The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

Would you expand on this? I understand your view that it is an event, in what way do you see sanctification as a process?

Much love!

I see the process starting when we first come to Christ, having heard His call and become disciples. At this stage, we need to go through trials so that we can understand what flesh is and what He requires of us to walk in the Spirit. We can see examples of this both in the OT and the New in the stories about His people. We are not ready in these early times for full blown service and suffering.

We see the process ending as they entered into His rest/Spirit baptism. Before that was struggle and strife and leading up to the despair of Romans 7. It took me 17 years. Some do not get there because they sear their consciences. In fact most. They listen to the lie of Satan.

I see sanctification, but not entire, or in early terms Illumination which we have spoken about before, in which the scriptures are opened up for us, as we enter a new level whereby sin no longer has victory over us but we have not been entirely delivered from it. In scriptural terms it is when Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples in preparation for Pentecost.

But really, naming the technical details, if we can call them such, are not important.

What is important, is that we do not accept the lie that we can have Christ dwelling within and still be a slave to sin, ie that we still have habits or inabilities over certain areas which are not submitted. All must go onto the altar, in one fell swoop and God gives the power for that. It is not one sin going here and there. To put on the new nature is to be what God intended for man as was Adam. If we do not crave for this which brings us close to Christ, then we just will not get there.

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't see ES in this passage, as Paul says both that he has put away childish things, but that he knows only in part still.

1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Which indicates to me that Paul is looking for "that which is perfect" which is something other than him putting away childish things.

Much love!

Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 11:12

He is comparing the past to now, from child to man; knowing in part - which must be past to keep to the analogy, today - knowing fully. I don't know why the wording has shifted.

Have not noticed this before. Perhaps corruption of text.

 

[marks]

Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 11:12

He is comparing the past to now, from child to man; knowing in part - which must be past to keep to the analogy, today - knowing fully. I don't know why the wording has shifted.

Have not noticed this before. Perhaps corruption of text.

I'm seeing something different here, that Paul is saying that "now" he knows in part, not fully, and "then" he will fully know - future.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 KJV
8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Love never fails, the rest they shall cease, because because we don't have the full knowledge, we don't have the full revelation, but when "the perfect" (teleios = complete, mature, consumate, finished) has come, these imcomplete things will be done away.

When I was a child - this is like when we prophecy in part, and know in part - I thought like a child. Compare this to having incomplete knowledge, and incomplete revelation.

Just like when I became I man that I put away childish things, so also when the perfect comes the incomplete will be done away.

Now we see though a glass darkly . . . incomplete . . . but then face to face . . . complete. And so now remains faith, and hope, and love, but because our faith and hope are incomplete, they will be done away, but love, love will remain, so it is the greatest.

Knowing in part is like being a child, and just like he put away childish things, so that will be put away, when the perfect has come.

To me this makes perfect sense.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I see the process starting when we first come to Christ, having heard His call and become disciples. At this stage, we need to go through trials so that we can understand what flesh is and what He requires of us to walk in the Spirit. We can see examples of this both in the OT and the New in the stories about His people. We are not ready in these early times for full blown service and suffering.

Do we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at this time?

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Do we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at this time?

Much love!

I don't see that in scripture till Pentecost, the end point of the sanctification process. The vessel is cleansed at that point ie tongues of fire.

 

[Hepzibah]

I'm seeing something different here, that Paul is saying that "now" he knows in part, not fully, and "then" he will fully know - future.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 KJV
8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Love never fails, the rest they shall cease, because because we don't have the full knowledge, we don't have the full revelation, but when "the perfect" (teleios = complete, mature, consumate, finished) has come, these imcomplete things will be done away.

When I was a child - this is like when we prophecy in part, and know in part - I thought like a child. Compare this to having incomplete knowledge, and incomplete revelation.

Just like when I became I man that I put away childish things, so also when the perfect comes the incomplete will be done away.

Now we see though a glass darkly . . . incomplete . . . but then face to face . . . complete. And so now remains faith, and hope, and love, but because our faith and hope are incomplete, they will be done away, but love, love will remain, so it is the greatest.

Knowing in part is like being a child, and just like he put away childish things, so that will be put away, when the perfect has come.

To me this makes perfect sense.

Much love!

But that is saying Paul sees himself as a child.

 

[marks]

But that is saying Paul sees himself as a child.

Not really, he's comparing our current state of incomplete revelation and knowledge to when he was a child, acting and thinking like a child. Immature. And he's comparing putting away childish things in becoming a man to when the incomplete things will be done away when the full completion comes, when the perfect has come.

Remember . . . "perfect" here, from teleios, doesn't refer specifically to moral excellence. Were the context to specify that, it can mean that, but this context is of childhood and maturity.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Rev., have attained, am made perfect. There is a change of tenses which may be intentional; the aorist attained pointing to the definite period of his conversion, the perfect, am made perfect, referring to his present state. Neither when I became Christ's did I attain, nor, up to this time, have I been perfected. With attained supply the prize from Php_3:14. Rev., am made perfect, is preferable, as preserving the passive form of the verb.

Or am already made perfect (ē ēdē teteleiōmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleioō, old verb from teleios and that from telos (end). Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non- development. Certainly he knew nothing of so-called sudden absolute perfection by any single experience. Paul has made great progress in Christlikeness, but the goal is still before him, not behind him.

It seems so to me that this is a correct interpretation. Although I perceive you are stronger in this area than am I, to say the least!

Much love!

 

[marks]

"A false teacher teaching error can spread corruption throughout the entire church unless it is removed."

How sad that Augustine was not removed.

I quite agree!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

It seems so to me that this is a correct interpretation. Although I perceive you are stronger in this area than am I, to say the least!

Much love!

RWP
VWS

My go to, as they are yours.

 

[marks]

RWP
VWS

My go to, as they are yours.

It's so good to have a brother! I love you, Johann!

 

[Johann]

It's so good to have a brother! I love you, Johann!

Same here marks.

 

[marks]

I'm hoping to confirm some understandings of what you are saying here . . .

I see the process starting when we first come to Christ, having heard His call and become disciples.

This would be a recognition of our desire to come to God, and choosing to learn about Jesus, and from Jesus, about Himself, though we are not spiritually changed at this time.

At this stage, we need to go through trials so that we can understand what flesh is and what He requires of us to walk in the Spirit. We can see examples of this both in the OT and the New in the stories about His people. We are not ready in these early times for full blown service and suffering.

We begin to be tested, though strickly only in our flesh, as we are not spiritually changed yet. Through this process, we begin to learn what it means to follow Jesus and walk in the Spirit, although we are not yet in the Spirit, not being spiritually changed. So our only option is to learn about walking in the Spirit, but not being changed spiritually, we cannot do this.

We see the process ending as they entered into His rest/Spirit baptism. Before that was struggle and strife and leading up to the despair of Romans 7. It took me 17 years. Some do not get there because they sear their consciences. In fact most. They listen to the lie of Satan.

This process of discipleship brings us to the point of despair finding we cannot do what we need to do, and either throw ourselves down at God's feet for His mercy, in the hope of Theosis - should He find us ready - or else convince ourselves that "some sin is OK", thus searing our conscience.

But IF God grants us Theosis (which may or may not happen, it's up to Him), this is when we become born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, and are the children of God.

Am I on track so far?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I see sanctification, but not entire, or in early terms Illumination which we have spoken about before, in which the scriptures are opened up for us, as we enter a new level whereby sin no longer has victory over us but we have not been entirely delivered from it.

This is before rebirth, correct?

What does it mean, that sin no longer has victory over us, but we have not been entirely delivered from it? That seems like a contradiction to me.

In scriptural terms it is when Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit on the disciples in preparation for Pentecost.

How would we know we are to give this passage a general application considering it is a narrative that occurred with those men at that time? Does this also mean that we are given the same charge as were they? That Jesus is sending us as His Apostles with the same authority Jesus had, to forgive or not forgive sins?

I see these events as one time events in the history of God's relation with man, including Pentecost. What tells us that this foretells our process in becoming saved?

But really, naming the technical details, if we can call them such, are not important.

For me, the details are very significant. Everything the Bible teaches I find very significant.

What is important, is that we do not accept the lie that we can have Christ dwelling within and still be a slave to sin, ie that we still have habits or inabilities over certain areas which are not submitted. All must go onto the altar, in one fell swoop and God gives the power for that. It is not one sin going here and there. To put on the new nature is to be what God intended for man as was Adam. If we do not crave for this which brings us close to Christ, then we just will not get there.

If this is true, then virtually no one is saved, and I'm not saved, I'm not reborn, I'm not there. But I know so well that's not true. I know someone who has invisible relationship with me, in my heart, in my mind. This is someone who is clearly not me, who clearly has great power, and who clearly loves me. There is so much I could say that tells me I've been reborn, and that goes right along with what the Bible tells me to expect.

How does a natural man, who has not the Spirit of Christ within him, understand the things of God?

1 Corinthians 2:9-14 KJV
9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. There is the need to know how not to slip back into seeing things from human eyes rather than spiritual, and all of the guiles of the enemy and keep them in mind which is the hardest. But that longing for more closeness with God has been satisfied. He has filled the hole as it were.

I'm having a difficulty understanding how this view fits with this passage:

Galatians 5:25 KJV
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Could you explain to me what "living in the Spirit" means? And why are those who live in the Spirit admonished to also walk in the Spirit?

My guess is that you would say to "live in the Spirit" is to have Theosis, is that correct? And if that is so, wouldn't that mean these are already walking in the Spirit?

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is not a stage when man can never again sin. No we can always choose to sin, but if we do choose to sin when we are in a perfect state, then we will FALL from that state and not be in perfection any more.

This does not seem realistic to me.

How would you choose to sin when it's not in your heart to sin, so you automatically do righteousness?

When I experienced that first temptation in the flesh, my Theosis (if that's what we call it), was over. It had ended. I know this, because while I was in it, there was no such thing. The fact that it re-entered means the closed gate had already swung open. Now, I'm not talking about how someone may or may not describe or understand Theosis, I'm just saying what my experience was.

But that part was clear. I know exactly the moment it began, I know exactly the moment it ended. And I could feel the difference inside me.

Desire for sin is itself sin. So if we are living in entire sanctification, where then is the desire for sin? Where is the choosing to sin? It seems to me "choosing to sin while in a perfect state" is a contradiction.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I believe that it is possible to be restored but according to Hebrews, it is not easy because we have put Christ to shame again.

If this is the correct application of that passage in Hebrews, then is it not in fact possible. I don't think that's the correct application, but if it is, that's what it says, that it's not possible.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But as Jude says when we are in the state then He keeps us from falling.

Jude 1:1 KJV
1) Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Is your thinking that Jude's letter only applies to those in Theosis? This would be a distinct difference between our views, as this address would limit the letter to those who are perfect, while my view considers that we've been sanctified in Christ when we believed, being justified, and set apart for Him, and therefore this is likewise addressed to us.

Much love!

 

[PGS11]

Sounds like someone taking credit for their own salvation - you were saved by grace not by your own doing Jesus saved you by dying for your sins or do you claim he no longer has to die for you now your sinless and in this perfect state.What a bunch of vanity no humility at all.

 

[amigo de christo]

RWP
VWS

My go to, as they are yours.

Only those who have breathed their last and died faithiful in Christ have attained
that which long ago paul wrote of concerning what he looked foward to attain .
As paul long ago attained at his moment of death .
WE ourselves have not yet attained this , for we still have our walk before us and our goal
what do we aim for , what do we mark , JESUS THE CHRIST .
Does that make sense my friend .
Its true we are apprehended of Christ but our walk is not yet done . let every man be faithful unto death
But this generation is in for a suprise my friend .
Its something paul once looked forward to in his day and wrote about it .
THE KING IS COMING my friend , and there is a generation that shall not sleep but shall in an instant be changed .
THAT IS THIS GENERATION . as to the day and hour , YEAH i am no false prophet or man so
I aint even gonna try and say that day and hour . BUT the signs , oh the signs
are showing us its close . And i , for one , LOOK FORWARD TO BEING FOREVER WITH THE KING
who saved us .
Many have bled through all ages . So marvel not in this last hour upon earth
IF MANY more do bleed for JESUS .
And when i say bleed i mean they will be killed , persecuted , even called out as haters
of humanity , even called haters of God and love . For satan has decieved the many
and they now merge as one and will hold hands with rainbows and other religoins and chant GOD is love
come and merge with us . THIS LAMB will do no such thing or heed no such call ,
FOR their love is not of GOD , it is of the world and darkness and has honored false paths and sins . SOMETHING GOD WOULD NEVER DO .
The SPIRIT of phrophecy dont point to a broad path false road that accepts unbelif and sins
THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY TESTIEFS OF JESUS THE CHRIST . not of lies , BUT OF HE , HIS WORDS, HIS TEACHINGS .
Every WORD of GOD is to be loved and embraced , heeded and adorn with joy .
FOR EVERY WORD OF GOD is for our good and works good to the soul of the hearer and the doer .
But todays love , DONT SEEM TO LOVE TRUTH , and that is a real bad sign right there .
CHARITY REJOICES IN TRUTH . not in some broad path sin accepting lie .