The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Hepzibah]

All I know is what the Bible says.

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The inheritance of purity is for this life. Scripture says on many occasions that we are given a pure heart - in this life, and many prayers in the OT are exactly for that. You are making the mistake of thinking that just because it is reserved in heaven (heavenly places) that cancel out all of these verses. This is cherry picking. It even says it is when we are born again. (Disagreement about when that is).

It says that it does not fade away because this time, compared to the previous experience of Christian life, that is the carnal stage, it does fade - 'prone to wander Lord I feel it'. The presence of God remains and the holiness sticks.

Paul is talking about this lack in Gal 3:1 where he rebukes them for not going on to perfection and staying in the carnal state.

Ready to be revealed in the last time refers to this as it usually occurs at this later stage.

Faith is God's power in you, keeping you "unto salvation". You must escape from God's keeping power if you wish to leave your salvation.

Ephesians 4:29-30 KJV
29) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We are told to grieve not the Holy Spirit because it is possible to do so and most do which is why they do not go on to perfection. They remain carnal in their sins, but you say they were never converted which scripture is very clear about in many places which all must be taken together.

You are owned by God, Who has put His seal of ownship on you, to protect His interest until the day comes that He collects His purchased possession. Will you undo His claim of ownship over you, successfully violating His seal?

There's your TULIP showing again. Again free will in the early church fighting against Gnosticism or today Calvinism.

Would you in fact undo your unity with Christ in His death and resurrection? Undo spiritual baptism into Jesus?

Romans 6:3-7 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The expectation that we will in fact become like Jesus that causes us to purify ourselves . . .

So you have been free from sin since you were converted? I think you have denied that somewhere.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Should I continue?

Do you foresee yourself choosing to no longer believe in God? To no longer be a new creation? Are you actually able to make those kinds of choices?

Much love!

Ditto.

I'm thinking if we are to proceed on this topic that it should be the examination of particular passage in a search for what they do and do not say.


This passage, to me, is clearly stated. The sow returns to it's wallow, and the sinner returns to their sin. In neither case was the nature changed. Both retain their original nature.

No marks, it says 'returns'. The nature was changed but reverted back. The sinner was for a while not a sinner.


This is not a passage telling about the possible fate of the regenerate. If it were, how could John write, that being God's children, when we see Him we will be like Him? Doesn't your view require that you add a condition not given in the passage? We will be like Him, if we do, if we don't, if we something? We will be like Him when we see Him.

Here is another. This was very interesting to me, it seems to speak clearly, in the English translation, that salvation is conditional on performance:

Hebrews 3:14 KJV
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Doesn't it sound that way?

View attachment 48264

"We have become" is in the Perfect tense, an action completed with enduring result. People read this passage and consider the condition "if we hold our confidence to the end" as determining whether we "remain" partakers of Christ, however, that's not what the verse says.

It says IF marks. This means we may not. Holding it to the end means we become partakers.

"If we hold our confidence to the end" is what determines whether we "have become partakers of Christ".

The plain saying to this passage is, If you've become a partaker of Christ, you will hold your confidence to the end. If you do not hold your confidence to the end, it means you did not become a partaker of Christ. Do you see the distinction?

No marks it is not saying that. It says IF we hold our confidence. There is a choice here of remaining in the first state.

Here is a passage which many read and fear they may not be good enough to be saved, or may not stay good enough. But the reality is that it presupposes a permament salvation which if you have received, you will hold on to the end, but if you haven't, you won't.

Which agrees exactly with John, "If they were of us they would have remained".

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't consider that I've trained myself or anything like that, only that I've studied this a deeply as I can for many years. I used to comb through the internet to find people's lists of verses where they say it's taught you can lose rebirth. I've never found one that says that. And many that say you don't.

Even when people's lists used the same verses, I looked at them all again. And again. And again.

@ lizbeth puts this as "already and not yet", I like that wording, I think it describes some of what is in the Bible.

Yes there are verses to back up each side and it is not as clear cut as we would like. There is the keeping us, preserving us, in that state of having the inheritance, that is possible without us losing our free will to leave, in the way that scripture warns repeatedly about. There is a balance here.

Then there is Jude:

21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Yes He does keep - or protect us from falling, often by the words of a brother when we may be at risk of falling away or other means but you are saying that it is all of Him and we cannot fall. marks there are too many cases when men did fall away. I know three of them and one died yes without coming back though he could have recounted on his death bed. Okay I am sure you will say he was not saved. It is so easy to fool ourselves by letting our mind do summersaults.

It is not in the character of God to impose anything on us. Jesus always gave people the choice of walking away.

Romans 6:5-14 KJV
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

In this passage, being baptized into Christ crucifies us with Him. Now we are dead with Christ, and being dead, are freed from sin. So we are to reckon ourselves from from sin . . . why? Why "reckon"? Because we don't see it right away in the outer man.

If the body of sin has been destroyed, how can it come back to life to slip up again? You are adding a separation between the inner and outer man that does not apply here. The truth is that this portion is not referring to the time when a sinner came to Christ for forgiveness. It happens later in reality.

Being dead in Christ, and therefore free from sin, dead indeed to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord, we are then admonished to not let sin rule us (as though it could, and might), to not yield our members to sin (as though we could, and might), but instead to yield ourselves to God as those alive from among the dead ones (because we can, and we are).

Again, the main key to this passage is whether or not you are baptized into Christ's death and burial.

Paul identifies his audience that way here:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

"IF you be risen with Christ", if that is you, it means, "for you are dead". And if this is you, it means, "then shall ye also appear with Him in glory."

Having made that promise - yes, promise - he goes on to say,

Colossians 3:5-7 KJV
5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7) In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Salvation is to be immersed into Jesus in His death and burial, which if this is you, you will, you shall, God's promise, appear with Jesus in glory.

So that being the case, what does the apostle write? Put to death your body parts that are on the earth, and he goes on to list various sins, evil character.

Because he is speaking to those in the church who have not reached the stage of perfection.

This is all saying, If you've been baptized into Jesus, you've died with Him, risen with Him, and will appear with Him, so stop sinning. These are the plain sayings of these passages. Do you agree that this is what they say? If not, what do they say? Please be specific, it's the best way for both of us to learn.

The simple reason is that the baptism does not occur at what you call conversion. It is plainly obvious. Men struggle with their sins until the real baptism comes along. They hear the truth and repent. Here comes revival!

Much love!

 

[face2face]

We just need to read each passage exactly as written.

True wisdom not only reads the passage but compares Scripture with Scripture to gain truth.

These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

If you are a literal reader of the Word you are less likely to find hidden wisdom.

On this subject my experience so far is the OSAS like to quote all the good bits, highlighting, bold text, CAPS, colour text etc staying well away from the warnings. In fact, I am yet to see a OSAS believer in this forum talk to the warnings.

Ultimately the OSAS must believe in their heart that God is a God Who doesn’t follow through on His Word / Warnings.

F2F

 

[Hepzibah]

I see some of the problem here, is that one side think that Arminian theology, says that all who are NOSAS think they could come at any time they like and turn to Christ and so believe in works salvation.

But I do not believe in this idea, I think that God has an appointed time for each man who comes into the world, John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. The verse shows that He gives every man a chance, (no TULIP) but other verses mean that He appoints when. He gives each man light and it is up to the man if he will respond with faith.

I don't how how often I have heard people say 'I did nearly become a Christian one day'.

 

[Hepzibah]

Every human man HAS SIN “with” him in this LIFE.

No it says all have sinned - past. All men have sinned but not all men sin.

 

[Taken]

Hepzibah
No it says all have sinned - past. All men have sinned but not all men sin.

Your “No” response is in error.

All are conceived and born IN SIN.
As well…
All have committed SIN.

Therefore it is NOT either or…it is BOTH, that is correct.

And Yes…”some” men are Forgiven and SIN “NO MORE”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Hepzibah]

Your “No” response is in error.

All are conceived and born IN SIN.
As well…
All have committed SIN.

Therefore it is NOT either or…it is BOTH, that is correct.

And Yes…”some” men are Forgiven and SIN “NO MORE”.

Glory to God,
Taken

Not getting into original sin atm.

 

[Taken]

Not getting into original sin atm.

Simply stating facts.

 

[face2face]

Simply stating facts.

It's not about original sin it's about inherited mortality.
Nature with a bias toward sin.
F2F

 

[Taken]

It's not about original sin it's about inherited mortality.
Nature with a bias toward sin.
F2F

“IT” as you say…is “about inherited mortality”… was NOT the topic of discussion, regarding receiving salvation and THEN having the received salvation TERMINATED.

Try to stay ON POINT.

You offered Rom 11:22 to support your view…
BUT
Rom 11:22 does NOT support your view, that received Salvation can be terminated.

Try Again.


t

 

[marks]

You are making the mistake of thinking that just because it is reserved in heaven (heavenly places) that cancel out all of these verses. This is cherry picking.

There's your TULIP showing again. Again free will in the early church fighting against Gnosticism or today Calvinism.

I wonder that you've gotten some wrong ideas about me.

Should I continue?

I think we should put this to rest a bit, and maybe talk about when a person is born again, and what that means, if you are interested.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It says IF marks. This means we may not. Holding it to the end means we become partakers.

I'd suggest you review my comments, and maybe look at the grammar of the passage.

Holding on to the end means we actually had become partakers. Not holding on means we did not. That's what it says. All I can do is go with what it says.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes there are verses to back up each side and it is not as clear cut as we would like.

I disagree.

But I'm not interested in another OSAS debate.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I wonder that you've gotten some wrong ideas about me.

I know that you do not identify as a Calvinist @marks, but you are holding to one of their dogmas OSAS.

I think we should put this to rest a bit, and maybe talk about when a person is born again, and what that means, if you are interested.

Yeah, me too. I am still working though some things.

Born again yes but again, changed position from the usual one, that coming to Christ means we are born again. I dispute it because we are not a new creature in accordance to the NT in that we still sin until we come to entire sanctification, if we believe in that and I know you don't..

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don't how how often I have heard people say 'I did nearly become a Christian one day'.

It's always interesting to me how different our various experiences are. I've never heard anyone say anything like this. There was my friend Sandy many years ago, she said, I tried Christianity, but it didn't work. But that's all I've heard someone say in that vein.

It's like the many people who say none of the churches talk about sin and repentance and the like, but most churches I've been in - not all, but most by far - do.

Maybe it's because we are in different parts of the world, and where you live and where I live are very different. I live in Orange County California, and the "Jesus Movement" of the late 60's never stopped having an effect here. There are still lots of Christians, in good Bible teaching churches.

I've been forced to conclude that as much as I dislike living in this area, spiritually, I have a lot of brothers and sisters.

Regardless, it's the differences that make this forum so interesting!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The inheritance of purity is for this life.

Though it's not an inheritance of incorruptability, it's an incorruptible inheritance, that's different. I think these distinctions are very important.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There's your TULIP showing again. Again free will in the early church fighting against Gnosticism or today Calvinism.

In fact, the Scripture says that God put His seal of ownership on you. The fact that I acknowledge and believe the plain saying of this passage doesn't say anything about my supposed TULIP, which in fact I am not Calvinist. Not at all.

The passage says this. I don't say it, God said it. What more can I say? Do you think the verse says something different?

Ephesians 4:30 KJV
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I know that you do not identify as a Calvinist @marks, but you are holding to one of their dogmas OSAS.

The fact that I believe the Bible teaches permanent rebirth has nothing to do with Calvin. It's me and Jesus and my Bible, and I read what it says, and believe what I read.

This is why I'm not big on giving personal testimony, that's way below the saying of Scripture. So are commentaries, of whatever era, way below Scripture. I'm all about simply learning what the Bible says, what the words and grammar and all mean, and once I've determined that, to believe what it says. For me the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible.

So no, I'm not holding to Calvinist dogma, even if you feel you see a similarity between something I say and something Calvin said.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah, me too. I am still working though some things.

I'd suggest a detailed study and a month or more of rereadings of Romans 6. Seriously, it's what I do. I comb through word by word. I don't know how many hundreds of times I've read those chapters. The passage is very clear. It tells us, to those who are baptized into Christ, that you have died, that you are now free from sin, so don't sin any more.

And there are many other places that speak in just that same way.

So here again, I'm hanging my hat on this specific verses, for what they specifically say, and what else can I do?

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I'd suggest a detailed study and a month or more of rereadings of Romans 6. Seriously, it's what I do. I comb through word by word. I don't know how many hundreds of times I've read those chapters. The passage is very clear. It tells us, to those who are baptized into Christ, that you have died, that you are now free from sin, so don't sin any more.

And there are many other places that speak in just that same way.

So here again, I'm hanging my hat on this specific verses, for what they specifically say, and what else can I do?

Much love!

@marks I have spent huge amounts of my time on Romans 6 7 & 8 and written about them. My old Bible is full of underlines and notes on those chapters! It is my favourite part of the Bible and sorely misunderstood by those who think Paul is described in chapter 7 as a Pharisee, or for Calvinists, a normal Christian life. It is neither but most do not know that there is a third interpretation. My guess is that you think the Pharisee?