6:17).

4. Touch not the unclean thing (2Cor. 6:17).

5. Cleanse self of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit (2Cor. 7:1; Mk. 7:19-21; Rom. 1:18-32; 1Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; Col. 3:5-10).

6. Perfect holiness in the fear of God (2Cor. 7:1; Eph. 1:4; 4:24; Gal. 5:24; Rom. 6:14-23; 8:1-13; Heb. 12:12-15).
Thanks
J.

 

[marks]

They show that Paul is describing our death to sin as a completed, once-for-all event that happened when we were united with Christ. It’s not something gradual, but a decisive moment that we need to recognize and live out in our daily lives.

Exactly!

Much love!

 

[marks]

So we gradually cleanse ourselves?

I think we do it however we can, according as God has worked within us.

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (katergadzomai) your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13) For it is God which worketh (ergon) in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We do the performance of the work God has worked in us. He is working into us both the desire and ability to do what pleases Him.

Katergadzomai is in the present tense, an ongoing thing. The voice is what's called Middle Deponant, which means it can be either Reflexive, the action is done upon one's self, or passive, the action is received from another. Either it's being worked out in us (passive) or we are working it out in ourselves (reflexive). By the context I believe this is reflexive. @Johann

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Here, purifies himself is present active, we do this continuously.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 KJV
20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

"Purge himself" is in the Aorist, indicating something to be done, and then it's done.

So it seems to me both senses are given, that there are things we can do that are then done, like in 2 Timothy. Others that appear ongoing, as in the others.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Katergadzomai is in the present tense, an ongoing thing. The voice is what's called Middle Deponant, which means it can be either Reflexive, the action is done upon one's self, or passive, the action is received from another. Either it's being worked out in us (passive) or we are working it out in ourselves (reflexive). By the context I believe this is reflexive.

I can agree as to Reflexive.

The verb κατεργάζομαι (katergazomai) in 2 Corinthians 7:1 is indeed in the present tense, middle voice. However, the concept of "middle deponent" might need clarification. In Greek, deponent verbs are those that appear in the middle or passive voice but have an active meaning. Κατεργάζομαι is such a verb, meaning "to work out," "to produce," or "to accomplish."

Voice and Reflexivity:
Middle Voice: In the middle voice, the subject is often involved in the action in a way that emphasizes personal interest or participation. This can sometimes indicate reflexivity, where the action is done by the subject to or for themselves.
Reflexive Middle: If κατεργάζομαι is interpreted reflexively, it would mean "we are working out [holiness] for ourselves," indicating that the action is being done by the subject upon themselves.

In 2 Corinthians 7:1, the context is about believers cleansing themselves from all defilement and perfecting holiness. The reflexive interpretation makes sense here: believers are being urged to take active responsibility for purifying themselves and working out their holiness in their lives.

Believers are continually involved in this process, actively engaging in the work of purifying themselves and growing in holiness over time. The combination of the present tense and the reflexive nature of the middle voice underscores that this is something believers are called to do regularly and persistently in their lives.
TheseG3778 DPro-AFP Tautas Ταύτας thereforeG3767 Conj oun οὖν havingG2192 G5723 V-PPA-NMP echontes ἔχοντες -G3588 Art-AFP tas τὰς promises,G1860 N-AFP epangelias, ἐπαγγελίας, beloved,G27 Adj-VMP agapētoi, ἀγαπητοί, we should cleanseG2511 G5661 V-ASA-1P katharisōmen καθαρίσωμεν ourselvesG1438 RefPro-AM3P heautous ἑαυτοὺς fromG575 Prep apo ἀπὸ everyG3956 Adj-GMS pantos παντὸς defilementG3436 N-GMS molysmou μολυσμοῦ of fleshG4561 N-GFS sarkos σαρκὸς andG2532 Conj kai καὶ spirit,G4151 N-GNS pneumatos, πνεύματος, perfectingG2005 G5723 V-PPA-NMP epitelountes ἐπιτελοῦντες holinessG42 N-AFS hagiōsynēn ἁγιωσύνην inG1722 Prep en ἐν [the] fearG5401 N-DMS phobō φόβῳ of God.G2316 N-GMS Theou. Θεοῦ.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Greek Text and Key Verbs
ἐπιτελοῦντες ἁγιωσύνην (epitelountes hagiōsýnēn):
ἐπιτελοῦντες is a present active participle, meaning "perfecting" or "completing."
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
Tense: Present
So, ἐπιτελοῦντες is not in the middle voice; it’s in the active voice, indicating that believers are actively involved in the ongoing process of perfecting holiness.

However @marks

Middle Voice in This Context
The verb κατεργάζομαι (katergazomai) does indeed occur in other Pauline texts (e.g., Philippians 2:12: "work out your own salvation"), and it is in the middle voice there. However, 2 Corinthians 7:1 does not contain a middle voice verb. Instead, it contains active voice verbs that emphasize the believers' role in actively participating in the process of sanctification.

In 2 Corinthians 7:1, there is no middle voice verb. The verse uses active voice verbs to convey that believers should actively and continuously engage in the process of cleansing themselves and perfecting holiness. The idea of an ongoing, continuous action is conveyed by the present tense of these verbs.

Which does not detract the fact that the concept is both instantaneous AND ongoing.

 

[Johann]

I think we do it however we can, according as God has worked within us.

Philippians 2:12-13 KJV
12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (katergadzomai) your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13) For it is God which worketh (ergon) in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We do the performance of the work God has worked in us. He is working into us both the desire and ability to do what pleases Him.

Katergadzomai is in the present tense, an ongoing thing. The voice is what's called Middle Deponant, which means it can be either Reflexive, the action is done upon one's self, or passive, the action is received from another. Either it's being worked out in us (passive) or we are working it out in ourselves (reflexive). By the context I believe this is reflexive. @Johann

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Here, purifies himself is present active, we do this continuously.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 KJV
20) But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21) If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

"Purge himself" is in the Aorist, indicating something to be done, and then it's done.

So it seems to me both senses are given, that there are things we can do that are then done, like in 2 Timothy. Others that appear ongoing, as in the others.

Much love!

Yes, by the grace of God and indwelling Holy Spirit we gradually cleanse ourselves from all impediments-contrary to what @Hepzibah hold and believe.

 

[marks]

Indeed it is the day of judgement:

For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa. 2:1

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa. 13:6

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa. 13:9

And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing. Isa. 10:27

On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the people of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. 2And on that day, declares the LORD of Hosts, I will erase the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered. I will also remove the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land.

3And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not remain alive, because you have spoken falsely in the name of the LORD.’ When he prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will pierce him through.

4And on that day every prophet who prophesies will be ashamed of his vision, and he will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive. He will say, ‘I am not a prophet; I work the land, for I was purchased as a servant in my youth. 6 If someone asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your chest?’ he will answer, ‘These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends.’ Zech 13:1-6.

This is the terrible day when the Lord comes again, to each person according to His timing, and judges the person, who will either accept that judgement or quench the Holy Spirit in His work of convicting His people of their sin.

I just happen to think this is a misapplication of those passages. That they were given to speak of events future for the world, and not a metaphor of God's working in the believer.

I'm curious, and I don't want to get sidetracked, but just to know this, do you see the physical return of Jesus in the future, when He will regather the Israelites to their promised land?

This action of destruction by fire is required for the work of a man accepting the death of the old nature (crucified with Christ) where he is stripped of all of his old understanding so that he can be baptized into Christ. It is an ending of all things so the start of new things can begin.

I continue to think that we all go through this in various ways, different times in our lives, differing individual efficacy, all unique as are we.

For those who will not go through the fire, (held in sword that the cherubim hold to guard the way into paradise) then judgement lays on their heads as they chose to walk in the flesh instead. It is indeed a day of wrath for God's disobedient people.

I don't see any wrath coming upon God's children. When we go too far He has promised chastening, and that it will be effective. If that is so, then where is there a place for wrath?

I think the counter argument is that we can refuse His chastening, and in so doing, walk away, but the Bible doesn't leave that option open. IF we are His child, this is what He's promised.

This is the second coming of Christ, which was expected at any time, when written about in the old and new testaments with warnings. As for the end of time - who knows? We just guess. It is this life where we are to have our aims.

If the passages are actually speaking of Jesus' return physically to the earth, to gather, and judge, and establish His kingdom, if we apply them as metaphors for our Christian walk, might that not be misleading?

Like the wilderness walk. There are several ways it can be used to illustrate a Christian walk, and none of them seem to fit quite right.

We miss so much under this interpretation which consists of a small part of church history.

Maybe yes and maybe no. I'm all about the Bible and specifically what it says. I believe God said what He meant. The nonchristian won't understand it, and the Christian can understand it as God reveals it.

You have a passion to learn from the early church commentators, God actually cut me off from that. It was in 2001 that God touched my heart in such a way that I no longer wanted to read anything (I've been a constant and avid reader from 4 years old, at which time I was choosing my own books from the library.

I became completely disinterested in anything not the Bible, and completely fascinated to learn all I could about the Bible. It happened one afternoon sitting at my desk at home. I put down the Science Fiction I was in the middle of, and never picked it up again. Since then, it's all about the Bible itself.

I seek to know exactly what it does and doesn't say, and hang my hat on that.

I'm interested in other views, and on this topic especially. I'll still say this is the most important thing I can think of discussing, and with someone who is studied from a different direction that I, and someone who shares a similar burden in life, and someone who is as serious about this as I am, if not more so, this is truly a blessing for me!

I really believe God is working in this discussion.

I do not see Christians I have known over 50 years have what they need. And it just gets worse as they age, is what I see. There is something missing.

Yes, this is the Big Question. In others, in myself, why, If Christ is over all, do we not see all things yet under His feet.

Philippians 3:20-21 LITV
20) For our citizenship is in Heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21) who will transform our body of humiliation, for it to be conformed to His body of glory, according to the working of Him to be able even to subject all things under Himself.

Yes, He can do it! So why don't we see it yet? Crucifying the flesh . . . this seems the answer. God has all the power we need to do this, I believe we choose, and then live out that choice, counting on God to make it possible, to make it happen.

I can see how it can cause problems when a man who accepts he has been wrong on this, must ask himself 'what else have I been wrong over and can I ever trust my thoughts again'. This is part of the stripping away of everything to accept the new life in Christ.

Certainly!! We have to be humble, children, ready to be reproved and corrected over anything, according to the Lord's intent for us.

The things of the flesh include mans best thoughts and intentions. There is a discipline in walking in the Spirit that includes these things. I admit that I don't know it all, things are still opening up to me in the understanding of scripture since I began to see them through spiritual eyes whereas before it was in my own understanding.

I think some of our desires are good - food for energy and health - and some are not - that third piece of cake - walking crucified to me means that I reject my self-interest and submit my desires to God, looking for His leadership. I'll say also, and I'm sure this goes without saying, I certainly don't have it all figured out!

Indeed everything has been provided but we have to go through various deaths to get there I believe.

Yes, I agree, and am becoming much more focused this way.

It is all by faith.

You are tired because it is from your own strength you are doing it. In God's strength we can do all things as Paul did. The fight is over and peace reigns.

Agreed. And that's what I seek.

As I have said, saying it is a second blessing is misleading. It is about appropriating what has already been gained for us on the cross but it means a death to our old ways.

Amen!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I can agree as to Reflexive.

The verb κατεργάζομαι (katergazomai) in 2 Corinthians 7:1 is indeed in the present tense, middle voice. However, the concept of "middle deponent" might need clarification. In Greek, deponent verbs are those that appear in the middle or passive voice but have an active meaning. Κατεργάζομαι is such a verb, meaning "to work out," "to produce," or "to accomplish."

Voice and Reflexivity:
Middle Voice: In the middle voice, the subject is often involved in the action in a way that emphasizes personal interest or participation. This can sometimes indicate reflexivity, where the action is done by the subject to or for themselves.
Reflexive Middle: If κατεργάζομαι is interpreted reflexively, it would mean "we are working out [holiness] for ourselves," indicating that the action is being done by the subject upon themselves.

In 2 Corinthians 7:1, the context is about believers cleansing themselves from all defilement and perfecting holiness. The reflexive interpretation makes sense here: believers are being urged to take active responsibility for purifying themselves and working out their holiness in their lives.

Believers are continually involved in this process, actively engaging in the work of purifying themselves and growing in holiness over time. The combination of the present tense and the reflexive nature of the middle voice underscores that this is something believers are called to do regularly and persistently in their lives.
TheseG3778 DPro-AFP Tautas Ταύτας thereforeG3767 Conj oun οὖν havingG2192 G5723 V-PPA-NMP echontes ἔχοντες -G3588 Art-AFP tas τὰς promises,G1860 N-AFP epangelias, ἐπαγγελίας, beloved,G27 Adj-VMP agapētoi, ἀγαπητοί, we should cleanseG2511 G5661 V-ASA-1P katharisōmen καθαρίσωμεν ourselvesG1438 RefPro-AM3P heautous ἑαυτοὺς fromG575 Prep apo ἀπὸ everyG3956 Adj-GMS pantos παντὸς defilementG3436 N-GMS molysmou μολυσμοῦ of fleshG4561 N-GFS sarkos σαρκὸς andG2532 Conj kai καὶ spirit,G4151 N-GNS pneumatos, πνεύματος, perfectingG2005 G5723 V-PPA-NMP epitelountes ἐπιτελοῦντες holinessG42 N-AFS hagiōsynēn ἁγιωσύνην inG1722 Prep en ἐν [the] fearG5401 N-DMS phobō φόβῳ of God.G2316 N-GMS Theou. Θεοῦ.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Greek Text and Key Verbs
ἐπιτελοῦντες ἁγιωσύνην (epitelountes hagiōsýnēn):
ἐπιτελοῦντες is a present active participle, meaning "perfecting" or "completing."
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
Tense: Present
So, ἐπιτελοῦντες is not in the middle voice; it’s in the active voice, indicating that believers are actively involved in the ongoing process of perfecting holiness.

However @marks

Middle Voice in This Context
The verb κατεργάζομαι (katergazomai) does indeed occur in other Pauline texts (e.g., Philippians 2:12: "work out your own salvation"), and it is in the middle voice there. However, 2 Corinthians 7:1 does not contain a middle voice verb. Instead, it contains active voice verbs that emphasize the believers' role in actively participating in the process of sanctification.

In 2 Corinthians 7:1, there is no middle voice verb. The verse uses active voice verbs to convey that believers should actively and continuously engage in the process of cleansing themselves and perfecting holiness. The idea of an ongoing, continuous action is conveyed by the present tense of these verbs.

Which does not detract the fact that the concept is both instantaneous AND ongoing.

Thank you!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Colossians 3:5-10 LITV
5) Then put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil lust, and covetousness, which is idolatry;
6) on account of which things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience,
7) among whom you also walked at one time, when you were living in these.
8) But now, you also, put off all these things: wrath, anger, malice, evil-speaking, shameful speech out of your mouth.
9) Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his practices,
10) and having put on the new, having been renewed in full knowledge according to the image of the One creating him,

The things of the flesh include mans best thoughts and intentions. There is a discipline in walking in the Spirit that includes these things. I admit that I don't know it all, things are still opening up to me in the understanding of scripture since I began to see them through spiritual eyes whereas before it was in my own understanding.

In this case these things are specified being sinful, fornication, lying, all these.

We've died and risen with Christ, we are hid with Him, we will appear with Him in glory, this will happen. So therefore put to death your members (body parts) that are upon the earth, these things are sinful.

I'm coming to see mortifying the flesh including any attachment to outcomes that affect me, to just trust that He is in control of my circumstances.

Like the hymn, Trust His Heart,

God is too wise to be mistaken
God is too good to be unkind
So when you don't understand
When don't see his plan
When you can't trace his hand
Trust His Heart

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Taking the weekend off. See you Monday!

 

[marks]

Taking the weekend off. See you Monday!

God bless!

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I understand that it's sometimes challenging to convey these points without a face-to-face discussion, but I can definitely see where you're coming from if you agree with the scriptures given. I'm with you on the belief that a believer shouldn’t live in a state of ongoing sinning. For me, the aorist verbs in these passages really clarify it all. They show that Paul is describing our death to sin as a completed, once-for-all event that happened when we were united with Christ. It’s not something gradual, but a decisive moment that we need to recognize and live out in our daily lives.

In the Pauline passages that speak of believers having died to their old selves, the grammar and morphology are crucial for understanding that this death is a definitive, once-for-all event rather than a gradual process.

Romans 6:2, 6:6, 6:10-11
Romans 6:2 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“How can we who died to sin still live in it?”

Greek Phrase: ὅτι ἀπεθάνομεν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ (hoti apethanomen tē hamartiāi)
Key Verb: ἀπεθάνομεν (apethanomen)
Tense: Aorist
Mood: Indicative
Voice: Active
Person/Number: First Person Plural
Explanation: The verb ἀπεθάνομεν is in the aorist tense, which in Greek often indicates a completed action that occurred at a specific point in time. The indicative mood confirms that this is a factual statement. The use of the aorist tense here conveys that the death to sin is a past, completed event for the believer, not an ongoing process.

Romans 6:6 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him, in order that the body of sin may be done away with, so that we may no longer be enslaved to sin;”

Greek Phrase: ὁ παλαιὸς ἡμῶν ἄνθρωπος συνεσταυρώθη (ho palaios hēmōn anthrōpos sunestaurōthē)
Key Verb: συνεσταυρώθη (sunestaurōthē)
Tense: Aorist
Mood: Indicative
Voice: Passive
Person/Number: Third Person Singular
Explanation: Again, the aorist tense is used in συνεσταυρώθη (sunestaurōthē), indicating that the "crucifixion" of the old self happened at a specific moment in the past. The passive voice implies that this action was done to us, indicating God's initiative and power in crucifying our old self with Christ. The completed nature of the action further emphasizes that this is not a gradual process but a definitive event.

Romans 6:10-11 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“For the death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.”

Greek Phrase (6:10): ὃ γὰρ ἀπέθανεν, τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ ἀπέθανεν ἐφάπαξ (ho gar apethanen, tē hamartiāi apethanen ephapax)
Key Phrase: ἐφάπαξ (ephapax)
Meaning: "once for all"
Greek Phrase (6:11): λογίζεσθε ἑαυτοὺς νεκροὺς μὲν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ ζῶντας δὲ τῷ θεῷ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (logizesthe heautous nekrous men tē hamartiāi zōntas de tō theō en Christō Iēsou)
Key Word: νεκροὺς (nekrous)
Meaning: "dead" or "having died"
Explanation: The phrase ἐφάπαξ (ephapax) in verse 10 is significant as it underscores the finality and completeness of Christ's death to sin—"once for all." This directly connects to the believer’s participation in that death, as believers are exhorted in verse 11 to consider themselves dead to sin. The term νεκροὺς (nekrous) here is an adjective that describes a state of being that is already realized, not something that is becoming true over time.

Colossians 3:3
Colossians 3:3 (Lexham Bible Translation):
“For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”

Greek Phrase: ἀπεθάνετε γὰρ καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ὑμῶν κέκρυπται σὺν τῷ Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ Θεῷ (apethanete gar kai hē zōē hymōn kekryptai syn tō Christō en tō Theō)
Key Verb: ἀπεθάνετε (apethanete)
Tense: Aorist
Mood: Indicative
Voice: Active
Person/Number: Second Person Plural
Explanation: The verb ἀπεθάνετε (apethanete) is also in the aorist tense, indicative mood, which again emphasizes a completed action that took place in the past. The believers’ death to their old selves is presented as a fact that has already occurred. The aorist tense is critical in demonstrating that this death is not an ongoing process but a definitive, once-for-all event.


The consistent use of the aorist tense in these passages demonstrates that Paul is describing the believer's death to sin as a completed, once-for-all event that happened at the moment of their union with Christ in His death. This grammatical emphasis aligns with the theological assertion that this death is not something gradual but a definitive reality that believers must recognize and live out in their daily lives.

Shalom
J.

Indeed. The problem is that believers who have come to Christ and accept the truth of scripture, imagine themselves as being in Christ, when the fruit of the union is not in their lives. We never receive a 'bit of' Christ. We are in the Spirit or not in the Spirit.

It needs the appropriation of what was gained for us and that involves repentance. The scripture is full of admonition of His people - IF my people will return, I will heal their land.

 

[Johann]

Indeed. The problem is that believers who have come to Christ and accept the truth of scripture, imagine themselves as being in Christ, when the fruit of the union is not in their lives. We never receive a 'bit of' Christ. We are in the Spirit or not in the Spirit.

It needs the appropriation of what was gained for us and that involves repentance. The scripture is full of admonition of His people - IF my people will return, I will heal their land.

I can agree with this-

Romans 8:9 (NKJV): "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

1 Corinthians 12:3 (NKJV): "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."

John 3:5 (NKJV): "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.'"

2 Corinthians 13:5 (NKJV): "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NKJV): "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

 

[Hepzibah]

I just happen to think this is a misapplication of those passages. That they were given to speak of events future for the world, and not a metaphor of God's working in the believer.

I'm curious, and I don't want to get sidetracked, but just to know this, do you see the physical return of Jesus in the future, when He will regather the Israelites to their promised land?

Jesus will return again, but this is not what the scripture teaches about a second coming.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Jhn 14:16-18

Jesus was speaking to His disciples telling them that He would come again to baptize them with the Holy Spirit. A second coming.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt 16:28

We have also got the apostles thinking that the kingdom would come in this life, in fact soon.

I do not speculate about his return and am shocked at how much time and energy many spend on working out the details and signs.

I continue to think that we all go through this in various ways, different times in our lives, differing individual efficacy, all unique as are we.

I don't see any wrath coming upon God's children.

Throughout the OT and into the new, God says the same thing - that He is angry with His people. Why would He tell the Laodiceans that He will spit them out of His mouth?

When we go too far He has promised chastening, and that it will be effective. If that is so, then where is there a place for wrath?

I think the counter argument is that we can refuse His chastening, and in so doing, walk away, but the Bible doesn't leave that option open. IF we are His child, this is what He's promised.


If the passages are actually speaking of Jesus' return physically to the earth, to gather, and judge, and establish His kingdom, if we apply them as metaphors for our Christian walk, might that not be misleading?

Like the wilderness walk. There are several ways it can be used to illustrate a Christian walk, and none of them seem to fit quite right.


Maybe yes and maybe no. I'm all about the Bible and specifically what it says. I believe God said what He meant. The nonchristian won't understand it, and the Christian can understand it as God reveals it.

You have a passion to learn from the early church commentators, God actually cut me off from that. It was in 2001 that God touched my heart in such a way that I no longer wanted to read anything (I've been a constant and avid reader from 4 years old, at which time I was choosing my own books from the library.

The reason why I think the early church is so important, is because so many doctrines have been added to the ones the ECF taught. Christianity is not progressive. They also held the doctrine of Theosis in high regards and was the main focus of the early church. People who believe in progressive Christian cannot be reached with the full gospel I believe.

I became completely disinterested in anything not the Bible, and completely fascinated to learn all I could about the Bible. It happened one afternoon sitting at my desk at home. I put down the Science Fiction I was in the middle of, and never picked it up again. Since then, it's all about the Bible itself.

I seek to know exactly what it does and doesn't say, and hang my hat on that.

You have great trust in your own understanding Mark. The thing about the further teachings or higher teachings, is that God destroys that in man when man has the revelation that even the best thoughts and intentions of the saints is tainted with flesh and must be from the Spirit alone. That man will never count his own understanding as anything. It is brought to nought.

I'm interested in other views, and on this topic especially. I'll still say this is the most important thing I can think of discussing, and with someone who is studied from a different direction that I, and someone who shares a similar burden in life, and someone who is as serious about this as I am, if not more so, this is truly a blessing for me!

I really believe God is working in this discussion.

Agree on the importance of the subject. Aquinas said (though I never quoted a Catholic before), if you have believe, you need no explanations. If you do not have believe, explanations will never work.

Yes, this is the Big Question. In others, in myself, why, If Christ is over all, do we not see all things yet under His feet.

Philippians 3:20-21 LITV
20) For our citizenship is in Heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21) who will transform our body of humiliation, for it to be conformed to His body of glory, according to the working of Him to be able even to subject all things under Himself.

Yes, He can do it! So why don't we see it yet? Crucifying the flesh . . . this seems the answer. God has all the power we need to do this, I believe we choose, and then live out that choice, counting on God to make it possible, to make it happen.


Certainly!! We have to be humble, children, ready to be reproved and corrected over anything, according to the Lord's intent for us.

I think some of our desires are good - food for energy and health - and some are not - that third piece of cake - walking crucified to me means that I reject my self-interest and submit my desires to God, looking for His leadership. I'll say also, and I'm sure this goes without saying, I certainly don't have it all figured out!


Yes, I agree, and am becoming much more focused this way.

Agreed. And that's what I seek.

Amen!

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

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