The Veil of Veronica and the Shroud of Turin.

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Magdala

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On the following dates, Maria Valtorta received and described these visions:

February 19th, 1944
Burial of Jesus

March 27th, 1945
Jesus's Crucifixion

On the following dates, Maria Valtorta took dictation from Jesus regarding
the Veil of Veronica, now commonly called the Manoppello Veil, and the Shroud of Turin:

"Can you say that I have not loved this land [Italy], where I have brought the relics of My life and My death: the house in Nazareth where I was conceived in an embrace of luminous ardor between the Divine Spirit and the Virgin, and the Shroud where the sweat of My Death imprinted the sign of My pain, suffered for humanity." (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1943, July 22nd, 1943)

__________________________________________

"The wounds in My palms, which you have not seen because I barely move My left hand, both because of the habit contracted in work and because it is more wounded, were inflicted in the following way.

The executioners' idea was to hang Me by the wrist joints, immediately above the carpus, to make the attachment more secure. And, in fact, after having extended Me on the cross, they pierced My right hand at this point.

But, since the builder of the scaffold had marked the hole on the left (he usually marked the place for the nails to enable them to enter more easily into the thick wood and make the hanging of a body placed not horizontally, but vertically, and with no other support but three long nails, more secure), more distant than the point which My wrist joint could reach, after having stretched My arm to the point of producing the tearing of My tendons, they decided to hammer the nail into the center of My palm, between the bones of the metacarpus.

This is not observed in the Turin Shroud because the right hand covers the left hand." (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1943, December 29th, 1943)

__________________________________________

"The veil of veronica is also a goad to your skeptical souls. Since you, o rationalists, o tepid people vacillating in your faith, proceed through arid examinations, compare the face of the veronica with that of the Holy Shroud. One is the Face of a living person, the other of a dead one. But length, width, somatic types, form, distinctive features, are identical. Superimpose the images. You will see that they correspond. It is I. I Who wanted to remind you how I was and how I had become out of love for you. If you had not gone astray, if you were not blind, those two Faces should be enough to bring you to love, to repentance, to God." (excerpt from The Poem of the Man-God: Vol V, February 2nd, 1944)

__________________________________________

"You have seen the wreath of bruises around My kidneys. Your scientists—to offer proof for your incredulity regarding that proof of My suffering which is the Turin Shroud—explain the manner in which blood, cadervic sweat, and an overstrained body, in being mixed with the aromas, were able to produce that natural painting of My lifeless, tortured Body.

It would be better to believe with no need for so many proofs in order to believe. It would be better to say: 'This is the work of God!' and bless God, Who has granted you possession of the irrefutable proof of My crucifixion and the tortures preceding it!

But since you are no longer able to believe, now, with the simplicity of children, but need scientific proofs—poor faith, yours, which, without the prop and goad of science, is unable to stand up straight and walk—know that the fierce wounds to My kidneys were the most powerful chemical agent in the miracle of the Turin Shroud. My kidneys, nearly shattered by the scourges, were no longer able to function. Like those of people burned in a blaze, they were unable to filter, and the urea accumulated and spread throughout My Blood and My Body, causing the sufferings of uremic intoxication and the reagent transuding from My Corpse which fixed the impress upon the cloth. But whomever among you is a doctor or whoever among you is ill with uremia can grasp the sufferings which the uremic toxins must have caused Me, so abundant as to leave an indelible imprint." (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1944, February 20th, 1944)

__________________________________________

"But on the Turin Shroud the face of someone dead for several hours appears. The usual process of edema had already begun, then, all the more intense in someone killed with torture like Mine. It is the transudates spreading from the serous membranes which make you say that a dead person looks the way he did when alive. It is the great pacification which death extends over even the most tortured faces.

In addition, consider that the image appears on a cloth and is fixed upon it through a process of natural aromas and salts.

You know that any stain on a cloth appears prone to expand. But in reality the features of My Face on the morning of the Resurrection—that is, when I ceased to be covered by the Turin Shroud—were swollen in this way.

Life returned to the Living One. But during those forty hours I was quite dead and in no way different from every man who is prey to death. I did not decompose because of the swift Resurrection. But My Body was subject to the rule common to dead bodies, especially those dying of innumerable wounds. I as Victim wanted to annihilate Myself in this respect, too. All decomposition begins with swelling. Let this be directed to all who still have doubts about the veracity of My death." (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1944, July 20th, 1944)

__________________________________________

"Now, you know that only a real body yields blood if wounded and that only a real corpse presents a separation of the water part of the blood—which you term 'serum'—from the other, which coagulates into clots or at least is already thicker and darker than living blood, if the time elapsed between death and the discharge of blood is still too short. But I—as My Turin Shroud attests—discharged blood that was already clotted because I had been dead for some time when My side was stricken, and I was already growing cold and stiff, very quickly, on account of the specific conditions which had brought about My rapid death." (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1945-1950, February 18th, 1947)

__________________________________________

"My Turin Shroud, O Maria, for whoever is able to see, is not just a testimony that I truly died and rose again, but also testifies to the way I was conceived and born, not according to the laws of humanity. It is thus a confirmation of the truths that My religion teaches: My being conceived through the action of the Holy Spirit, the Divine Maternity of Mary, Her perpetual virginity, My Passion and Death, and My glorious Resurrection. But this is confirmation for those to whom it is granted to see, in the light of God." (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1945-1950, May 20th, 1949)


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Magdala

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Rockerduck

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Welcome back. Post #2 is the face of Jesus, because Jesus showed me that the image in the shroud is He. I still don't believe Marie V. is a prophet. Post #1 is not Jesus or is a messed-up copy. Post #2 is the face of Jesus.
 
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Magdala

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Part I

I still don't believe Marie V. is a prophet.

Jesus explained to Maria Valtorta the following:

"You are nothing but a spokesman and a channel in which the wave of My Voice flows, but as I take you, I could take any other soul. Just taking it would make it capable of being a channel and spokesman of the Voice of Christ, for My touch works a miracle. But you are nothing. Nothing more than someone in love.

My spokesman are found either among the pure or among sinners who are really converted."

"I speak where I want to. I speak to whomever I want to. I speak the way I want to. I have no limitations." (excerpts from The Notebooks: 1943, July 19th, 1943)

"In all of this teaching of Mine, no lesson or vision is given without My pursuing an educational purpose of Mine which you do not understand or understand after a delay and partially. If you meditated with insightful lucidity, you would see that the lessons I give you with the dictations or contemplations of the spokesman are always related to events soon to take place, I do so to give you supernatural aid. These pages—since the world is not completely savage—will do a lot of good to souls, in the future, too, because they contain teachings of eternal Knowledge; but for you, living in this fatal hour [World War II), they are also a guide and a comfort for the times you are living through." (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1944, March 16th, 1944)​

There are those who disbelieve, but then there are those who lend credence to Maria Valtorta's claims, such as the following professors, doctors, and other experts:

(I) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented “writing tool”? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.

(II) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

It seems that she has written down observations and facts that really happened at the time of Jesus’ life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge. In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible.

(III) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:

An additional line of incontrovertible evidence (which Valtorta was encouraged by Jesus to include for the benefit of “the difficult doctors” of the Church) deals with the vast amount of geographical, climatic, agricultural, historical, astronomical, and cartographical information given in her work. Authorities in these fields have verified the accuracy of what she has reported with appropriate astonishment. Valtorta accurately identifies this agricultural and climatic information that is often unique to Palestine with the appropriate calendar period which she often specifically identifies. Without any evidence of planning and with hardly any corrections, Valtorta ends up with a perfectly flowing 3½ year story line with Jesus appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Valtorta shows Jesus to have traversed the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists. Not once, however, does she have Jesus (or any one of the other 500 characters) in a place inconsistent with either the story line or distance or timing necessities.

(IV) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:

The work [The Poem of the Man-God] overflows with exact data from the viewpoint of history, topography, architecture, geography, ethnology, chronology, etc. Furthermore, Maria Valtorta often provides precise details known only by some scholars, and in certain cases, she even records details totally unknown at the time she recorded them, and which archeology, history, or science have later confirmed.

See also the chapter "Proofs of the Supernatural Origin of Maria Valtorta's Visions Described in Her Work" in A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.
 
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Magdala

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Part II

Post #1 is not Jesus [...]

The image in post #1 is of Jesus's image imprinted on the Veil of Veronica, now commonly called the Manoppello Veil, superimposed on the other image of Jesus left imprinted on the Shroud of Turin.

Maria Valtorta witnessed Jesus's appearance and mannerisms more than once, at times through visions, or when He would appear to her, and she described Him thus:

"And I got lost contemplating His face (of Jesus) and observing the smallest details. And I repeat them once again. Hair parted in the middle of the head and falling in long locks to the shoulders. Wavy for a good palm, then ending in true curl. Shiny, thin, well combed, a blonde color that especially in the final curl has decided shades of copper. Very high forehead, beautiful, smooth as a band, the slightly sunken temples on which the blue veins bring slight indigo shadows showing through the white skin, of the special white of certain individuals of red-blond hair, a white milk just a shade tending to ivory but with a faintest touch of light blue, delicate skin that seems made of petals of white camellia, so fine that the lighter thin vein shows through and so sensitive that every emotion shows with more intense pallor or redness.

But Jesus I have seen more and more pale, just a little tanned by the sun taken freely in his 3 years of preaching through Palestine. But Mary is white because she was more withdrawn at home, and is a more pinkish white. Jesus is an ivory white with a slight hint of the blue. Nose long and straight, with just a slight curve upward toward the eyes, a beautiful nose thin and well shaped. Eyes received, beautiful, the color that I have so often described as very dark sapphire. Eyebrows and eyelashes thick, but not too long, beautiful, shiny, dark brown but with a tiny spark of gold at the top of each hair. Those of Mary are of a very light brown, thinner and more sparse. Perhaps they appear so because they are more clear, so clear as to be almost blond.

Smooth mouth, tending to small, well-shaped, very similar to that of the Mother, from the lips of the right size, neither too thin to appear like a snake, not too pronounced. At the center are rounded and are accentuated in a beautiful curve, the sides almost disappear, making the mouth appear smaller than it is. The mouth is of a beautiful healthy red that opens onto the teeth which are regular, strong, rather long and very white. Mary’s teeth are small, but also regular and equally spaced.

Cheeks are thin but not skinny. An oval very narrow and long but beautiful, not too high cheekbones nor too elusive. The beard, thick chin and bisected into two curly tips, surrounds, without covering, the mouth up to the lower lip and then goes shorter and shorter to the cheeks where, at the height of the mouth’s corners, it becomes very short, simply putting as a shadow of dusting copper on the pallor of his cheeks. It is, where it is thick, of a dark copper color: blond-red. And so also the mustache, which is not very thick and kept short, so that it barely covers the upper lip between the nose and the lip, and is limited to the corners of the mouth. Small ears well shaped and very united to the head. They do not protrude at all”. (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1944, April 7th, 1944)

__________________________________________

"Jesus is never sullen, not even when He is more disgusted with something that has happened, but is always majestically dignified and communicates such supernatural dignity to the place in which He moves. Jesus is never a jolly fellow or a complainer laughing coarsely or looking hypochondriac, not even in the moments of greatest delight or deepest depression. His smile is inimitable. No painter will ever be able to reproduce it. It is like a light emanating from His heart, a bright light in the hours of greatest joy because a soul has been redeemed or approaches Perfection: I would say a rosy smile, when He approves of the spontaneous deeds of His friends or disciples and enjoys their company; a blue angelical smile, to remain in the field of hues, when He bends over children to listen to them, teach them and then bless them; a smile mitigated by piety when He looks at the miseries of the flesh or the spirit; finally a divine smile, when He speaks of His Father or Mother, or looks at or listens to His Most Pure Mother.

I have never seen Him hypochondriac, not even in the hours of bitter torment. During the torture of being betrayed, during the anguish when He sweated blood, and the spasm of His passion, if melancholy overwhelmed the sweet refulgence of His smile, it was not sufficient to cancel the peace, which is like a diadem shining with heavenly gems on His smooth forehead and enlightening His divine person. Neither have I ever seen Him indulge in immoderate merriment. He is not averse to a hearty laugh, when the case demands it, but He immediately resumes His noble serenity. But when He laughs, He prodigiously looks younger, to the extent of looking like a twenty year old man and the world seems to blossom through His lovely, hearty, loud, melodious laughter. Neither can I say that I have seen Him do things hurriedly. Whether He moves or speaks, He does so calmly, without, however, being sluggish or listless. It is probably because, tall as He is, He can stride, without running, to go a long way and He can likewise reach at distant things without having to stand up to do so. Even the way He moves is certainly gentlemanly and majestic.

And what about His voice? Well: I have heard Him speak for almost two years, and yet at times I lose the thread of His speech as I become so engrossed in studying His voice. And Jesus, very kindly and patiently, repeats what He said and He looks at me with His smile of the good Master to ensure that nothing is missing in His dictation because of my delight in enjoying and listening to His voice and studying its tone and charm. But after two years I am not in a position to say precisely what the tone is. I definitely exclude the bass tone and also the light tenor tone. But I am always doubtful whether it is a powerful tenor voice or a perfect baritone voice with a very wide vocal range. I would say that it is the latter because His voice at times takes bronze-like notes, mellow and so deep, particularly when He speaks to a sinner, to lead him back to Grace or He points out human deviations to crowds. But when He analyses or condemns forbidden things or He shows the hypocrisy of men, the bronze notes of His voices become clearer; and they are as sharp as the peal of thunder when He imposes the Truth or His will and they vibrate like a sheet of gold struck with a crystal hammer when He sings the praises of Mercy or exalts the work of God; but the timbre of His voice is a most loving one when He speaks to or about His Mother. Jesus' voice is then really imbued with love: the reverent love of a son, and the love of God Who praises His most perfect work. And He uses the same tone, although not so strongly, when speaking to His favourites, to converts and to children. And His voice never tires, not even in very long speeches, because it colours and completes His thoughts and words, emphasising their power or kindness, according to the case." (excerpt from The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. II, August 4th, 1945)

__________________________________________

"[...] the Master, Who in general speaks very little, just not to be unkind, making such effort only when it is the case of teaching the crowds, or His apostles, or correcting wrong ideas, or comforting unhappy people. Jesus was the <<Word>>, but He certainly was not a <<chatterbox>>! As patient and kind as nobody else, He never appeared to be bored when He had to repeat a concept once, twice, ten times, a hundred times to make it enter the heads hardened by pharisaical and rabbinical precepts, neglecting His own tiredness, at times so exhausting to be painful, in order to relieve the moral or physical suffering of a person. But it is clear that He prefers to be silent, keeping aloof in quiet meditation which may last for many hours, if He is not distracted by someone questioning Him. He generally walks ahead of His apostles, with His head slightly bent, raising it now and again to look at the sky, the country, people, animals. I said to look. But that is wrong. I must say: to love. Because it's a smile, God's smile that from His eyes pours forth to caress the world and creatures: a love-smile. Because it is love that shines forth, spreads, blesses and purifies the light of His eyes, which are so bright, most bright, when He comes out of intense concentration.

What are His concentrations like? I think—and I am sure that I am not mistaken, because it is enough to watch His countenance to see what they are—I think they are much more than our ecstasies in which a human creature already lives in Heaven. They are the <<sensible reunion of God with God>>”. (excerpt from The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. IV, August 19th, 1946)​
 
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WitnessX

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It’s fake.

Go look at Lazarus as another typology of burial. John 11:44. More over nowhere can anyone point to its existence as a single piece of cloth nor can they even support It’s existence outright, while scriptures prove its fake. Satan would love to be able to deceive with an exact image of Jesus Christ. God made sure he won’t be able to do that, but he will attempt it just as Matthew 24 and other scriptures say he will.

Having Jesus DNA from the shroud and His likeness would fall into the category of deceiving the elect most likely. God won’t allow that to happen. Just as Satan contended for Moses bones, most likely for his DNA, which if you look at today’s technology makes sense why God said no way. We have gene editing and cloning today.



‎²⁹ . . . blessed are they that have , and yet have believed.
‎— John 20:29 KJV

‎There are biblical reasons why the authenticity of the “Shroud of Turin” is questionable, as it does not align with the teachings of the Bible.

‎5 reasons why these claims lack authenticity:

‎. The Bible states that Jesus’ body was wrapped in linen cloths, not a single shroud, which conflicts with the idea of the Shroud of Turin.

‎⁷ And the napkin, that was about His head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
‎— John 20:7 KJV

‎. The Bible describes how Jesus was severely beaten to the point where his appearance was unrecognizable as human. However, the face on the shroud would still be identifiable to those who knew him.

‎¹⁴ As many were astonied at thee; His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men:
‎— Isaiah 52:14 KJV

‎. In Psalm 22, a prophecy is noted regarding Christ, indicating that the Messiah would experience having all of His “bones are out of joint” - However, the image portrayed on the Shroud does not align with the depiction of a man with every bone out of joint.

‎¹⁴ I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
‎— Psalm 22:14 KJV

‎. The account provided by John offers crucial details that were omitted in other accounts of Jesus' burial. The passage describes how Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus prepared Jesus' body by wrapping it in linen cloths with spices, totaling about a hundred pounds. The Shroud shows an image of a naked man, inconsistent with the wrapping and spice-packing described in John's account.

‎³⁹ And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight . ⁴⁰ Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
‎— John 19:39-40 KJV

‎. The biblical account of Jesus mentions his beard being plucked out, which contradicts the appearance of a full beard on the individual depicted on the shroud.

‎⁶ I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that : I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
‎— Isaiah 50:6 KJV

‎Strong's Number
‎H4803
‎Original Word
‎מרט
‎Transliterated Word
‎mâraţ
‎Phonetic Spelling
‎maw-rat'
‎Parts of Speech
‎Verb

‎Strong's Definition
‎A primitive root; to polish; by implication to make bald (the {head}) to gall (the shoulder); {also} to sharpen: - {bright} {furbish} (have his) hair (be) fallen {off} {peeled} pluck off (hair.)

‎Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition
‎1. to bare, polish, make smooth or bald or bare
‎ * (Qal)
‎ 1. to make bare
‎ 2. to scour, polish
‎ * (Niphal) to be made bald

‎Note:
‎The lengthy hair depicted in the shroud appears to defy the laws of gravity. Rather than cascading down the man's back as expected, it remains parallel to his body as if he were in a standing position, creating a perplexing visual anomaly.

‎⁸ It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
‎— Psalm 118:8 KJV
 

WitnessX

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Danger. Its image will most likely be used in the false coming we are warned about.
 

Magdala

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It’s fake.

As Jesus said to Maria Valtorta, the Shroud of Turin is "confirmation for those to whom it is granted to see, in the light of God" (excerpt from The Notebooks: 1945-1950, May 20th, 1949). I pray that you'll become one of those people, just as I pray those who are remain so.

The Bible states that Jesus’ body was wrapped in linen cloths, not a single shroud, which conflicts with the idea of the Shroud of Turin.

In addition to the Holy Shroud, see the Sudarium of Oviedo. Furthermore, there's the computer analysis done in 1976 in the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, U.S.A., which seems to demonstrate that the Man of the Shroud was put a chin-strap. Maria Valtorta, Jesus's spokesman, had already written so in 1944.

The Bible describes how Jesus was severely beaten to the point where his appearance was unrecognizable as human. However, the face on the shroud would still be identifiable to those who knew him.

Source?

In Psalm 22, a prophecy is noted regarding Christ, indicating that the Messiah would experience having all of His “bones are out of joint” - However, the image portrayed on the Shroud does not align with the depiction of a man with every bone out of joint.

Is the Man of the Shroud shown to have been "poured out like water", and have had a "heart like wax that melted", as also written in Ps. 22:14?

The account provided by John offers crucial details that were omitted in other accounts of Jesus' burial. The passage describes how Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus prepared Jesus' body by wrapping it in linen cloths with spices, totaling about a hundred pounds. The Shroud shows an image of a naked man, inconsistent with the wrapping and spice-packing described in John's account.

Source?

The biblical account of Jesus mentions his beard being plucked out, which contradicts the appearance of a full beard on the individual depicted on the shroud.

Source?

‎Note:
‎The lengthy hair depicted in the shroud appears to defy the laws of gravity. Rather than cascading down the man's back as expected, it remains parallel to his body as if he were in a standing position, creating a perplexing visual anomaly.

Source?
 
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Verily

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‎Note:
‎The lengthy hair depicted in the shroud appears to defy the laws of gravity. Rather than cascading down the man's back as expected, it remains parallel to his body as if he were in a standing position, creating a perplexing visual anomaly.
@LuxMundi, asks, "Source?"

Thats your source clfh
 

Verily

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I'm asking for a specific document, person, or website that provides information used to support his claims, since WitnessX failed to do that on their own.

On this part here its common sense, WitnessX observes the obvious in your own source, stating

‎"The lengthy hair"
depicted in the shroud appears to defy the laws of gravity. Rather than cascading down the man's back as expected, it remains parallel to his body as if he were in a standing position, creating a perplexing visual anomaly.

If he was on the moon, the hair should float and defy the laws of gravity but he was not, he was on earth where there is gravity and the hair should fall back.
 

Magdala

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On this part here its common sense [...]

If he's right, then he should be able to provide sources, such as a document, person, or website, that corroborates this and all of his other claims.
 
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Magdala

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You want a website on the laws of gravity?

I want what I asked for, and if WitnessX is right, then he should be able to provide sources, such as a document, person, or website that corroborates his claims, such as that the hair of the Man of the Shroud defies the laws of gravity.
 

Verily

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I want what I asked for, and if WitnessX is right, then he should be able to provide sources, such as a document, person, or website that corroborates his claims, such as that the hair of the Man of the Shroud defies the laws of gravity.

Just google a picture of anyone lying down and see how their hair falls back from away from their face. Then google pictures of people hanging upside down with long hair or people hanging their heads forward with long hair, its not too difficult to see the obvious. If you need an expert for what a 3 year old can observe thats nuts.
 

Magdala

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Just google a picture of anyone lying down and see how their hair falls back from away from their face. Then google pictures of people hanging upside down with long hair or people hanging their heads forward with long hair, its not too difficult to see the obvious. If you need an expert for what a 3 year old can observe thats nuts.

If that's the case, then he should be able to provide sources, such as a document, person, or website that corroborates his claim that the hair of the Man of the Shroud defies the laws of gravity.