The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

That is not saying Paul’s flesh went to the cross.you said his flesh went to the cross..now you post this scripture..interpretation that it’s saying Paul’s flesh went to the cross...sowing confusion @Hepzibah ..imo.


That is saying we are crucified with Christ....nothing to do with Paul whatsoever and his flesh going to the cross..that is not biblical.

We are crucified with Christ the moment our spirit becomes Born Again @Hepzibah ?

How would we know that we are crucified with Christ,just by reading the penned word?

Much more to it than that...

Yes when we are born again and our spirit witnesses it.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes when we are born again and our spirit witnesses it.

Please explain.. not saying you are wrong...God brings you, me and everyone else to understanding in the spirit.

When we are Born Again our spirit witnesses what?

I’m not understanding..again I’m not saying your are wrong..I’m just not understanding..thanks.

We’re all on our own journey with the Lord ...I can only understand scripture through revelation...heart/ spirit revelation...I understand nothing in my own strength I have to wait on God to bring it to my understanding in my spirit....we are all learning through the Spirit..it’s great when we are in unity over how we learn by the Spirit Of God..

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't think he said that though. That the flesh was in his members? "Flesh" is the stuff bodies are made of. "Members" refers to "body parts", like arms and legs.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, because our perception of ourselves may communicate to ourselves that we are not dead to sin.

In the Spirit we are living in reality.

This is where the Biblical meaning of death is important. Dead, in the Bible, doesn't specifically mean "inactive", it means separated. Physical death is when the soul is separated from the body. Spiritual death is the spirit separated from God.

John saw "the dead" standing before the great white throne. These have been separated from their bodies, yet they are here standing before God being judged.

We've been separated from our flesh bodies where sin lives by virtue of a new creation. We are no longer alive in the flesh, we are alive in Christ. Yet this flesh, with its corrupt nature, is our only vehicle for interacting in this material world. Driving a wrecked car.

So even though we may not appear to ourselves to be dead to sin, because we still see it active in our fleshiness, just the same, we truly have been separated from it, and we truly are no longer under its power. It only looks like it when we aren't trusting that this is so, and in our lack of faith, not walking in the Spirit.




Romans 6:6 KJV
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

I read this as a statement of potential. Our old man is crucified with Him, "is", this is a certainty. From my studies I've concluded the correct understanding of katargethe, here translated destroyed, is "rendered powerless", unactivated, like that. That we are crucified with Christ - factually true - but that the rendering of our body powerless is "might be".

What makes the "might be" into an experiential reality is that we reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Agreed.

I'd agree with this statement. Flesh is more than just the substance of our material being, but also the product of that substance. I like the words, "the physical body as a functioning entity", I think that says it well. The flesh, with it's fleshiness.

Flesh being all that is opposed to Spirit. Correct?

As you and I know quite well, our brain's biology has a profound affect on what and how we think and feel. And we also know that it can change, even healing, when we are walking in the Way. Even if we are not walking in the Spirit, making the right choices itself brings healing.

Indeed.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Please explain.. not saying you are wrong...God brings you, me and everyone else to understanding in the spirit.

When we are Born Again our spirit witnesses what?

I’m not understanding..again I’m not saying your are wrong..I’m just not understanding..thanks.

We’re all on our own journey with the Lord ...I can only understand scripture through revelation...heart/ spirit revelation...I understand nothing in my own strength I have to wait on God to bring it to my understanding in my spirit....we are all learning through the Spirit..it’s great when we are in unity over how we learn by the Spirit Of God..

Our spirit witnesses that we are born again of God, a new creation, and free from sin.

 

[Ritajanice]

In the Spirit we are living in reality.

What reality are we Living in?

I’m not grilling you..I’m just interested in what the above means to you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Our spirit witnesses that we are born again of God, a new creation, and free from sin.

I think we are more or less on the same wavelength.

I would say as Gods word says..The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.

So yes, agreed, His Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit..Witnesses that Truth to our heart/ spirit...thank you for explaining I appreciate it.

 

[Hepzibah]

Mortal putting on immortality and corruptible putting on incorruptibility both refer to the changing of the nature of our material being. No longer subject to death, and no longer subject to the corruption of sin.

The change is to our flesh, that is everything that is against the Spirit, no longer subject to spiritual death or the corruption of sin. Different perspective.

Much like Paul wrote to the Philippians,

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Here is Young's translation:

Philippians 3:21 YLT
21) who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

Scripture says that glorification is in this life. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:40

Much love!

 

[Ritajanice]

Flesh being all that is opposed to Spirit. Correct?

Yes...just as the penned word of God says.

Romans 8:7-8

King James Version

​

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Hepzibah]

Extended, once, otherwise, inconsistently, as I think we all do.

And it didn't fit the rules others give, but I believe God is unique with each of us, formulas will always fall short, and may or may not describe how God is working with this or that person. Maybe a number of people find commonality with each other and come to consider that such and such only happens after this of that way.

The spiritual pathway has rules just like anything in the physical realm. We know we are on the right path if we find His dealings in the Israelites and the disciples is similar to ours and matching that of spiritual believers through history. The guideposts will be the same as we are liable to be misled.

In my case it was without preamble at a low moment in my life but not lower than other times, nor anything other than God's choice to cause it to be.

I think of this as having been remedial, to show me something I didn't really believe could exist in this life, but I know it can. And it does, to the extent that I forget about any concerns having to do with myself, and to know that I'm fully reconciled to God, that there is nothing I can or cannot do that will change my reconciliation to Him. My reconciliation is not based in my behavior, it's based in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, an accomplished fact that does not change.

OK we disagree here about mans free will to go out.

But having come to experience this, I learned what it was like, and now I know how to be that way, only I still remain inconsistant, I still can get triggered. At the heart it's about faith, that even if I'm on a downswing I remain reconciled, even if it's a rough ride, just hold on, He's not letting me go.

Since I'm fully reconciled, when I veer from the Way, I know there is no prerequisite to returning to it, only, according to my faith.

Repentance?

You know marks, one minute I think we are on the same page then the next I am totally confused because you do not seem to belong to the systemic theologies I know of.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

What reality are we Living in?

I’m not grilling you..I’m just interested in what the above means to you.

The Spirit leads us into all truth which is reality as prescribed by God. If we think we are without sin, yet our thought life betrays that belief then we are not in God's reality.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Spirit leads us into all truth which is reality as prescribed by God. If we think we are without sin, yet our thought life betrays that belief then we are not in God's reality.

Ok, well I read and understand the word differently.

A Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Of God’s seed...that to me means our spirit has been Born Again of Gods seed..that seed being a Living seed, who is Gods witness His Living Holy Spirit...His seed testifies with our spirit that a Born Again does not sin because we have been Born Of God’s seed..remember that seed is Alive in our hearts/ spirit..that seed is the Living Holy Spirit..who witnesses Gods truth to our heart/ spirit..he is our witness there is no other who can witness Gods truth to our spirit.

The flesh that is no longer,.. I has been buried with Christ..it is no longer I that live but Christ in me, the Holy Spirit cannot indwell the heart/ spirit of a sinner.

Now I’m not saying that my flesh was not a sinner of course it was, I still live in that body of sin...that it once used to live.

I’m no longer under death in my spirit...that is the part of us that is reunited back to God once we become Born Again...he no longer sees any sin in us as his spirit children...we have passed from death and are now in the newness of life..we’re in Christ and he in us.
My spirit is right/ reconciled to God the moment I became Born Again.
This is my opinion/ testimony/ belief.

Edit to add @Hepzibah ..I believe it to be the old man in us is the old self, the self centred self who thinks nothing other than it self...this is where I believe the renewing of our minds come into play.

Think Jesus thoughts...not our old self thoughts...which all takes time to understand by the teachings of the Spirit.....I ask God to post as he wills...not as my old self wills..hope that makes sense?

It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t...we’re all learning under God’s power, so all is good.

It’s when we start arguing..not saying you do...that God goes out of the window so to speak, and this old pattern of thought that has been engrained into our pattern of thoughts and thinking.then speaking it out takes over...our old self takes over is what I mean....the amount of times he has shown me this ..yet it needs to penetrate my heart/ spirit....
.imo.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Hepzibah]

Now I’m not saying that my flesh was not a sinner of course it was, I still live in that body of sin...that it once used to live.

The physical body ie cells, can only take part in behaviour that is against the will of God, if it is governed by the flesh, the anti-Spiritual power that we are under if we sin and that includes the thoughts as Jesus said. If we are in the Spirit in reality, then the flesh is dead and has no power over us and we are governed by the Spirit. In this state we are delivered from spiritual death.

This plain and simple meaning can easily be perverted by adding words that are not in scripture.

 

[Ritajanice]

The physical body ie cells, can only take part in behaviour that is against the will of God, if it is governed by the flesh, the anti-Spiritual power that we are under if we sin and that includes the thoughts as Jesus said. If we are in the Spirit in reality, then the flesh is dead and has no power over us and we are governed by the Spirit. In this state we are delivered from spiritual death.

We are in the Spirit as soon as we become Born Again..we are no longer in the flesh...you can’t be in both imo...

Romans 8:9-11

King James Version

​

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


you are either Born Again in your spirit or you are still dead and in sin.

We are delivered from spiritual death as soon as our spirit is Born Again.

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Ritajanice]

that includes the thoughts as Jesus said

God also says that a “ Born Again “ does not sin because they have been Born Of God’s seed.

Nowhere in Gods word does he say that a Born Again sins...

They can’t sin...that can only come through divine revelation...a Born Again doesn’t sin, I can’t and won’t go against God’s word that is witnessed to my my heart by Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit.

 

[Hepzibah]

We are in the Spirit as soon as we become Born Again..we are no longer in the flesh...you can’t be in both imo...you are either Born Again in your spirit or you are still dead and in sin.

Yes agree entirely.

We are delivered from spiritual death as soon as our spirit is Born Again.

Yes but we now have the choice whereas before we came to Christ, we do not. Scripture is full of warnings about this very thing. If indeed we are of the Spirit, ie walking therein, we do not sin, in thought word or deed.

So when we come to the conundrum of scripture saying that one who walks in the Spirit does not sin, and the reality of those who think they are walking in the Spirit, and who cannot confess to sinlessness, then the only logical conclusion is, that although they have had a taste of the heavenly gift, and once loved God with the whole heart soul and mind (and would rather die than sin) they have fallen from their first love and need to repent to get back to where they were, in the kingdom.

​

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes agree entirely.


Yes but we now have the choice whereas before we came to Christ, we do not. Scripture is full of warnings about this very thing. If indeed we are of the Spirit, ie walking therein, we do not sin, in thought word or deed.

Choice...what choice?...A Born Again doesn’t sin..that is the word of God, now you’re saying a Born Again sins...which is void..because it’s not the word of God regarding his Born Again children...

Why are you dismissing Gods word when he says a “ Born Again “ doesn’t sin..why are you adding to his word?

1 John 3:9​

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

So when we come to the conundrum of scripture saying that one who walks in the Spirit does not sin, and the reality of those who think they are walking in the Spirit, and who cannot confess to sinlessness, then the only logical conclusion is, that although they have had a taste of the heavenly gift, and once loved God with the whole heart soul and mind (and would rather die than sin) they have fallen from their first love and need to repent to get back to where they were, in the kingdom.

Why would a Born Again repent of their sin?....we already repented once and once only...our slate is wiped clean God sees no sin in his Son and the Born Again are in Gods Son....he sees our sin no more....we have been set from the death of sin and the alienation from God....we’re in the Spirit..we’re Alive in Gods Spirit he’s Alive in our spirit.

How can a Born Again confess to sinning..when Gods word clearly states a Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Of God’s seed?

Just as his word says.

1 John 3:9​

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

I wait for scripture that a “ Born Again “ sins.

Of course we’re not without sin, who said we were?

Our sin has been forgiven and God sees no sin in us..why because his seed cannot indwell a sinner...he cannot indwell our heart/ spirit unless we have repented and been forgiven by His Spirit...even then the repenting is all of God only he can bring us to repentance we wouldn’t know how....God is the only Spirit who can draw us to Jesus, bring us to repentance/ Godly sorrow and gift us the faith to believe in Jesus in our spirit..we can only initially believe in Jesus.....God given faith is when we become Born Again by His Spirit...you can’t understand the death and resurrection of Jesus without being Born Of The Spirit..impossible.. without God’s witness His Living Holy Spirit we are still dead and alienated from God.

 

[Hepzibah]

A born again does not sin. A sinner is not born again (anymore or has never been). This is spiritual birth of which we are talking, not a physical birth that cannot be reversed. Jesus said to Nicodemus what is flesh is flesh, what is spirit is spirit. No mixing of categories. To be born *again* of the Spirit is not what a lot of people say it is.

 

[Ritajanice]

A born again does not sin. A sinner is not born again (anymore or has never been). This is spiritual birth of which we are talking, not a physical birth that cannot be reversed. Jesus said to Nicodemus what is flesh is flesh, what is spirit is spirit. No mixing of categories. To be born *again* of the Spirit is not what a lot of people say it is.

Only the Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children/ Born Again, that can only come by divine revelation/ Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Reading scripture does not make our spirit Born Again...only Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit can do that, just as the penned word backs up the witness the Living Holy Spirit who testifies Gods truth to our heart/ spirit..that is a supernatural act...you can’t see God testifying with our spirit that we are his children...it’s testified to our spirit....by His Living witness His Living Holy Spirit...

 

[Hepzibah]

Only the Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children/ Born Again, that can only come by divine revelation/ Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Reading scripture does not make our spirit Born Again...only Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit can do that, just as the penned word backs up the witness the Living Holy Spirit who testifies Gods truth to our heart/ spirit..that is a supernatural act...you can’t see God testifying with our spirit that we are his children...it’s testified to our spirit....

Thank you Ritajanice, we see things differently.

 

[Ritajanice]

Thank you Ritajanice, we see things differently.

I quoted scripture on how we become Born Again.

It’s not about us..it’s about the word of God and his truth...that’s what I posted the word of God...nothing added, nothing taken away.

It’s when we add to Gods word...that’s when the confusion sets in...other than that .....Gods word on how we become Born Again is very simple to understand in “ our spirit “ that is where we understand his word as we are his spirit children..as his word says....The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children....he speaks/ witnesses his truth to our spirit ...it’s a Living spirit birth you can’t read that into being.....in Jesus Name!.. Amen!