The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[marks]

In Romans 6 he is talking about what one should be, that sin should be dead

In Romans 6 he is saying we are dead to sin. Therefore do not sin.

Being made dead to sin, we are admonished to not sin.

Romans 6:3-14 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Having died to sin, we are to reckon ourselves dead (why?), and we are to not let sin rule in our mortal bodies. We we have to reckon ourselves dead to sin, are we really dead to sin? Wouldn't it be a given that we are dead to sin? But we are told to reckon it.

Being dead to sin, we are told, don't let sin rule in your body (body?). But if we are dead to sin, doesn't that make this moot? Being dead to sin, we are told to not yield our "members" (body parts) to sin. But if we are dead to sin, how could we?

These questions have no answer if being crucified with Christ, being raised with Him, being dead to sin, meant that we were completely done with sinning. But if rebirth is in a new creation spirit, while we still live in corrupt bodies, in which sin still lives, all of this is completely understandable.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When he says not I, I take that to mean he does not approve of himself and what he was doing.

Is that what he wrote?

Romans 7:17 KJV
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

The questions do have an answer.,

Paul is describing in chapter 6 what being in Christ means. Dead to sin, for which we have reckoned. We have to reckon it because all who come to Christ find that they are indeed not dead to sin in reality and if they really care, they will want to know how to stop sinning as so many scriptures say 'stop sinning!'.

Paul had not done this and therefore the battle in his flesh brought him to his knees: o wretched man!

The teaching throughout the NT is for these believers who are sill in that battle inside who need to come to Romans 7.

 

[Hepzibah]

OK then @marks, what do you say is going on?

 

[Episkopos]

Is that what he wrote?

Romans 7:17 KJV
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Much love!

Outward sins can be stopped by human means.....through devotion, discipline, consecration....love of the truth, etc.

But inward sins can ONLY be overcome by a change of nature where there is love, joy, and peace, that pushes aside...opinions, human evaluations, unbelief, self-interest, false judgments, railings, lusts, etc.

Only by the power of the Spirit are the works of the flesh overcome.

Paul was already blameless in his walk according to the law...he was fulfilling the law outwardly. But the law is spiritual, and reveals our true spiritual state, even as that is hidden from others...and ourselves.

 

[Hepzibah]

Well well, here we have the three interpretations of Romans 7 before us.

1) @Episkopos says the Pharisee Paul
2) @marks says the normal Christian life
3 me says it is the ABnormal Christian life where a work of God is required ie Spirit baptism as a second work of grace.

 

[Hepzibah]

Interpreting Romans 7.

There have been two interpretations of Romans 7 which have dominated church history and which are sometimes known as the Primitive and the Post-Primitive. Augustine held to the Primitive in his early years, as did some of the Church Fathers and writers before Augustine, but changed his stance later. The reason that he changed was due to his heated discourses with Pelagius. There have been two interpretations widely held since Augustine, the original and the one from Augustine called the Post Primitive which did not exist before he adopted and popularised it. The third, was held by Pelagius and claims that sinlessness is possible in this life.

We must conclude that the man depicted in Romans 7 is a) a man who has only just come to Christ for forgiveness and has attempted previously to be righteous through obeying the law, (or as commonly known as an unbeliever) and the Primitive view, b) the normal state of a Christian which is held by Calvinists in the main and brought in by Augustine and c) the believer who has come to the crisis in his faith and inability to keep God’s law in the manner that he knows he must, whereby he will be delivered from the body of sin to the state where there is no more condemnation, the view which became widespread during the ‘Celtic period’, and Holiness Movement of the 19th C. There is no other viable interpretation of these texts.

The Primitive view and the one which is widely held today for example by many Arminians, is that Romans 7 describes the salvation experience and Paul is writing as an unregenerate soul. Augustine said: “It is understood that man here described who was never under grace” (Homilies). This is the view that Augustine held until Pelagius challenged him over his view that man is totally depraved.

“In his argument, Pelagius referred to the passage under consideration, saying that this was a palpable case in which, by the universal assent of the church, the state and character of the unregenerate man is described. He then asked, if approving the right, and hating the wrong, and 'delighting in the law of God' did not imply that there was something good even in such a man? Augustine could not deny the fact, the case being so palable, of the universal agreement of the church in the deduction that it was the unregenerate man referred to in the passage; nor did he perceive how, admitting the correctness of the universally received exposition, he could meet the argument of his opponent. Under such perplexity, Augustine denied the validity of his own and the universal, and adopted the few and before, unheard of, exposition, a most needless resort and a most calamitous one for the spiritual good of the church” (J Schmidz Romans 7)

Augustine did not accept Pelagius’ argument and agree with his interpretation. Pelagius was trying to show Augustine that Romans 7 was not to be understood as the so called Primitive view but the Apostolic view. Augustine realised his first view was untenable that Paul described the unregenerate but the second view was untenable for Augustine because it says that man can stop sinning.

Pelagius taught the Apostolic view which is that Paul is speaking about the Christian in Romans 7 but not in what should be his normal condition. Those who do not accept the view that it is a Christian speaking point to the fact that there is no mention of grace or of the work of the Holy Spirit in the chapter. But this is not because there is no Holy Spirit or grace. Far from it. The opposite is true actually. However, the person describing it is not aware of it. It seems as though God has deserted actually, as the person comes to an extreme point because God has convicted the man of his sinfulness. Paul is discussing experience here not doctrine. He came to a point of time when he saw himself as God saw him as he sought acceptance through the works of the law. And all Christians seek to do this unless they adopt Augustine’s position and excuse their sin. and until they come to the point whereby they admit their powerlessness.

The misunderstanding of the early writers teachings in saying that Romans 7 is the unregenerate person could be that some meant an unregenerate person as a believer who has not arrived at the sanctification experience, which was what Wesley meant by the 'Almost Christian' In the Bible, salvation sanctification and justification are all one event but describing the differing aspects of it. This could means that one is not really saved until they are entirely sanctified. Jesus came to save us from our sins and until this is done, then we are still in them and not saved even though we have been given 'The power to become the son's of God' as a possibility but not yet an actuality until the provision of sanctification through the cross, is appropriated by man and he is delivered from not just the penalty from sin but also the power and the presence.

This Apostolic view has been rejected by most of the church through the ages and the reason why Pelagius has had such bad press. By his dispute with Augustine and his understanding of Romans 7, he did not teach that the Christian could stop sinning on his own accord. Far from it. It needed the divine interaction of God to bring about the change or deliverance needed to get Paul from Romans7 to Romans 8.

 

[marks]

OK then @marks, what do you say is going on?

Colossians 3:1-9 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7) In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Having died with Christ, having been raised with Him, having been hid with Christ in God, having been promised that we shall appear with Him in glory, when He appears,

We are nonetheless told, Kill your body parts that are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, and so forth.

Much love!

 

[marks]

2) @marks says the normal Christian life

I don't recall saying that. I don't really like to paraphrase some characterization of a passage, I prefer to just quote it and focus on what it tells us.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

1) If ye then be risen with Christ,

IF you are risen with Christ, stop sinning.

 

[marks]

IF you are risen with Christ, stop sinning.

Since you are risen with Christ, put to death your body parts that are on the earth.

You are in heaven, your body is on earth.

Colossians 3:1-5 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

The new creation spirit is a celestial being.

2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Ephesians 2:5-6 KJV
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Are these truths "positional" or "actual"?

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

IF you are risen with Christ, stop sinning.

But you say they should but can't.

 

[Hepzibah]

Saying the spirit of man is pure and can exist in a corrupted body is Gnostic heresy.

 

[marks]

Romans 7:21-25 KJV
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But you say they should but can't.

Did I say that? I don't recall saying that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Saying the spirit of man is pure and can exist in a corrupted body is Gnostic heresy.

It's Bible. As I've been posting these passages for some time now.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

Did I say that? I don't recall saying that.

Much love!

You say that man must serve the law of sin in his body

 

[marks]

Saying the spirit of man is pure and can exist in a corrupted body is Gnostic heresy.

Romans 7:22-25 KJV
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Two state simultaneously existing. With the mind I serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Two states, both present.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I am enjoying this! But I am now going to read Irenaeus Against Heresies and will get back tomorrow hopefully.

 

[marks]

You say that man must serve the law of sin in his body

No, I say what the Bible says. The flesh serves the law of sin. I myself serve the law of God.

Romans 7:22-25 KJV
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Much love!