The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

@Ritajanice I am not disagreeing on how we are born-again and all it entails. The disagreement is in the proof of it. Proof that cannot be faked and is reality. If we think we cannot be deceived then chances are we are.

I am ending this discussion thanks. God bless.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Ritajanice I am not disagreeing on how we are born-again and all it entails. The disagreement is in the proof of it. Proof that cannot be faked and is reality. If we think we cannot be deceived then chances are we are.

Of course we can be deceived....yet we are Born Again we all go through trials and tribulations.....God is in control of his children...I’ve been deceived..but...I know that Gods truth will always prevail...we just need the faith to believe what God says....remember our spirit is Born Again not our intellect @Hepzibah ....that seed was planted into our heart/ spirit by God....it can only grow from strength to strength...you don’t need to read a Bible to know in your heart/ spirit that you have been Born Of God’s seed, that can only come by divine revelation..... .God will always get us out of deception..but, it’s good to be in it at times...that’s how we grow in the spirit...

I was deceived by a married couple for over 33 years, long years...God brought me through that deception..because I was gifted the faith to believe what he revealed to my heart regarding this couple...I’ve stopped engaging with their deceit and given them over to God..I have nothing further to do with them @Hepzibah ..only God can bring them to uncover their deceit and lies ...I have no say in the matter......of course this is my side of the story, testimony and belief.

I am ending this discussion thanks. God bless.

Ok..God Bless you too.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't think he said that though. That the flesh was in his members? "Flesh" is the stuff bodies are made of. "Members" refers to "body parts", like arms and legs.


We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, because our perception of ourselves may communicate to ourselves that we are not dead to sin.

This is where the Biblical meaning of death is important. Dead, in the Bible, doesn't specifically mean "inactive", it means separated. Physical death is when the soul is separated from the body. Spiritual death is the spirit separated from God.

John saw "the dead" standing before the great white throne. These have been separated from their bodies, yet they are here standing before God being judged.

We've been separated from our flesh bodies where sin lives by virtue of a new creation. We are no longer alive in the flesh, we are alive in Christ. Yet this flesh, with its corrupt nature, is our only vehicle for interacting in this material world. Driving a wrecked car.

So even though we may not appear to ourselves to be dead to sin, because we still see it active in our fleshiness, just the same, we truly have been separated from it, and we truly are no longer under its power. It only looks like it when we aren't trusting that this is so, and in our lack of faith, not walking in the Spirit.




Romans 6:6 KJV
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

I read this as a statement of potential. Our old man is crucified with Him, "is", this is a certainty. From my studies I've concluded the correct understanding of katargethe, here translated destroyed, is "rendered powerless", unactivated, like that. That we are crucified with Christ - factually true - but that the rendering of our body powerless is "might be".

What makes the "might be" into an experiential reality is that we reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.


I'd agree with this statement. Flesh is more than just the substance of our material being, but also the product of that substance. I like the words, "the physical body as a functioning entity", I think that says it well. The flesh, with it's fleshiness.

As you and I know quite well, our brain's biology has a profound affect on what and how we think and feel. And we also know that it can change, even healing, when we are walking in the Way. Even if we are not walking in the Spirit, making the right choices itself brings healing.

Much love!

I think there are some good insights here Marks. Jesus has died all those deaths for us, as well as having been resurrected.....so through faith IN HIM and when we are walking in Him it all applies to us......by FAITH....and that is what it means where it says having begun in the SPIRIT we are not now going to be perfected by the flesh. I almost equate faith and spirit to be the same thing. Walking by faith is walking in the Spirit.

 

[marks]

Repentance?

Returning to the way is the ceasing of the sin. If you walk in the Spirit, you will not do the works of the flesh. So if you find you are doing works of the flesh, return to walking in the Spirit.

Repentance is when we turn from, repudiate, our old lives, sin/flesh/world, and to Christ in trust and contrition seeking forgiveness. We exchange the old fleshy mind for a new spiritual mind, the mind of Christ.

If we as Christians do those works of the flesh, the one thing that is required is that we stop, and return to a walk in the Spirit, in trust in Jesus Christ. We don't require "fresh forgiveness", having died in Christ, and reborn sharing His resurrection life has turned us into new creations. We don't become the old creation if we commit sin. So we don't have to be re-reborn to continue in fellowship with God. We remain in fellowship with Him. Though if we are committing sin, it's not going to be the same kind of experience as if we were obeying and trusting Him.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are entered into as we are baptized into Christ. Committing a sin does not unbaptize us. We remain forgiven and reconciled. I believe we will disagree on this part. But I also believe the Bible is ironclad in this teaching. Regeneration is forever, because it's in Christ, not me. I've entered into Him. I share His life.

If we believe that our fleshy works separate us again from God that's a faith-killer, and we put ourselves into spiritual weakness, depending on ourselves to mend our behavior so we can get right with God again so we can have fellowship with Him again.

But the Savior I know is with me in the trenches, when I'm at my worst, consider, when do I most need His help? That's when I receive it. God didn't grace me with a stretch of let's just call it sanctification because I was doing well, I'm certain of that!! That is clearly not what happened. And it wasn't because I reached some deeper place of new repentance, or dejection, or something. I believe His promise, I will never leave you, nor forsake you, and it's true, He never has!

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Returning to the way is the ceasing of the sin. If you walk in the Spirit, you will not do the works of the flesh. So if you find you are doing works of the flesh, return to walking in the Spirit.

Repentance is when we turn from, repudiate, our old lives, sin/flesh/world, and to Christ in trust and contrition seeking forgiveness. We exchange the old fleshy mind for a new spiritual mind, the mind of Christ.

If we as Christians do those works of the flesh, the one thing that is required is that we stop, and return to a walk in the Spirit, in trust in Jesus Christ. We don't require "fresh forgiveness", having died in Christ, and reborn sharing His resurrection life has turned us into new creations. We don't become the old creation if we commit sin. So we don't have to be re-reborn to continue in fellowship with God. We remain in fellowship with Him. Though if we are committing sin, it's not going to be the same kind of experience as if we were obeying and trusting Him.

Forgiveness and reconciliation are entered into as we are baptized into Christ. Committing a sin does not unbaptize us. We remain forgiven and reconciled. I believe we will disagree on this part. But I also believe the Bible is ironclad in this teaching. Regeneration is forever, because it's in Christ, not me. I've entered into Him. I share His life.

If we believe that our fleshy works separate us again from God that's a faith-killer, and we put ourselves into spiritual weakness, depending on ourselves to mend our behavior so we can get right with God again so we can have fellowship with Him again.

But the Savior I know is with me in the trenches, when I'm at my worst, consider, when do I most need His help? That's when I receive it. God didn't grace me with a stretch of let's just call it sanctification because I was doing well, I'm certain of that!! That is clearly not what happened. And it wasn't because I reached some deeper place of new repentance, or dejection, or something. I believe His promise, I will never leave you, nor forsake you, and it's true, He never has!

Much love!

marks, what do you think of OT David then? He fell into sin, as one of God's children, and we can read two pentitential Psalms 32 and 51 where he pleads with God for forgiveness and a clean heart:

"1Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin." (Psalm 51:1-2)

He has lost his purity and needs God to renew him. No brushing off the dust there.

In verse 12a, the word "restore" (shûb), "turn back, return," carries the idea of "give back, restore." David has known the joy of God's salvation and rescue before. Now he longs for this joy in fellowship to be restored to him once more

 

[Johann]

marks, what do you think of OT David then? He fell into sin, as one of God's children, and we can read two pentitential Psalms 32 and 51 where he pleads with God for forgiveness and a clean heart:

Context is key here-forgive me for interjecting.

The story of David, especially his experience of sin, repentance, and restoration, offers profound insights into the nature of God’s forgiveness and the process of spiritual renewal. Examining David's penitential Psalms (Psalm 32 and 51) helps us understand the dynamics of repentance before the cross, while comparing it with the understanding of forgiveness and restoration after the cross deepens our comprehension of God's redemptive work through Jesus Christ.

David's Sin and Repentance
David, a man after God's own heart (1 Samuel 13:14), fell into grievous sin involving adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband, Uriah (2 Samuel 11). His penitential Psalms vividly capture his deep remorse and desperate plea for God’s forgiveness and renewal:

Psalm 51:1-2 (NIV):
"Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin."

David acknowledges his sin, appealing to God's mercy and steadfast love. He recognizes his need for cleansing and renewal, indicating a profound understanding of his impurity and a longing for restoration.

Psalm 51:12 (NIV):
"Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me."

The Hebrew word "shûb" (שׁוּב) translated as "restore" signifies a return to a previous state of favor and joy in God’s presence. David has experienced God's salvation and joy before and now seeks to have that joy and fellowship restored.

Before the Cross
In the Old Testament, before the cross, the process of forgiveness and restoration involved sincere repentance, confession of sin, and reliance on God's mercy. The sacrificial system played a crucial role, symbolizing the atonement for sins. David's plea in Psalm 51 reflects this Old Testament understanding of sin and repentance:

Recognition of Sin: David’s psalm shows an acute awareness of his sin and its severity.
Appeal to God’s Mercy: He appeals to God’s unfailing love and compassion, knowing that forgiveness is rooted in God's character.
Desire for Cleansing: The request for cleansing and renewal indicates an understanding that sin defiles and separates one from God.
Restoration of Joy: David longs for the joy of salvation to be restored, highlighting the relational aspect of forgiveness.
After the Cross
With the advent of Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death on the cross, the dynamics of forgiveness and restoration took on a new dimension:

Fulfillment of the Law: Jesus’ death fulfilled the requirements of the law, providing a once-for-all atonement for sin (Hebrews 10:10).
Access to Forgiveness: Forgiveness is now available through faith in Christ, without the need for repeated sacrifices (1 John 1:9).
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit: Believers receive the Holy Spirit, who empowers them to live a life pleasing to God (Ephesians 1:13-14).
Continual Cleansing: While believers are justified once and for all, they still need ongoing sanctification and cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7).
David's Experience in Light of the Cross
David’s heartfelt repentance and plea for renewal in Psalm 51 foreshadows the fuller and more complete forgiveness available through Christ. His experience underscores several key points:

Human Sinfulness: Both before and after the cross, humanity's propensity to sin remains, necessitating God's intervention.
God’s Unchanging Mercy: The basis for forgiveness remains God's mercy and steadfast love, consistent from the Old Testament to the New.
Necessity of Repentance: Genuine repentance is essential for restoration, both for David and for believers under the New Covenant.
Restoration of Joy: The joy of salvation and fellowship with God, lost through sin, can be restored through sincere repentance and faith in Christ.
Conclusion
David’s penitential Psalms powerfully depict the anguish of sin, the necessity of repentance, and the hope of restoration. Before the cross, forgiveness was sought through repentance and sacrifices. After the cross, forgiveness is secured through faith in Christ’s atoning work, leading to a restored relationship with God and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. David’s longing for purity and joy in God’s presence, expressed in Psalm 51, is ultimately fulfilled in the work of Jesus, providing a complete and final solution to sin and its consequences.

Hopefully this will help clear this passage.
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

The sacrificial system played a crucial role, symbolizing the atonement for sins.

The sacrificial system was for those who operated under the OT law and not the mercy of God, which was the way of such as David who walked by faith..

 

[Johann]

The sacrificial system was for those who operated under the OT law and not the mercy of God, which was the way of such as David who walked by faith..

Mercy (חסד, chesed):

The Hebrew word chesed (חֶסֶד) is often translated as "mercy," "lovingkindness," or "steadfast love." It signifies God's covenantal faithfulness and enduring love for His people. Chesed underscores the relational aspect of God's dealings with humanity, emphasizing His gracious and compassionate nature.

Sacrificial System and the OT Law: In the Old Testament, the sacrificial system, known as קָרוֹב (qārōv), which includes offerings and sacrifices, was a central aspect of the תּוֹרָה (tôrâ), or Law, given to the Israelites. This system was detailed in books such as Leviticus and Numbers and was meant to atone for sins and maintain covenantal purity.

Mercy of God: The concept of God's mercy is expressed in Hebrew as חֶסֶד (ḥesed). This term encapsulates God's steadfast love, kindness, and covenant faithfulness. The חֶסֶד of God is shown through His grace and compassion, which are foundational to the relationship He has with His people.

David and Faith: King David is often highlighted as a man of faith. The Hebrew word for faith is אֱמוּנָה (ʾĕmûnâ), which denotes faithfulness, reliability, and trust. David's relationship with God is characterized by his trust in God's promises and his genuine repentance. David's psalms and his acknowledgment of God's mercy reflect this profound trust.



The sacrificial system was a means of maintaining ritual purity and fulfilling the stipulations of the Law but did not exhaust the concept of God's mercy.
David exemplified a life lived by faith (אֱמוּנָה), showing that the relationship with God also involved trust and dependence on His חֶסֶד, even when the sacrificial system was in place.

Your statement might be refined by acknowledging that while the sacrificial system was indeed part of the Old Testament Law, it coexisted with a broader understanding of God's חֶסֶד and the importance of faith. The sacrificial system was never intended to replace a heartfelt relationship with God, characterized by faith and trust in His mercy.

Mercy and Faith in the Old Testament
Figures like David exemplify a profound understanding of God's mercy (chesed) and the importance of faith (emunah). David's relationship with God went beyond mere ritual compliance; it was characterized by a deep, personal trust in God's character and promises.

And yes--David DID--
Yes, David did observe the sacrificial system, as outlined in the Old Testament, particularly in the context of his role as king of Israel. His observance of the sacrificial system can be understood through several key points:

David's Role and Sacrificial Practice: As king, David was expected to uphold the תּוֹרָה (tôrâ), which included the sacrificial system. This system, detailed in the books of Leviticus and Numbers, was an integral part of Israelite religious practice and required offerings and sacrifices for various purposes, including atonement, thanksgiving, and covenant maintenance. David's adherence to these practices is implied in the narrative of his reign, although specific details about his sacrificial practices are sparse.

David's Offerings: There is a notable incident recorded in 2 Samuel 24:18-25 where David offers sacrifices on the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. This event occurred after David's census, which was seen as a sin, and his offering was made to atone for this transgression and to seek God's favor. David's actions in this instance are in line with the requirements of the sacrificial system.

David's Psalms and Sacrifice: David’s psalms often reflect his understanding of the sacrificial system, but they also emphasize the importance of the heart's posture in worship. For example, Psalm 51:16-17 highlights that while God does not delight in sacrifices per se, He values a broken spirit and a contrite heart, which implies an understanding of the deeper spiritual dimensions of sacrifice.

So--, David observed the sacrificial practices mandated by the Law. However, his psalms and other expressions of faith reveal that he also recognized that true worship involved more than mere ritual compliance; it required sincere devotion and a heart aligned with God's will.

Anyways--all done here, you may continue with @marks.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The sacrificial system was for those who operated under the OT law and not the mercy of God, which was the way of such as David who walked by faith..

It is error to claim the Lord did not have mercy under the OT.

Those that walked with the Lord received mercy.
Those that rebelled against the Lord received wrath.

Just like it is now because... sowing and reaping is still in effect under the NT.
To say it is not is mocking God according to Gal 6:7,8

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 11:21,22
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[marks]

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

You had written that Paul said there was something in his members that he called his flesh. I said I didn't think he said that. You posted these verse. But it doesn't say that.

Flesh is the stuff bodies are made of, and members are parts of those flesh bodies.

In the Spirit we are living in reality.

And that reality is that we've been crucified with Christ.

I think we've started talking past each other again.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

You had written that Paul said there was something in his members that he called his flesh. I said I didn't think he said that. You posted these verse. But it doesn't say that.

Flesh is the stuff bodies are made of, and members are parts of those flesh bodies.


And that reality is that we've been crucified with Christ.

I think we've started talking past each other again.

Much love!

Will get back tomorrow, but till then, could you put it in simple words, where you say we differ on entire sanctification that is, when it occurs and what it means.

 

[Hepzibah]

@marks need time to go through this one too, but till then, why did David ask for a pure heart if it was not required under the Old Covenant? That would be his being?

 

[Hepzibah]

I think the more germain questions concern rebirth, myself. I believe I've already been reborn, and you believe we are hoping to attain rebirth one day, right?

I'll think about where this discussion might go.

Much love!

Yes you had an encounter with Christ, and a spiritual awakening and knowledge of the truth, but to be reborn of the Spirit is the next step (re-born) makes a man to be as God intended for him + 1 that is, Adam's innocence then the part that Adam failed in - eating of the fruit of the tree of life.

 

[Hepzibah]

As Jesus told Nicodemus, physical and spiritual are separate, physical birth then spiritual birth then Spiritual rebirth.

 

[Hepzibah]

Basically you are saying then that neither you nor I have been reborn, correct?

Much love!

I have been reborn according to my understanding, 17 years after I first came to Christ..... I say that Nico was already a follower of Christ (in secret).

 

[Johann]

I have been reborn according to my understanding, 17 years after I first came to Christ..... I say that Nico was already a follower of Christ (in secret).

I have been reborn according to my understanding, 17 years after I first came to Christ..... I say that Nico was already a follower of Christ (in secret).

 

[marks]

Yes you had an encounter with Christ, and a spiritual awakening and knowledge of the truth, but to be reborn of the Spirit is the next step (re-born) makes a man to be as God intended for him + 1 that is, Adam's innocence then the part that Adam failed in - eating of the fruit of the tree of life.

At this point if you have a specific question you'd like to ask me I'll be happy to answer you as best I can. Otherwise, I think we see these things very differently, and I don't know what the usefulfness will be to continue.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

At this point if you have a specific question you'd like to ask me I'll be happy to answer you as best I can. Otherwise, I think we see these things very differently, and I don't know what the usefulfness will be to continue.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

At this point if you have a specific question you'd like to ask me I'll be happy to answer you as best I can. Otherwise, I think we see these things very differently, and I don't know what the usefulfness will be to continue.

Much love!

Yes marks, we have come to the sticking point where Protestantism is not found in early church teaching. I believe that my understanding is in accordance with their spiritual understanding of there being three stages : Purgation, Illumination and Theosis. Wesleyism gets a bit nearer. I've come a long way since my Calvinist days. I understand if you have no interest in continuing but thanks marks I have enjoyed our discourse and the respect you show others who differ from you.

 

[Hepzibah]

Oh and by the way @Johann, I am not talking about later Wesleyism which became mixed with Pentecostalism. I noticed that you did not see the distinction somewhere else. John Wesley had nothing to do with charismania.