The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

Amen...I agree with this wisdom brother.....God could just take all our problems away in an instant and He gives us tastes of this, but it is like the Israelites when God said they would conquer the land little by little....lest it be overrun by wild beasts of fallen human nature, pride, self righteousness etc.....it could spoil us. The battle is part of the cross we carry to crucify and put down that old inward nature as well as it is necessary to battle in order to strengthen us.....like the proverbial butterfly has to struggle out of its cocoon because without the struggle squeezing the body fluids into its wings it would emerge unable to fly. The Lord is so wise....He knows what we are fighting and what we need much better than we know.

There is much testing of course, during the period where we are led to the fullness of ES, and the trials help strengthen us as you say. Once we are in the fullness however, everything changes and we get the full on battle with Satan whereas before we had enough battling within ourselves. It takes a great deal of determination to lay ourselves down on the altar.

 

[Hepzibah]

Such a good point brother, if even the early church leaders couldn't all agree on this. Just like our sister Hepzibah and Episkopos have testified of a walk in the Spirit but they each have areas where they understand this differently. It signals to me that we haven't gotten to the bottom of this yet. And the fact we only know in part as well.

They were all in agreement about Theosis and how it is attained in the first few hundred years, and then belief in gradual sanctification grew. It is one or the other and there have always been opposers as Satan has always been active to destroy the number one doctrine he hates, as sinning Christians are no bother to him..

Epi only knows the watered down western view and shows signs that he has only read about it because of the way he acts towards others with that superior attitude and insulting us. It is not uncommon for people to teach it without experiencing it as John Wesley noted. But even if he has, losing that blessing causes confusion on the finer points to which I admit.

In any case we each are responsible to seek and follow/obey the Lord and His leading for us individually and trust Him to be leading us to where He wants us to be and His word is a light unto our path. If we become aware of areas where we fall short etc, we need to seek Him for whatever it is we are lacking, whatever that means for us and however He wants to answer.

Nice new avatar, by the way, it is lovely. :) I have no idea how to go about getting one.

 

[Hepzibah]

I agree with you in this, we are talking about something very different.

As I've said previously, within the confines that we cannot know for certain whether we are sinless or not, as we don't sufficiently know ourselves, even so, I believe that God grants this to some, though it seems not all.

For me, the question, the benefit towards discussing this, is to explore whether or not in fact we are able to walk in that way without being "tapped" by God for this particular benefit.

That is, can we enter this walk in the faith we already have?

I don't believe this: Ephesians 2:8, Paul says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”

I think the answer is yes, I think this is what the Bible - not those who came later, but the Apostles themselves.

In my own reading of the early church commentators, it seems to me that they did in fact add much in many cases to what the Bible, the Apostles, taught.

I am talking about doctrine here not praxis. Do you have any examples of additional doctrines?

So for me that is truly vital is to study and know the Bible itself, as this is what came to us from God Himself.

This is true, but as I have mentioned, many who enter this blessing or His rest, remark on seals being opened and scripture becoming like a new book compared to previous understanding. I had three days when I was taught directly from God more more than I had previously learned from my own readings and theologians.

In each of these areas I believe God has given us clear instruction in the Bible, without needing to resort to commentators new or old. This is a primary reason that I prefer speaking in Biblical terminology.

Indeed scripture contains everything needed for one to be saved. But then we need to be able to guide others. We are vastly in error if we teach new doctrines which we cannot help influencing us.

Please don't mistake the fruit of my personal Bible study to be some parroting of someone else's teaching. I have no issue with accepting or rejecting teaching based on what the Bible itself teaches. And if my understanding reminds you of something a particular church or teacher or demonimation teaches, that doesn't mean that's where I got it.

Indeed Protestantism with its millions of interpretations. One for each man.

Earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Contend for the faith that has already been delivered, not that will continue to be delivered over the next 300 years by some of the commentators, but not all.

To me this is an admonition to go with what the Apostles wrote, contend for the faith once delivered.


We can leave this alone.

All Scripture is understood according as the Holy Spirit gives understanding. True spiritual understanding will never contradict what was written. As I've experiences the teaching from the Holy Spirit, it means that we read the words, but we don't understand their significance until the Holy Spirit reveals it. Then we realize that in believing exactly what we are reading, we find a great truth. And we can know for certain that our understanding is true because it's exactly what the Bible says.

Agreed but we all are untaught till that which is perfect is come.

What I question is when someone claims to have a "spiritual understanding" of a passage, but it requires that not all the words mean what they mean, or what they say, and are to be taken "figuratively".

In some cases I believe that is valid, but that there will be something in the text to indicate this is so, and that there will be something in the text to indicate what the figure means.

"A great sign in the heavens, a red dragon . . ." We know this is a symbol from these words. "the dragon, that ancient serpent, the devil, Satan . . .", there is no question of what the symbol means.

There may be those who "pride themselves in their knowledge of Scripture". And there are those who find Scripture to be the signposts of the Eternal Way, the good way, and eagerly seek every good thing to be found. And having found good things, to share them with others.

But there will never be a valid interpretation that brings in contradiction.

I find that many errors are made by just looking at texts and not taking the overall teachings like for example, how the story of the children of Israel is a blueprint for our own walk, when some eventually reached the promised land and the battles therein till perfection. Most fell remember.

The same Spirit? To me it's more a matter of spiritual maturity. But I agree, the love we have for each other is the primary external sign that we are walking the way we ought.

I need to remember, though, that you think of us as "growing towards rebirth" while I think of us as "growing from rebirth" (I never want to misrepresent you so correct me anytime I'm wrong about your ideas.)

Thank you, yes there is that difference, but the growing still occurs but on a different level.

I'd simply say that the Holy Spirit MUST reveal the meaning of Scripture or we won't have it right.

Amen! But if that is so for everyone, there would be a consensus which there isn't.

That is horrible! I've been blessed in churches - in particular my recently deceased pastor - that have shown real Christian love, this man was the most loving man I've ever known. But the church we are in now, the love is very real, so much so as to give me a good look at how far I have yet to go!

Church should be a place for healing and love, and I'm so sad that you have not known that!!

I agree that much harm has been done by those who have no business at the pulpit. One church my wife and I attended briefly, the pastor gave essentially the same message every week. It wasn't about sin, or about holiness, or about growing in the Spirit. It was, "things look hard, but God is faithful, and you'll be OK." It's a good message - if appropriate - but it's hardly all there is! There were some aspects to the church that revealed the spiritual immaturity.

Thanks for that. I did receive some loving care but from parachurch organizations, like one healing and deliverance ministry and once when I met 12 American pastors who were on a teaching trip, on a Scottish Island and they really were a blessing to me. Love heals.

To me, How do we walk in holiness? is about the best thing we can be discussing.

Agree.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

@Johann
I know you would like to do it, but I have found it futile arguing scriptures with anyone wearing different lenses. I found this out with JW's. Unless someone is showing some inclining of seeking the truth then I consider it a waste of my precious little time to get into that.

Besides I no longer trust you because you keep repeating scriptures that indicate that sanctification is a process which I have, on numerous occasions agreed with. Both process and event. So you are building a straw man here. At least the others grasp where I am coming from

 

[Johann]

Yes, he's saying, If you are different now, how can you just go on being the same? The point is, we are different. "Reckon yourself dead to sin and alive indeed to God", he tells us this for the very reason that our tendency is to not realize or recognize or trust that it's true that we have in fact been changed, that we have in fact become dead to sin, that we are in fact alive unto God. And on the heels of this comes the admonition to not sin any more.

So the implication is clear to me, that having become truly dead to sin, we can still continue in it. So we're told to get it into our heads that we are dead to sin and alive to God, so that Jesus is not our Christ alone, but our Lord as well. Being alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord, He is everything to us,

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 KJV
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

And this being so, what remains but that we walk in it? In Jesus? O brother how I need to hear this continually!!

Much love!

Same here brother @marks as I need to read and hear and make it applicable in my life.
Johann.

 

[Lizbeth]

Justification
Justification is the act whereby God declares a person righteous.
Justification happens at the moment one trusts Christ as Savior.
Justification is an event.
Justification happens once and only once.
Justification delivers from the guilt and penalty of sin.
Justification cannot be repeated.
Justification is the work and miracle of a moment.
Justification gives you the merit of Christ.
Sanctification
Sanctification is the act whereby God works out Christ’s righteousness in a believer’s life.
Sanctification happens moment-by-moment as the believer surrenders one’s life to the Lord.
Sanctification is a process.
Sanctification is gradual and continuous.
Sanctification delivers from the control and the power of sin.
Sanctification must be repeated as an ongoing process.
Sanctification is the work and miracle of a lifetime.
Sanctification gives you the character of Christ.
Now, Paul had just written in Romans 5:20, “But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.” In light of this, he next asked, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” (6:1). God, in His super-abounding grace through Christ, redeems from sin, justifies, and gives the gift of righteousness to those who believe.

Therefore, Paul asks, “What shall we say then?” about this super-abounding grace. Perhaps believers should not worry about sin in their lives, and we could continue in sin because this would only result in the manifestation of God’s abounding grace over sin and His greater glory. Would not God’s abounding grace shine all the brighter if we kept on sinning? Since we’re righteous forever in God’s sight, can’t we just sin and live however we want? This is the question Romans 6-8 is meant to answer.

Paul’s emotional answer to this kind of thinking is clear: “God forbid,” or “By no means!” “May it never be!” “Perish the thought!” Justified believers in Christ should never continue in sin that grace may abound. Paul’s teaching is how God’s superabounding grace not only justifies us, it sanctifies us, or sets us apart from sin. His grace doesn’t free us to sin, it frees us from sin and gives us power over it.

The basis of Paul’s answer is in the form of a rhetorical question: “How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” By posing the rhetorical question, Paul expected the reader to see the answer in the question. Rhetorical questions are not asked in expectation of answers; rather, they make statements.

Amen. I think of justification as meaning exoneration. And if grace weren't grace we wouldn't have been admonished in scripture to not use it as a license or cloak for sin.

 

[Johann]

@Johann
I know you would like to do it, but I have found it futile arguing scriptures with anyone wearing different lenses. I found this out with JW's. Unless someone is showing some inclining of seeking the truth then I consider it a waste of my precious little time to get into that.

Besides I no longer trust you because you keep repeating scriptures that indicate that sanctification is a process which I have, on numerous occasions agreed with. Both process and event. So you are building a straw man here. At least the others grasp where I am coming from

Quoting Scriptures for the benefit of others and besides, I believe you teach a different gospel though you claim you have been "taught by God" for 3 days--doesn't say you are a heretic yet, and correct you are, we read the Scriptures through different lenses.
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, he's saying, If you are different now, how can you just go on being the same? The point is, we are different. "Reckon yourself dead to sin and alive indeed to God", he tells us this for the very reason that our tendency is to not realize or recognize or trust that it's true that we have in fact been changed, that we have in fact become dead to sin, that we are in fact alive unto God. And on the heels of this comes the admonition to not sin any more.

So the implication is clear to me, that having become truly dead to sin, we can still continue in it. So we're told to get it into our heads that we are dead to sin and alive to God, so that Jesus is not our Christ alone, but our Lord as well. Being alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord, He is everything to us,

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 KJV
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

And this being so, what remains but that we walk in it? In Jesus? O brother how I need to hear this continually!!

Much love!

Amen, I do believe that is part of the battle, to learn to walk in the truth of what we have already become essentially.....the new man. As a man thinks, so is he. We are partly blind to it until then, or at least at times. The veil of flesh and carnal mind gets in the way.

 

[Hepzibah]

Brethren, how sad it is when the church does not have unity on this, the most important doctrine of all and even less today than ever. For if we get this one wrong, there is no hope for us. We are either in or out of Christ, as in the time of Noah, when you were in or out of the ark. You are either saved from sin or still in it, even if it is not 'habitual sin, whatever that means.

Sin separates us from God - still. We can know of Him but fail to know Him and will be cast out at the end. Most of the church will say 'we are covered by the blood' but the OT still stands - the soul that sinneth it shall die. God has the power to restore us to our original condition, but He did even more. He opened up the way for mankind to eat of the tree of life in this life not the next as our fate is sealed at death (as a tree falleth it will lie Ecc 11:3-10.) Death is said to be our enemy not our friend.

As we will expect, the enemy will try all he can to stop this teaching which has been on the go since the beginning. Paul said in 1 Thess 2:10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. They were obviously questioning him in this very teaching. Of the many forums I have posted on these last 25 years, this one is the only one where the subject is not taken down. So we can expect the enemy to be very active here, in the guise of someone who can twist and turn the scriptures to his benefit. Satan is the number one expert in doing this and leaves his calling mark of turning things upside down.

Which side is right? Is it the one that pleads and warns followers of Christ to obey or the one that speaks with a 'double tongue'? The one that says peace peace where there is no peace and tickles ears?

Let us all beware and discern.

 

[Lizbeth]

Scripture says that, when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will cease ie will be in fullness, including knowledge. I take this to mean entire sanctification as it also says:

“When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” 1 Cor 11:12

So it is talking about this life when it says become a man. When we are truly walking in the Spirit we see God as He is, face to face.

I have pondered that scripture quite a bit. Paul also says, "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror...." That seems like a general statement that applies to everyone in the church including himself. I just don't know which way to take it. Was that your experience? Did you feel you that you "fully knew" all truth? Or could it be talking about knowing Christ fully, as in experiencing Him fully...being fully possessed by His Spirit..? Fully know Him as we are fully known by Him?

There are also many scriptures that say there will be a great falling away and deception. Normally when there is tribulation the church has grown but the end times are different I think, when Satan has been given more freedom.

Yes, I think there is a falling away and deception happening now and it is building and getting worse. But the Lord always reserves for Himself a remnant, like Gideon's few good men.

 

[Hepzibah]

I have pondered that scripture quite a bit. Paul also says, "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror...." That seems like a general statement that applies to everyone in the church including himself. I just don't know which way to take it. Was that your experience? Did you feel you that you "fully knew" all truth? Or could it be talking about knowing Christ fully, as in experiencing Him fully...being fully possessed by His Spirit..? Fully know Him as we are fully known by Him?

Paul often used the term 'we' or 'let us' when he was obviously not including himself. In 2 Cor 5:11-20 It seems the word "we" sometimes refers just to the apostles (eg verse 12-13). Other times it refers to everyone (eg verse 21). However it is often ambiguous (eg verse 14, 20).

Yes I think it means knowing Christ fully, being fully possessed by the Spirit. He longs for this intimacy with a man who is fully submitted to Him so He can reveal Himself safely.

Yes, I think there is a falling away and deception happening now and it is building and getting worse. But the Lord always reserves for Himself a remnant, like Gideon's few good men.

 

[Lizbeth]

They were all in agreement about Theosis and how it is attained in the first few hundred years, and then belief in gradual sanctification grew. It is one or the other and there have always been opposers as Satan has always been active to destroy the number one doctrine he hates, as sinning Christians are no bother to him..

Epi only knows the watered down western view and shows signs that he has only read about it because of the way he acts towards others with that superior attitude and insulting us. It is not uncommon for people to teach it without experiencing it as John Wesley noted. But even if he has, losing that blessing causes confusion on the finer points to which I admit.

There seems to be an aspect of growth (gradual) involved with both states though...? As you mentioned having experienced ES now you need to learn to remain in that state and also to do warfare? I don't think the idea of gradual sanctification (growth) rules out ES/baptism. (Having not experienced ES as far as I know, of course I'm not talking from experience but just trying to understand things.) Even the apostle John wrote that he was in the Spirit on that Lord's day, so it seems to imply that he wasn't always in the Spirit. Maybe growing never stops this side of eternity in either state and we are always to keep reaching for what lies ahead, and that is why Paul wrote we are to thus minded as he and not to consider that we have attained. Makes sense to me.

 

[Johann]

I have pondered that scripture quite a bit. Paul also says, "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror...." That seems like a general statement that applies to everyone in the church including himself. I just don't know which way to take it. Was that your experience? Did you feel you that you "fully knew" all truth? Or could it be talking about knowing Christ fully, as in experiencing Him fully...being fully possessed by His Spirit..? Fully know Him as we are fully known by Him?

We need to be careful--as to epignosis-

Finite Understanding: Humans have finite minds, and our understanding is limited by factors such as language, cultural differences, and personal biases. As 1 Corinthians 13:12 suggests, "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." This passage implies that our knowledge is currently incomplete, and full understanding is something that will be realized in the future, in the presence of God.

Ongoing Learning: The Bible has been studied for centuries by scholars, theologians, and laypeople alike. Despite this, new insights and interpretations continue to emerge, indicating that our understanding of the Bible is always growing. The Holy Spirit is often seen as guiding believers into deeper understanding (John 16:13), but this process is ongoing.

3. Spiritual Growth and Maturity:
Growth in Knowledge: While we may not fully know the Bible in this life, we are called to grow in our knowledge and understanding of it. 2 Peter 3:18 encourages believers to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." This growth is both an intellectual and spiritual journey, where we continually learn and apply biblical truths in our lives.


The statement @Hepzibah provided refers to a passage from 1 Corinthians 13:9-12, which is often discussed in the context of spiritual maturity, knowledge, and the eschatological (end times) vision of perfection.

1. Context of 1 Corinthians 13:9-12
Scripture Passage (1 Corinthians 13:9-12):

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (NIV)
Explanation:

This passage is part of Paul's famous discourse on love (1 Corinthians 13), often called the "Love Chapter." Paul contrasts the current partial understanding of spiritual matters ("we know in part") with the future state of completeness ("then we shall know fully"). The analogy of childhood versus adulthood illustrates the transition from limited understanding to full knowledge.--Question-When?

The phrase "when completeness comes" (or "when that which is perfect is come" in some translations) is generally understood in two primary ways within Christian theology:

Eschatological Fulfillment: Many scholars interpret "completeness" as the final, perfect state in the eschaton (the end times), when believers will see God "face to face," implying a time after Christ's return and the full establishment of God's Kingdom.

Spiritual Maturity: Others interpret this as referring to the process of spiritual growth and maturity in the present life, where believers grow in understanding and holiness. This is what I believe @Hepzibah holds to-

2. Analysis of the Statement
Entire Sanctification:

The idea of "entire sanctification" refers to the process of becoming fully sanctified or holy, often associated with the Wesleyan tradition. It suggests a state of complete consecration to God, where the believer is purified from sin.

A little bit of leaven leavens the entire lump--
Gal_5:9

A little leaven -- This is evidently a proverbial expression.
A small quantity of leaven or yeast will pervade the entire mass of flour, or dough, and diffuse itself through it all. The expression occurs also in 1Co_5:6; Compare the note at Mat_13:33.
A similar figure occurs also in the Greek classic writers - By leaven the Hebrews metaphorically understood whatever had the power of corrupting, whether doctrine, or example, or anything else. See Mat_16:6.
The sense here is plain. A false teacher teaching error can spread corruption throughout the entire church unless it is removed.



While sanctification is a biblical concept (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:23), the specific phrase "that which is perfect is come" in 1 Corinthians 13 is not typically interpreted as referring to entire sanctification. Instead, it more commonly refers to the future state of completeness in knowledge and understanding that will occur when believers are in the direct presence of God.

I think you will agree with me here @Lizbeth ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Seeing God "Face to Face":

The phrase "then we shall see face to face" is usually interpreted as a future event, not a present reality. This is supported by other scriptures that speak of seeing God directly in the afterlife or upon Christ's return (e.g., 1 John 3:2, Revelation 22:4).
In this life, we have glimpses and reflections of God's glory, but the fullness of seeing God "face to face" is generally reserved for the eschatological future.
The Interpretation of "Becoming a Man":

The transition from childhood to adulthood in this passage symbolizes moving from partial to full understanding, rather than a specific reference to the believer's current life on earth. Paul uses this analogy to show that our current spiritual state is like childhood compared to the maturity we will experience in the fullness of time.

3. Corrected Understanding of @Hepzibah post.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 is primarily about the contrast between our current, incomplete understanding of spiritual truths and the future, complete knowledge we will have when we are fully united with God.
The phrase "that which is perfect" most likely refers to the future state of perfection when Christ returns, rather than the present experience of entire sanctification.
"Seeing God face to face" is an eschatological hope, not something that is fully realized in the present life, even though we can grow in spiritual maturity and understanding now.

Hope I'm not confusing you and IF I do, we can go to Koine Greek Lol!
Shalom
Johann.

 

[Johann]

There seems to be an aspect of growth (gradual) involved with both states though...? As you mentioned having experienced ES now you need to learn to remain in that state and also to do warfare? I don't think the idea of gradual sanctification (growth) rules out ES/baptism. (Having not experienced ES as far as I know, of course I'm not talking from experience but just trying to understand things.) Even the apostle John wrote that he was in the Spirit on that Lord's day, so it seems to imply that he wasn't always in the Spirit. Maybe growing never stops this side of eternity in either state and we are always to keep reaching for what lies ahead, and that is why Paul wrote we are to thus minded as he and not to consider that we have attained. Makes sense to me.

Again, you have your head and heart in the right place and can discern "the ditches" in these last days.

 

[Hepzibah]

There seems to be an aspect of growth (gradual) involved with both states though...? As you mentioned having experienced ES now you need to learn to remain in that state and also to do warfare?

Yes. There is the need to know how not to slip back into seeing things from human eyes rather than spiritual, and all of the guiles of the enemy and keep them in mind which is the hardest. But that longing for more closeness with God has been satisfied. He has filled the hole as it were.

I don't think the idea of gradual sanctification (growth) rules out ES/baptism. (Having not experienced ES as far as I know, of course I'm not talking from experience but just trying to understand things.) Even the apostle John wrote that he was in the Spirit on that Lord's day, so it seems to imply that he wasn't always in the Spirit. Maybe growing never stops this side of eternity in either state and we are always to keep reaching for what lies ahead, and that is why Paul wrote we are to thus minded as he and not to consider that we have attained. Makes sense to me.

sister, that bit of Philippians is mistranslated. All of the so called objections to the doctrine can be answered and were done so repeatedly during the Holiness Revels that swept America. I wrote a piece on the Philippian one.

Reaching the state of Theosis eventually becomes static, as in the pillars of the temple no longer going out. But yet here still remains the possibility that one can fall - always remains in this life but harder to restore the longer one goes on as for my experience.

 

[Hepzibah]

"Finite Understanding: Humans have finite minds, and our understanding is limited by factors such as language, cultural differences, and personal biases. "

This is only correct for the carnal mind. The spirit of man is revealed truth by the Spirit.

"A false teacher teaching error can spread corruption throughout the entire church unless it is removed."

How sad that Augustine was not removed.

 

[Lizbeth]

Brethren, how sad it is when the church does not have unity on this, the most important doctrine of all and even less today than ever. For if we get this one wrong, there is no hope for us. We are either in or out of Christ, as in the time of Noah, when you were in or out of the ark. You are either saved from sin or still in it, even if it is not 'habitual sin, whatever that means.

Sin separates us from God - still. We can know of Him but fail to know Him and will be cast out at the end. Most of the church will say 'we are covered by the blood' but the OT still stands - the soul that sinneth it shall die. God has the power to restore us to our original condition, but He did even more. He opened up the way for mankind to eat of the tree of life in this life not the next as our fate is sealed at death (as a tree falleth it will lie Ecc 11:3-10.) Death is said to be our enemy not our friend.

As we will expect, the enemy will try all he can to stop this teaching which has been on the go since the beginning. Paul said in 1 Thess 2:10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. They were obviously questioning him in this very teaching. Of the many forums I have posted on these last 25 years, this one is the only one where the subject is not taken down. So we can expect the enemy to be very active here, in the guise of someone who can twist and turn the scriptures to his benefit. Satan is the number one expert in doing this and leaves his calling mark of turning things upside down.

Which side is right? Is it the one that pleads and warns followers of Christ to obey or the one that speaks with a 'double tongue'? The one that says peace peace where there is no peace and tickles ears?

Let us all beware and discern.

The difference though is that now as believers we do have an Advocate and if we sin we have the opportunity as well as desire to repent and be forgiven. But we certainly are not to abuse this grace and liberty we have by being insincere and using it as a cloak for sin. God is not mocked. I agree in general that the church is setting the bar too low instead of calling and training and building us up higher.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes. There is the need to know how not to slip back into seeing things from human eyes rather than spiritual, and all of the guiles of the enemy and keep them in mind which is the hardest. But that longing for more closeness with God has been satisfied. He has filled the hole as it were.


sister, that bit of Philippians is mistranslated. All of the so called objections to the doctrine can be answered and were done so repeatedly during the Holiness Revels that swept America. I wrote a piece on the Philippian one.

Reaching the state of Theosis eventually becomes static, as in the pillars of the temple no longer going out. But yet here still remains the possibility that one can fall - always remains in this life but harder to restore the longer one goes on as for my experience.

May I ask, have you ever come across someone who no longer "goes out" of it?

 

[Hepzibah]

The difference though is that now as believers we do have an Advocate and if we sin we have the opportunity as well as desire to repent and be forgiven. But we certainly are not to abuse this grace and liberty we have by being insincere and using it as a cloak for sin. God is not mocked. I agree in general that the church is setting the bar too low instead of calling and training and building us up higher.

The verse says if we sin, not when we sin which it would if that was the expectation. We can be restored but as Hebrews tells us it is not easy and man cannot do it, only God so serious a matter it is. And it can take quite some time.

 

[Hepzibah]

May I ask, have you ever come across someone who no longer "goes out" of it?

Not met personally but I believe that the very early bishops were chosen on those terms. Then again I have not been looking for any.