The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Johann]

@Johann
(Just for a brief moment of levity)
You put Augustine and Jerome both in the same post and they weren't fighting?

How could you? That's completely heretical.

Lol!

 

[Johann]

I am reposting this from earlier, to explain that Paul was not speaking of perfection in the sense it is mistakenly claimed by in those who oppose the walk of holiness:

Phil. 3:12. Not as though I had already attained

For I have not yet received the prize; for I have not finished my course; and I have a conflict still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. From the beginning of the 11th to the end of the 17th verse there is one continued allusion to the contests at the Olympic Games; exercises with which, and their laws, the Philippians were well acquainted. Philippians 3:11-17

either were already perfect

nor am I yet perfect; I am not yet crowned, in consequence of having suffered martyrdom. I am quite satisfied that the apostle here alludes to the Olympic Games, and the word is the proof; for is spoken of those who have completed their race, reached the goal, and are honoured with the prize. Thus it is used by Philo, Allegorical. Lib. iii. Page 101, edit. Mangey: "When is it, O soul, that thou shall appear to have the victory? Is it not when thou shall be perfected, (have completed thy course by death,) and be honoured with prizes and crowns?"

That signified martyrdom, we learn most expressly from Clemens Alexandra., Stomata, and lib. iii. Page 480, where he has these remarkable words: - "We call martyrdom or perfection, not because man receives it as the end, completion of life; but because it is the consummation of the work of charity."

Basil the Great, Hom. In Psalms 116:13: "I will receive the cup of salvation; that is, thirsting and earnestly desiring to come, by martyrdom, to the consummation."

So OEcumenius, on Acts 28: "All the years of Paul, from his calling to his martyrdom, were thirty and five."

And in Balsamon, Can. I. Ancyran., page 764: is, "To be crowned with the crown of martyrdom."

Eusebius, Hist. Eccles, lib. Vii. Cap. 13, uses the word to express to suffer martyrdom. I have been the more particular here, because some critics have denied that the word has any such signification. See Suicer, Rosenmuller, Macknight,

St. Paul, therefore, is not speaking here of any deficiency in his own grace, or spiritual state; he does not mean by not being yet perfect, that he had a body of sin and death cleaving to him, and was still polluted with indwelling sin, as some have most falsely and dangerously imagined; he speaks of his not having terminated his course by martyrdom, which he knew would sooner or later be the case. This he considered as the perfection, of his whole career, and was led to view every thing as imperfect or unfinished till this had taken place.

But I follow after

but I pursue; several are gone before me in this glorious way, and have obtained the crown of martyrdom; I am hurrying after them.

That I may apprehend

That I may receive those blessings to which I am called by Christ Jesus. There is still an allusion here to the stadium, and exercises there: the apostle considers Christ as the brabeus, or judge in the games, who proclaimed the victor, and distributed the prizes; and he represents himself as being introduced by this very brabeus, or judge, into the contest; and this brabeus brought him in with the design to crown him, if he contended faithfully. To complete this faithful contention is what he has in view; that he may apprehend, or lay hold on that for which he had been apprehended, or taken by the hand by Christ who had converted, strengthened, and endowed him with apostolic powers, that he might fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life.

Verse 13. I count not myself to have apprehended

whatever gifts, graces, or honours I may have received from Jesus Christ, I consider every thing as incomplete till I have finished my course, got this crown, and have my body raised and fashioned after his glorious body.

This one thing I do

This is the concern, as it is the sole business, of my life.

Forgetting those things which are behind

My conduct is not regulated nor influenced by that of others; I consider my calling, my Master, my work, and my end. If others think they have time to loiter or trifle, I have none: time is flying; eternity is at hand; and my all is at stake.

Reaching forth

The Greek word points out the strong exertions made in the race; every muscle and nerve is exerted, and he puts forth every particle of his strength in running. He was running for life, and running for his life.

Verse 14. I press toward the mark

I pursue along the line; this is a reference to the white line that marked the ground in the stadium, from the starting place to the goal, on which the runners were obliged to keep their eye fixed; for they who transgressed or went beyond this line did not run lawfully, and were not crowned, even though they got first to the goal. See the concluding observations on "1Co 9:27".

What is called mark or scope, here, is called the line, i.e. the marked line, Philippians 3:16. When it was said to Diogenes, the cynic, "Thou art now an old man, rest from thy labours;" to this he answered: "If I have run long in the race, will it become me to slacken my pace when come near the end; should I not rather stretch forward?" Diog. Laert., lib. Vi. Cap. 2. sec. 6.

For the prize of the high calling of God

The reward which God from above calls me, by Christ Jesus, to receive. The apostle still keeps in view his crown of martyrdom and his glorious resurrection.

Verse 15. As many as be perfect

As many as are thoroughly instructed in Divine things, who have cast off all dependence on the law and on every other system for salvation, and who discern God calling them from above by Christ Jesus; be thus minded; be intensely in earnest for eternal life, nor ever halt till the race is finished.

The word perfect, is taken here in the same sense in which it is taken 1 Corinthians 14:20:- Be not CHILDREN in understanding-but in understanding be ye MEN, be ye perfect-thoroughly instructed, deeply experienced. 1 Corinthians 2:6:- We speak wisdom among the perfect, among those who are fully instructed, adults in Christian knowledge. Ephesians 4:13:- Till we all come-unto a perfect man, 957; to the state of adults in Christianity. Hebrews 5:14:- But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, the perfect-those who are thoroughly instructed and experienced in Divine things. Let us therefore, says the apostle, as many as be perfect-as have entered fully into the spirit and design of the Gospel, be thus minded, viz. Forget the things which are behind, and stretch forward along the mark for the prize.

If in any thing ye be otherwise minded

If ye have not yet entered into the full spirit and design of this Gospel, if any of you have yet remaining any doubts relative to Jewish ordinances, or their expediency in Christianity, God shall reveal even this unto you; for while you are sincere and upright, God will take care that ye shall have full instruction in these Divine things.

Verse 16. Whereto we have already attained

Let us not lose that part of the race which we have already run, let us walk by the same rule-let us keep the white line continually in view, let us mind the same thing, always considering the glorious prize which is held out by God through Christ Jesus to animate and encourage us."

I have also dealt with the other texts elsewhere and they can easily be found in holiness teachings. However, Johann ignored my post and did not answer the points I made, but continues with his misinterpretation, I therefore decided that he is not debating according to accepted etiquette, and bull-dosing instead, his views, of course backed by scripture, which can be utilized by anyone with any other gospel, which makes me not wish to communicate with him any longer on this subject.

I'm not trying to bulldoze my views or misinterpret anything—the one misinterpreting clear Scripture is you, relying too heavily on the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I could easily rebut your references, but I’ve lost interest in the discussion between you and @marks.

 

[Hepzibah]

I'm not trying to bulldoze my views or misinterpret anything—the one misinterpreting clear Scripture is you, relying too heavily on the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I could easily rebut your references, but I’ve lost interest in the discussion between you and @marks.

Thank you for butting out Johann. Most people do that much earlier when two members are deep in a discussion, but especially I would have thought when they are discussing personal issues. It is considered to be good etiquette.

You have countlessly posted your views on the subject, with repeated postings on the same objections of which you have not engaged me with, and are clearly not interested in having an open discussion so I don't see why you continue. Not by any valid reasons.

 

[Johann]

Thank you for butting out Johann. Most people do that much earlier when two members are deep in a discussion, but especially I would have thought when they are discussing personal issues. It is considered to be good etiquette.

You have countlessly posted your views on the subject, with repeated postings on the same objections of which you have not engaged me with, and are clearly not interested in having an open discussion so I don't see why you continue. Not by any valid reasons.

Let’s keep this friendly—otherwise, I’ll have to put you on ignore. Like I mentioned, I can easily rebut your points using Scripture alone, without needing the Early Church Fathers. I’m choosing not to engage further, so don’t let this get under your skin or lose your focus. Thanks,
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

Let’s keep this friendly—otherwise, I’ll have to put you on ignore. Like I mentioned, I can easily rebut your points using Scripture alone, without needing the Early Church Fathers. I’m choosing not to engage further, so don’t let this get under your skin or lose your focus. Thanks,
J.

Please do put me on ignore. You have already rebutted my points countless times, by twisting scripture so why continue? Thanks.

 

[Johann]

Please do put me on ignore. You have already rebutted my points countless times, by twisting scripture so why continue? Thanks.

That's right—I rely on the Scriptures, not the Early Church Fathers with their disagreements, so you're unable to effectively rebut Scripture or its context.

 

[Hepzibah]

Reader, just to make it clear what the basic disagreement is about.

I am speaking from the doctrine of entire sanctification that was widespread during the holiness movement, although there was much error and hypocrisy going on at the time, which you would expect if you agreed that Satan hates this doctrine above all, as entirely sanctified believers are no longer fooled by him and his servants.

What it basically says is, that those who hate their sins and long for a pure heart, just like King David when he was caught out in his sin, open up the way for God's power alone, who enables them to finally walk as Christ walked on this earth, and this He will grant.

How can this doctrine be evil? Rather it is the doctrine that is evil which says it is not possible despite Paul saying he could do all things through Christ who strengthened him, and who will not go on to the perfection laid out in scripture and in the teachings of some of the EFC..
The pillars of the church could not hold a role of leadership unless they were ES'ed and they certainly stuck to scripture as can be seen if one reads their works..

The devil and his minions hate this doctrine and will try to shut down its preachers.

 

[Johann]

Reader, just to make it clear what the basic disagreement is about.

I am speaking from the doctrine of entire sanctification that was widespread during the holiness movement, although there was much error and hypocrisy going on at the time, which you would expect if you agreed that Satan hates this doctrine above all, as entirely sanctified believers are no longer fooled by him and his servants.

What it basically says is, that those who hate their sins and long for a pure heart, just like King David when he was caught out in his sin, open up the way for God's power alone, who enables them to finally walk as Christ walked on this earth, and this He will grant.

How can this doctrine be evil? Rather it is the doctrine that is evil which says it is not possible despite Paul saying he could do all things through Christ who strengthened him, and who will not go on to the perfection laid out in scripture and in the teachings of some of the EFC..
The pillars of the church could not hold a role of leadership unless they were ES'ed and they certainly stuck to scripture as can be seen if one reads their works..

The devil and his minions hate this doctrine and will try to shut down its preachers.

Just to make sure, which of the EFC do you read-there's something I want to research.

 

[Hepzibah]

Just to make sure, which of the EFC do you read-there's something I want to research.

Thank you Johann, I think you have taken up enough time on my thread. I am sure we have already been through that.

 

[Johann]

Thank you Johann, I think you have taken up enough time on my thread. I am sure we have already been through that.

 

[marks]

Justification - made right, accounted righteous, pardoned and accepted. Justification wasn't an issue being debated in Patristic times (Schreiner), they were far too busy fighting Arians and suchlike. However, we can find the description in the Old Testament:

I am reposting this from earlier, to explain that Paul was not speaking of perfection in the sense it is mistakenly claimed by in those who oppose the walk of holiness:

I've read both of these posts several times, very carefully.

I've seen several instances where we would define the same thing in different ways, such as, what is the "day of the LORD". You've said this is when God comes to us with the baptism in the Spirit, yet Scripture defines the day of the LORD as a day of wrath and judgment, something not to be hoping for. So this gives me pause.

I'm very very much about the straightforward readings of the Bible. Not foolishly as though God has feathers, but that it's serious in the very things it say. If the Bible says the Day of the LORD is a day of darkness and wrath, not to be sought for, then that's the way it is. I simply believe it.

So yes, you and I must have very different ideas about the end of the age. I believe we have different ideas concerning Israel and the Church, and whether what is said to the one applies to the other.

Dispensationalism is pointedly in Scripture. The covenant of obedience, made as Sinai, was made with Israel, and not the gentiles. And the covenant of obedience (Law of Moses) is plainly not applied to the New Testament Church. These are the sayings of Scripture.

Again, commentators, from whatever era, MUST be compared to Scripture. Scripture is the rule, and that is in what it says, not in what it doesn't say. But at the end of the day, for me, it comes down to a matter of faith.

I'm finding this concept of Theosis ( that when we've reached the right state, God will grant rebirth and ES, and at that time we are saved, not before) I'm finding this concept to be a faith killer, because it teaches we lack what we need, and will continue to lack what we need until we receive that second benefit.

Yet the Bible is replete with admonitions to those who have already died and been raised with Christ to put to death the things of flesh. As if we can. As if we will need to! Why do we need to kill our fleshy parts on the earth if we've died and risen with Christ? But this is plainly said.

It tells us to add to our faith virtue, all the way up to adding charity. As if we can. It tells us that God has already given us all we need for life and godliness, in the form of promises. God's self commitment to our success in life and godliness.

This discussion is being very good for me, because it's challenged me. Explaining, examining, defending my view, exploring and considering your view, this has reinforced in my mind, in my heart, that we really do have the availability to walk in the Spirit by faith. I've long realized that healing in my mind and body are good, I want that, but I don't want to wait for that.

If I'm not walking in the Spirit, I'm in a constant struggle against my very corrupted flesh, and I'm so tired of fighting. If we walk in the Spirit, we won't do the works of flesh. And that's what I want, an exit. I know I still need physical healing so I can feel better physically consistently, meanwhile it's a part of my trials that I'm being exercised with.

This whole collage of impending catastrophe, it's the weights on my barbell. God put on some heavier one's to work me more.

I believe walking in the Spirit is the natural state for the child of God, and that we simply do that when we aren't giving ourselves over to the control of flesh, as we follow it's lead, in fear and doubt, or in avarice and envy, in pride, in whatever it is.

I think we give ourselves over to fleshy control when we doubt our ability, or God's ability in us, to keep us on that Higher Ground. I think the Bible strongly teaches that salvation isn't difficult, God makes it easy, All who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved. The word is close, it's in your mouth, the word of believing which we preach.

I believe we are able to walk in the Spirit by faith, and not having to await an additional work from God.

And I know we disagree over this, but I believe we who have trusted Christ are in fact reborn, do in fact have His Spirit, and can in fact walk accordingly. That we are bringing into our outer man the new live that lives in our inner man.

So I've chosen to do that, looking for God to empower my choice, to make it actually happen, and He has. Fear is gone. Momentary blips, just, refocus back on God. No mind race, no compulsions, no obsessions, well, momentary blips, literally momentary. And remind myself, God is with me, and He loves me, and I am fully reconciled, forever, and now He is here with me to form me the way He wants me to be. Peaceful and patient, trusting Him in the face of every difficulty.

It's been in the forefront of my mind how I'd not really died to myself, I was too hung up on being assured of a continuing income, of success in my property repair efforts, all these things. I'm learning to let go of all these things.

It's like I'm learning to give everything over to the LORD now that I have virtually nothing left! But I know that don't worry God! He is able.

It's the knowledge that I'm forever and reconciled, forever reborn, free from my flesh, free to commune with God, that empowers my faith. My faith is exactly about this very thing. That Jesus has done all that was needed, and given this to me, and now works tirelessly with me to bring me into this life.

If I believed that I truly can not walk in the Spirit until something more happened, that would be truly depressing indeed!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sorry to hear about your predicament. Don't you have property auctions in the US?

We have "home flipper" buyers, they pay a low cash offer, usually 2/3's market rate. We felt OK with our realtor, and the notion that we could price it as a fixer upper, and we signed a 6 month contract. We could have gotten a shorter contract, but we like this lady, and prayed much, and signed. Since we are on a contract, the cash buyer companies won't touch us.

So we're trying to make it as presentable and intact as we can, and wait for what God will do.

You know, before these dark times of fake Christianity, men who had inherited a large sum would often give it all away so that they would continue to depend on God.

Another very challenging thought!

Please don't grind yourself down, stress is bad for you.

Part of my choice to just trust God and repudiate the fear and all fleshy things was that it was all of it just too much, I'd be paralyzed with fear, and the worse things looked, the worse I got. Yes, stress is a killer, and I had way way too much! So I just had to say to myself, well, do you believe this or not??? I do believe, and all the more so today.

I realize I may be having a "good week", except I'm getting past my usual timeline. Even so, who knows what will happen with me? Life is only lived one moment at a time. But in the moment I start to feel myself slip away, the answer is in those words, Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I'm finding this concept of Theosis ( that when we've reached the right state, God will grant rebirth and ES, and at that time we are saved, not before) I'm finding this concept to be a faith killer, because it teaches we lack what we need, and will continue to lack what we need until we receive that second benefit...

...I believe we are able to walk in the Spirit by faith, and not having to await an additional work from God.

If I believed that I truly can not walk in the Spirit until something more happened, that would be truly depressing indeed!

Much love!

Precious friend, Neither do I 'see' this so-called "Second blessing" In Scripture, Because:
At the moment of trusting Christ, and the new birth, we Already have these:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us​

with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3 AV)​

​

Amen.

 

[marks]

St. Paul, therefore, is not speaking here of any deficiency in his own grace, or spiritual state; he does not mean by not being yet perfect, that he had a body of sin and death cleaving to him, and was still polluted with indwelling sin, as some have most falsely and dangerously imagined; he speaks of his not having terminated his course by martyrdom, which he knew would sooner or later be the case. This he considered as the perfection, of his whole career, and was led to view every thing as imperfect or unfinished till this had taken place.

I believe Paul still lived in his flesh body, in which sin lives, the corruption of the flesh, but that Paul had overcome it, living in a state of apparent sinlessness.

He'd learned . . . sin lives in my flesh, but I'm dead to my flesh, so that doesn't matter, it has no hold on me. Walking in the Spirit gives us the experiential reality of the spiritual reality accomplished in Christ's death.

Again, a new creation in the inner man, being revealed in the outer man.

2 Corinthians 4:10-11 KJV
10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

We bear in our body His death, in this way His life is revealed in us. Made manifest.

The reality of ES? Yes, I think so, but with that caveat that it's not for us to dwell on, only that we follow the Spirit in whatever He wants of us, to stop this, to start that, whatever it is, but not dwell on sinlessness or not, as we don't know ourselves well enough, and can have a tendency to lie to ourselves.

I think this is simply one more thing to leave in the Lord's hands, whether or not I'm doing all I should. If there is something, He is totally able to express that to me. Though I compare myself to the fruit of the Spirit, if this isn't there, I'm not there, and I need to return.

There is so much I think we agree about concerning what this life experience is. Only we differ on these couple of things. But to be clear, I remain convince we both have our eye set on the same prize. I've come to think, the best way to know Jesus is to obey Him. Our greatest impediment to obeying Him is the tumult we experience from our very corrupted flesh.

I consider the physical dampage of cPTSD part of the corruption of the flesh. Being this way is like being a lab rat to learn about flesh and sanctification. It's so bad my only acceptable answer is to transcend it.

And so I'm really hoping you will consider that if you can accept that He's accepted you even as you are, completely, fully, because it's not about you, it's about Jesus, that He became sin so that we can become God's righteousness, that you will consider whether you truly can walk in His resurrection power, even now, even by believing.

If Theosis truly is a second blessing by which we are united to God in such a way as to be completely healed in our psuche, and that this is the proper goal of our Christian life, I don't understand how we would ever fall from it, or why God would remove it.

I more think it's something God uses sometimes, in my case, to encourage me, to show me what it's like, to give me a goal. In the case of the elders and overseers, to provide spiritual leadership for the church. I think this is why following the criteria for choosing elders and overseers is so important. We can't see the heart, but if all those conditions are true, it gives a good indication.

I think sanctification is the proper pursuit for the Christian. The more we come to see God's beauty in holiness the more we desire it in our heart. God came to me, decades after receiving Jesus. I still believe I was born again in 1981, because I was different. And God has moved in my life at various times over the years. But never like in 2017 when He started the heavy lifting.

Ephesians 4:11-15 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

I think this gives the general pattern, that we minister to each other as we mature.

Much love!

Edit to add . . . transparency . . . I never want to seem like what I'm not . . . here it is the end of the afternoon and I have the physical feeling of anxiety, though I quite my mind to not worry, to trust in God.

My first panic attack some years ago left me with a "chest stress injury", the feeling of fear as the chest tightens, if it's strong enough it leaves a musculoskeletal injury. Any little apprehension would re-injure, until I could manage about 2 weeks without any feelings of fear or anxiety. It was a very interesting time!

Now sometimes I can have that physical feeling without an emotional source. Only it tends to drag the emotions into is, as if I did have a reason to worry. And I by no means assume that I'm not missing something, that I need to be paying attention to! So things can seem complicated. But for me the final answer is to trust God in this also.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Precious friend, Neither do I 'see' this so-called "Second blessing" In Scripture, Because:
At the moment of trusting Christ, and the new birth, we Already have these:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us​

with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3 AV)​

​

Amen.

God bless you dear @GRACE ambassador and for discernment.
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

Just to make sure, which of the EFC do you read-there's something I want to research.

@Johann I would like to apologize for that post if I was misunderstanding your motive. And also my embarrassment regarding the lack of a properly researched piece on which ECF taught what on Theosis. I have failed to get this together due to personal circumstances but I am working on it!

I am trying hard to concentrate on the scholarly The Doctrine of Deification in the Greek Patristic Tradition, Norman Russell 2004, to help me with this.

So here are a few quotes which I hope are useful:

"Adolf von Harnack identified deification as a leading theme in Irenaeus of Lyons." (Andrew Louth).

"It was Lot-Borodine who first drew the attention of western readers to the doctrines centrality in the Eastern Orthodox tradition entitled, La doctrine de la deification dans I'Englise grecque jusqu'au XI"

"There have been a number of significant monographs specifically on the doctrine of deification in Gregory of Nazianzus (Winslow 1979), Athanasius of Alexandria (Norman 1980) Irenaeus of Lyons (de Andia 1986), Maximus the Confessor (Larchet 1996) and Cyril of Alexandria (Keating 2004)" Norman Russell).

I will be concentrating on these writers as there seems to be the most information available regarding them, not forgetting that a lot of patristic writings remain to be translated.

 

[Hepzibah]

Precious friend, Neither do I 'see' this so-called "Second blessing" In Scripture, Because:
At the moment of trusting Christ, and the new birth, we Already have these:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us​

with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3 AV)​

​

Amen.

I concede that saying 'second blessing' is not useful in these conversations. It has too many connotations to the things that were wrong with the Holiness Movement. Instead, I will rather use the idea that, it is when a man comes to believe in the fullness of what Christ achieved for him on the cross which includes the consenting of the crucifixion of the man's old life, which he has come to despise, with its remaining sins.

 

[Johann]

@Johann I would like to apologize for that post if I was misunderstanding your motive. And also my embarrassment regarding the lack of a properly researched piece on which ECF taught what on Theosis. I have failed to get this together due to personal circumstances but I am working on it!

No need to apologize-all good @Hepzibah

 

[Hepzibah]

I've read both of these posts several times, very carefully.

I've seen several instances where we would define the same thing in different ways, such as, what is the "day of the LORD". You've said this is when God comes to us with the baptism in the Spirit, yet Scripture defines the day of the LORD as a day of wrath and judgment, something not to be hoping for. So this gives me pause.

Indeed it is the day of judgement:

For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isa. 2:1

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa. 13:6

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa. 13:9

And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing. Isa. 10:27

On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the people of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. 2And on that day, declares the LORD of Hosts, I will erase the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered. I will also remove the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land.

3And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, ‘You shall not remain alive, because you have spoken falsely in the name of the LORD.’ When he prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will pierce him through.

4And on that day every prophet who prophesies will be ashamed of his vision, and he will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive. He will say, ‘I am not a prophet; I work the land, for I was purchased as a servant in my youth. 6 If someone asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your chest?’ he will answer, ‘These are the wounds I received in the house of my friends.’ Zech 13:1-6.

This is the terrible day when the Lord comes again, to each person according to His timing, and judges the person, who will either accept that judgement or quench the Holy Spirit in His work of convicting His people of their sin. This action of destruction by fire is required for the work of a man accepting the death of the old nature (crucified with Christ) where he is stripped of all of his old understanding so that he can be baptized into Christ. It is an ending of all things so the start of new things can begin.

For those who will not go through the fire, (held in sword that the cherubim hold to guard the way into paradise) then judgement lays on their heads as they chose to walk in the flesh instead. It is indeed a day of wrath for God's disobedient people.

This is the second coming of Christ, which was expected at any time, when written about in the old and new testaments with warnings. As for the end of time - who knows? We just guess. It is this life where we are to have our aims.

I'm very very much about the straightforward readings of the Bible. Not foolishly as though God has feathers, but that it's serious in the very things it say. If the Bible says the Day of the LORD is a day of darkness and wrath, not to be sought for, then that's the way it is. I simply believe it.

So yes, you and I must have very different ideas about the end of the age. I believe we have different ideas concerning Israel and the Church, and whether what is said to the one applies to the other.

Dispensationalism is pointedly in Scripture. The covenant of obedience, made as Sinai, was made with Israel, and not the gentiles. And the covenant of obedience (Law of Moses) is plainly not applied to the New Testament Church. These are the sayings of Scripture.

We miss so much under this interpretation which consists of a small part of church history.

Again, commentators, from whatever era, MUST be compared to Scripture. Scripture is the rule, and that is in what it says, not in what it doesn't say. But at the end of the day, for me, it comes down to a matter of faith.

I'm finding this concept of Theosis ( that when we've reached the right state, God will grant rebirth and ES, and at that time we are saved, not before) I'm finding this concept to be a faith killer, because it teaches we lack what we need, and will continue to lack what we need until we receive that second benefit.

I do not see Christians I have known over 50 years have what they need. And it just gets worse as they age, is what I see. There is something missing. I can see how it can cause problems when a man who accepts he has been wrong on this, must ask himself 'what else have I been wrong over and can I ever trust my thoughts again'. This is part of the stripping away of everything to accept the new life in Christ.

Yet the Bible is replete with admonitions to those who have already died and been raised with Christ to put to death the things of flesh. As if we can. As if we will need to! Why do we need to kill our fleshy parts on the earth if we've died and risen with Christ? But this is plainly said.

The things of the flesh include mans best thoughts and intentions. There is a discipline in walking in the Spirit that includes these things. I admit that I don't know it all, things are still opening up to me in the understanding of scripture since I began to see them through spiritual eyes whereas before it was in my own understanding.

It tells us to add to our faith virtue, all the way up to adding charity. As if we can. It tells us that God has already given us all we need for life and godliness, in the form of promises. God's self commitment to our success in life and godliness.

Indeed everything has been provided but we have to go through various deaths to get there I believe.

This discussion is being very good for me, because it's challenged me. Explaining, examining, defending my view, exploring and considering your view, this has reinforced in my mind, in my heart, that we really do have the availability to walk in the Spirit by faith. I've long realized that healing in my mind and body are good, I want that, but I don't want to wait for that.

It is all by faith.

If I'm not walking in the Spirit, I'm in a constant struggle against my very corrupted flesh, and I'm so tired of fighting. If we walk in the Spirit, we won't do the works of flesh. And that's what I want, an exit. I know I still need physical healing so I can feel better physically consistently, meanwhile it's a part of my trials that I'm being exercised with.

You are tired because it is from your own strength you are doing it. In God's strength we can do all things as Paul did. The fight is over and peace reigns.

This whole collage of impending catastrophe, it's the weights on my barbell. God put on some heavier one's to work me more.

I believe walking in the Spirit is the natural state for the child of God, and that we simply do that when we aren't giving ourselves over to the control of flesh, as we follow it's lead, in fear and doubt, or in avarice and envy, in pride, in whatever it is.

I think we give ourselves over to fleshy control when we doubt our ability, or God's ability in us, to keep us on that Higher Ground. I think the Bible strongly teaches that salvation isn't difficult, God makes it easy, All who call upon the Name of the LORD shall be saved. The word is close, it's in your mouth, the word of believing which we preach.

I believe we are able to walk in the Spirit by faith, and not having to await an additional work from God.

As I have said, saying it is a second blessing is misleading. It is about appropriating what has already been gained for us on the cross but it means a death to our old ways.

And I know we disagree over this, but I believe we who have trusted Christ are in fact reborn, do in fact have His Spirit, and can in fact walk accordingly. That we are bringing into our outer man the new live that lives in our inner man.

 

[Johann]

As I have said, saying it is a second blessing is misleading. It is about appropriating what has already been gained for us on the cross but it means a death to our old ways.

Absolutely, it’s possible for a believer to still walk in the flesh without fully realizing that they’re supposed to be dead to their old self.

Paul talks about this in Romans 6:3-4, where he says, “Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we may live a new way of life.”

It’s like Paul is reminding believers that they’ve already died to their old ways through Christ, but they need to continually live out that reality.

Colossians 3:3-5 also touches on this when it says, “For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God... Therefore, put to death what is earthly in you.”

So, it’s about realizing and appropriating what Christ has already done, rather than seeking something additional. Wouldn’t you agree, sister?