The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology

[The Learner]

The Trinity according to Alexander Hislop—In His Own Words

The Trinity according to Alexander Hislop—In His Own Words

Critics of the Trinity are still citing Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons to prove that the doctrine of the Trinity is a pagan doctrine. This article sets the record straight--by simply quoting Hislop's own words.

bib.irr.org

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology - Christian Research Institute

This article first appeared in the volume 22, number 2 (2000) issue of the Christian Research Journal. For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org A review of The Two Babylons, or The Papal Worship by Alexander Hislop (Lorizeaux Brothers...

www.equip.org

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology


However, this book should be approached with caution due to its speculative methodology and lack of scholarly rigor. Hislop draws tenuous connections between ancient Babylonian paganism and Roman Catholic practices, often relying on superficial similarities rather than solid historical evidence. This approach can lead to misconceptions and distract from the clear teachings of Scripture. Seminaries emphasize the importance of sound biblical exegesis and credible historical research, warning that Hislop’s work can lead students astray by promoting unfounded theories rather than truth grounded in the Bible. Additionally, while The Two Babylons addresses the important issue of syncretism, it does so in a way that lacks the necessary scholarly foundation, making it an unreliable resource for serious theological study and discussion.

Identifying the Flawed and Speculative Methodology
Hislop’s The Two Babylons often falls into the trap of speculative minutiae, drawing tenuous connections between Catholic practices and ancient Babylonian paganism. His method involves identifying superficial similarities and then asserting causation without robust evidence. This approach can distract believers from the clear teachings of Scripture and lead them into unnecessary and unfounded controversies, which Scripture warns against (1 Timothy 1:4).

As previously discussed, The Two Babylons is riddled with logical fallacies such as post hoc ergo propter hoc, false cause, and hasty generalization. These fallacies weaken the credibility of Hislop’s arguments and illustrate the dangers of building doctrinal or historical claims on speculative connections rather than sound biblical exegesis and reliable historical evidence.

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc (After This, Therefore Because of This): Hislop often assumes that because two practices or symbols resemble each other, one must have caused the other. He claims that many Catholic traditions originated from Babylonian practices simply due to superficial similarities, without solid historical evidence of direct influence.
False Cause (Correlation vs. Causation): Hislop draws connections between Catholic rituals and pagan practices, suggesting causation where only correlation might exist. He fails to account for other possible explanations for these similarities, such as independent cultural developments.
Hasty Generalization: Hislop frequently makes broad claims about the Catholic Church based on selective or isolated examples. He generalizes from a few supposed parallels, ignoring the complex history and theology behind Catholic traditions.
Confirmation Bias: Hislop selectively interprets evidence that supports his thesis while ignoring or dismissing evidence that contradicts it. This approach skews his conclusions and undermines the credibility of his arguments.
Appeal to Tradition: Hislop appeals to the authority of early Protestant reformers and their criticisms of the Catholic Church without critically examining the validity of these critiques in the light of historical evidence.
These logical fallacies weaken Hislop’s arguments, making The Two Babylons less credible from a rigorous, truth-seeking biblical perspective.

Critical Review of Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons - BibleTruths

Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons concern for doctrinal purity is commendable, but his methodology is flawed and speculative.

www.bibletruths.org

 

[quietthinker]

The Trinity according to Alexander Hislop—In His Own Words

The Trinity according to Alexander Hislop—In His Own Words

Critics of the Trinity are still citing Alexander Hislop's book The Two Babylons to prove that the doctrine of the Trinity is a pagan doctrine. This article sets the record straight--by simply quoting Hislop's own words.

bib.irr.org

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology - Christian Research Institute

This article first appeared in the volume 22, number 2 (2000) issue of the Christian Research Journal. For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org A review of The Two Babylons, or The Papal Worship by Alexander Hislop (Lorizeaux Brothers...

www.equip.org

The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Methodology


However, this book should be approached with caution due to its speculative methodology and lack of scholarly rigor. Hislop draws tenuous connections between ancient Babylonian paganism and Roman Catholic practices, often relying on superficial similarities rather than solid historical evidence. This approach can lead to misconceptions and distract from the clear teachings of Scripture. Seminaries emphasize the importance of sound biblical exegesis and credible historical research, warning that Hislop’s work can lead students astray by promoting unfounded theories rather than truth grounded in the Bible. Additionally, while The Two Babylons addresses the important issue of syncretism, it does so in a way that lacks the necessary scholarly foundation, making it an unreliable resource for serious theological study and discussion.

Identifying the Flawed and Speculative Methodology
Hislop’s The Two Babylons often falls into the trap of speculative minutiae, drawing tenuous connections between Catholic practices and ancient Babylonian paganism. His method involves identifying superficial similarities and then asserting causation without robust evidence. This approach can distract believers from the clear teachings of Scripture and lead them into unnecessary and unfounded controversies, which Scripture warns against (1 Timothy 1:4).

As previously discussed, The Two Babylons is riddled with logical fallacies such as post hoc ergo propter hoc, false cause, and hasty generalization. These fallacies weaken the credibility of Hislop’s arguments and illustrate the dangers of building doctrinal or historical claims on speculative connections rather than sound biblical exegesis and reliable historical evidence.

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc (After This, Therefore Because of This): Hislop often assumes that because two practices or symbols resemble each other, one must have caused the other. He claims that many Catholic traditions originated from Babylonian practices simply due to superficial similarities, without solid historical evidence of direct influence.
False Cause (Correlation vs. Causation): Hislop draws connections between Catholic rituals and pagan practices, suggesting causation where only correlation might exist. He fails to account for other possible explanations for these similarities, such as independent cultural developments.
Hasty Generalization: Hislop frequently makes broad claims about the Catholic Church based on selective or isolated examples. He generalizes from a few supposed parallels, ignoring the complex history and theology behind Catholic traditions.
Confirmation Bias: Hislop selectively interprets evidence that supports his thesis while ignoring or dismissing evidence that contradicts it. This approach skews his conclusions and undermines the credibility of his arguments.
Appeal to Tradition: Hislop appeals to the authority of early Protestant reformers and their criticisms of the Catholic Church without critically examining the validity of these critiques in the light of historical evidence.
These logical fallacies weaken Hislop’s arguments, making The Two Babylons less credible from a rigorous, truth-seeking biblical perspective.

Critical Review of Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons - BibleTruths

Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons concern for doctrinal purity is commendable, but his methodology is flawed and speculative.

www.bibletruths.org

Ahhhhh, how is it that so many feel threatened by Hislop's thesis written all those years ago? (1853)
Truth has a way of pricking the conscience irrespective of how much time goes by since it was stated.

 

[Brakelite]

Even though i have his book stored on my tech somewhere, I haven't read it through, as I got bored with, as you said, all the minutiae. However, there are certain truths in the historical connections linking Babylon, pagan Rome, and papal Rome that magnify the minutiae into credible evidence.
First, there is prophecy. Daniel 2, Daniel 7, and Revelation 13 among others clearly establishes an historical continuum from Babylon to papal Rome, with papal Rome inheriting many principle pagan errors and the mindset of Babylon, to the point that the modern papacy is symbolically or metaphorically called Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots.
As well as this, is the fulfillment of those prophecies in the passing down of authority and priestly rule as the Babylonian priesthood moved from Babylon to Pergamum, and then bequeathed the titles, the honours, and the rituals to the emperors of Rome, who in turn passed them on to the Popes. This continuum does not reflect a random parallel or coincidental likeness, but an actual deliberately handing down of spiritual power and authority, along with the titles and honours that go with those titles. The rituals, the symbols, and the other various accoutrements that accompany the whole process have today been baptized, but they were buried alive, and therefore are still pagan regardless.

 

[The Learner]

Even though i have his book stored on my tech somewhere, I haven't read it through, as I got bored with, as you said, all the minutiae. However, there are certain truths in the historical connections linking Babylon, pagan Rome, and papal Rome that magnify the minutiae into credible evidence.
First, there is prophecy. Daniel 2, Daniel 7, and Revelation 13 among others clearly establishes an historical continuum from Babylon to papal Rome, with papal Rome inheriting many principle pagan errors and the mindset of Babylon, to the point that the modern papacy is symbolically or metaphorically called Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots.
As well as this, is the fulfillment of those prophecies in the passing down of authority and priestly rule as the Babylonian priesthood moved from Babylon to Pergamum, and then bequeathed the titles, the honours, and the rituals to the emperors of Rome, who in turn passed them on to the Popes. This continuum does not reflect a random parallel or coincidental likeness, but an actual deliberately handing down of spiritual power and authority, along with the titles and honours that go with those titles. The rituals, the symbols, and the other various accoutrements that accompany the whole process have today been baptized, but they were buried alive, and therefore are still pagan regardless.

Daniel 2
Easy-to-Read Version
Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
2 During Nebuchadnezzar’s second year as king, he had dreams. They bothered him, and he could not sleep. 2 So the king called his wise men to come to him. They used magic and watched the stars. They did this to try to interpret dreams and to learn what would happen in the future. The king wanted them to tell him what he had dreamed, so they came in and stood in front of him.

3 Then the king said to them, “I had a dream that bothers me. I want to know what it means.”

4 Then the Chaldeans answered the king. They spoke Aramaic[a] and said, “King, live forever! Please tell your dream to us, your servants, and then we will tell you what it means.”

5 Then King Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “No, you must tell me the dream, and then you must tell me what it means. If you don’t, I will give an order for you to be cut into pieces. And I will order your houses to be destroyed until they are nothing but piles of dust and ashes. 6 But if you tell me my dream and explain its meaning, I will give you gifts, rewards, and great honor. So tell me about my dream and what it means.”

7 Again the wise men said to the king, “Please, Sir, tell us about the dream, and we will tell you what it means.”

8 Then King Nebuchadnezzar answered, “I know that you are trying to get more time. You know that I meant what I said. 9 You know that you will be punished if you don’t tell me about my dream. So you have all agreed to lie to me. You are hoping for more time so that I will forget what I want you to do. Now tell me the dream. If you can tell me the dream, I will know that you can tell me what it really means.”

10 The Chaldeans answered the king. They said, “There is not a man on earth who can do what the king is asking! No king has ever asked the wise men, the men who do magic, or the Chaldeans to do something like this. Not even the greatest and most powerful king has ever asked his wise men to do such a thing. 11 The king is asking something that is too hard to do. Only the gods could tell the king his dream and what it means. But the gods don’t live with people.”

12 When the king heard that, he became very angry. So he gave an order for all the wise men of Babylon to be killed. 13 King Nebuchadnezzar’s order to kill all the wise men was announced. The king’s men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to kill them.

14 Arioch was the commander of the king’s guards. He was going to kill the wise men of Babylon, but Daniel talked to him. Daniel spoke politely to Arioch 15 and said, “Why did the king order such a severe punishment?”

Then Arioch explained the whole story about the king’s dreams, and Daniel understood. 16 When Daniel heard the story, he went to King Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel asked the king to give him some more time. Then he would tell the king what the dream meant.

17 So Daniel went to his house. He explained the whole story to his friends Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. 18 Daniel asked his friends to pray to the God of heaven that God would be kind to them and help them understand this secret. Then Daniel and his friends would not be killed with the other wise men of Babylon.

19 During the night, God explained the secret to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven. 20 He said,

“Praise God’s name forever and ever!
Power and wisdom belong to him.
21 He changes the times and seasons.
He gives power to kings,
and he takes their power away.
He gives wisdom to people, so they become wise.
He lets people learn things and become wise.
22 He knows hidden secrets that are hard to understand.
Light lives with him,
so he knows what is in the dark and secret places.
23 God of my ancestors, I thank you and praise you.
You gave me wisdom and power.
You told us what we asked for.
You told us about the king’s dream.”

 

[The Learner]

Daniel Tells What the Dream Means
24 Then Daniel went to Arioch, the man who King Nebuchadnezzar had chosen to kill the wise men of Babylon. Daniel said to Arioch, “Don’t kill the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king. I will tell him what his dream means.”

25 So very quickly, Arioch took Daniel to the king. Arioch said to the king, “I have found a man among the captives from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means.”

26 The king asked Daniel (Belteshazzar) a question. He said, “Are you able to tell me about my dream, and what it means?”

27 Daniel answered, “King Nebuchadnezzar, no wise man, no man who does magic, and no Chaldean could tell the king the secret things he has asked about. 28 But there is a God in heaven who tells secret things. God has given King Nebuchadnezzar dreams to show him what will happen later. This was your dream, and this is what you saw while lying on your bed: 29 King, as you were lying there on your bed, you began thinking about what might happen in the future. God can tell people about secret things—he has shown you what will happen in the future. 30 God also told this secret to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other men, but so that you, king, may know what it means. In that way you will understand what went through your mind.

31 “King, in your dream you saw a large statue in front of you that was very large and shiny. It was very impressive. 32 The head of the statue was made from pure gold. Its chest and the arms were made from silver. The belly and upper part of the legs were made from bronze. 33 The lower part of the legs was made from iron. Its feet were made partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 While you were looking at the statue, you saw a rock that was cut loose, but not by human hands. Then the rock hit the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold broke to pieces all at the same time. And all the pieces became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summertime. The wind blew them away, and there was nothing left. No one could tell that a statue had ever been there. Then the rock that hit the statue became a very large mountain and filled up the whole earth.

36 “That was your dream. Now we will tell the king what it means. 37 King, you are the most important king. The God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory. 38 He has given you control, and you rule over people and the wild animals and the birds. Wherever they live, God has made you ruler over them all. King Nebuchadnezzar, you are that head of gold on the statue.

39 “Another kingdom will come after you, but it will not be as great as your kingdom. Next, a third kingdom will rule over the earth—that is the bronze part. 40 Then there will be a fourth kingdom. That kingdom will be strong like iron. Just as iron breaks things and smashes them to pieces, that fourth kingdom will break all the other kingdoms and smash them to pieces.

41 “You saw that the feet and toes of the statue were partly clay and partly iron. That means the fourth kingdom will be a divided kingdom. It will have some of the strength of iron in it just as you saw the iron mixed with clay. 42 The toes of the statue were partly iron and partly clay. So the fourth kingdom will be partly strong like iron and partly weak like clay. 43 You saw the iron mixed with clay, but iron and clay don’t completely mix together. In the same way the people of the fourth kingdom will be a mixture. They will not be united as one people.

44 “During the time of the kings of the fourth kingdom, the God of heaven will set up another kingdom that will continue forever. It will never be destroyed. And it will be the kind of kingdom that cannot be passed on to another group of people. This kingdom will crush all the other kingdoms. It will bring them to an end, but that kingdom itself will continue forever.

45 “King Nebuchadnezzar, you saw a rock cut from a mountain, but no one cut that rock. The rock broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold to pieces. In this way God showed you what will happen in the future. The dream is true, and you can trust that this is what it means.”

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar bowed down in front of Daniel to honor him. The king praised him. He gave an order that an offering and incense be given to honor Daniel. 47 Then the king said to Daniel, “I know for sure your God is the God over all gods and the Lord over all kings. He tells people about things they cannot know. I know this is true because you were able to tell these secret things to me.”

48 Then the king gave Daniel a very important job in his kingdom and gave him many expensive gifts. Nebuchadnezzar made Daniel ruler over the whole province of Babylon and put him in charge of all the wise men of Babylon. 49 Daniel asked the king to make Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego important officials over the province of Babylon. The king did as Daniel asked. Daniel himself became one of the important officials who was always near the king.

Footnotes
Daniel 2:4 Aramaic The text of Daniel from here to 7:28 is written in Aramaic. See “Aramaic” in the Word List.
Daniel 2:25 captives People taken away as prisoners. Here, it means the Jewish people who were taken to Babylon.

 

[The Learner]

Daniel 7
Easy-to-Read Version
Daniel’s Dream About Four Animals
7 During the first year that Belshazzar[a] was king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream. He saw these visions while he was lying on his bed, and he wrote what he had dreamed. 2 Daniel said, “I saw my vision at night. In the vision the wind was blowing from all four directions. These winds made the sea rough. 3 I saw four big animals and each one was different from the others. These four animals came up out of the sea.

4 “The first animal looked like a lion, but it had wings like an eagle. As I watched, its wings were torn off. It was helped up from the ground, and it stood up on two feet like a human. Then it was given a human mind.

5 “Then I saw another animal there in front of me that looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat all the meat you want!’

6 “After that I noticed another animal in front of me. It looked like a leopard, but it had four wings on its back. This animal had four heads. It was given authority to rule.

7 “After that, in my vision at night, I looked, and there in front of me was a fourth animal. It looked very cruel and terrifying. It looked very strong, with large iron teeth. This animal crushed and ate its victims and walked on whatever was left of them. This fourth animal was different from all the animals I saw before it. This animal had ten horns.

8 “While I was looking at the horns and thinking about them, another horn grew up among them. This was a little horn with eyes like a human. It also had a mouth that was bragging. Then the little horn pulled out three of the other horns.

Judgment of the Fourth Animal
9 “As I was looking, thrones were put in their places,
and the Ancient King sat on his throne.
His clothes were as white as snow.
His hair was as white as wool.
His throne was made from fire,[c]
and its wheels were made from flames.
10 A river of fire flowed out
from in front of the Ancient King.
Millions of people were serving him.
Hundreds of millions of people stood in front of him.
Court was ready to begin,
and the books were opened.

11 “I kept on looking because the little horn was bragging. I kept watching until finally the fourth animal was killed. Its body was destroyed, and it was thrown into the burning fire. 12 The authority and rule of the other animals had been taken from them. But they were permitted to live for a certain period of time.

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there in front of me was someone who looked like a human being.[d] He was coming on the clouds in the sky. He came up to the Ancient King, and the King’s servants brought him before the King.

14 “The one who looked like a human being was given authority, glory, and complete ruling power. People from every nation and language group will serve him. His rule will last forever. His kingdom will continue forever. It will never be destroyed.

The Meaning of Daniel’s Dream
15 “I, Daniel, was confused and worried. The visions that went through my mind bothered me. 16 I went to someone who was standing there and asked him what all this meant. So he explained it to me. 17 He said, ‘The four great animals are four kingdoms that will come from the earth. 18 But God’s holy people will receive the kingdom, and they will have the kingdom forever and ever.’

19 “Then I wanted to know what the fourth animal was and what it meant. The fourth animal was different from all the other animals. It was very terrible and had iron teeth and bronze claws. It was the animal that crushed and ate its victims and walked on whatever was left. 20 I wanted to know about the ten horns that were on the fourth animal’s head and about the little horn that grew there. That little horn pulled out three of the other ten horns. That little horn had eyes and a mouth that kept on bragging, and it looked bigger than the other horns. 21 As I was watching, this little horn began attacking and making war against God’s holy people and killing them. 22 The little horn kept killing God’s holy people until the Ancient King came and judged him. The Ancient King announced his decision about the little horn. This judgment helped God’s holy people, and they received the kingdom.

23 “And he explained this to me: ‘The fourth animal is a fourth kingdom that will come on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms. That fourth kingdom will destroy people all around the world. It will walk on and crush nations all around the world. 24 The ten horns are ten kings that will come from this fourth kingdom. After those ten kings are gone, another king will come. He will be different from the kings who ruled before him. He will defeat three of the other kings. 25 This special king will say things against God Most High, and he will hurt and kill God’s special people. That king will try to change the times and laws that have already been set. God’s holy people will be under that king’s power for three and one-half years.[e]

26 “‘But the court will decide what should happen, and that king’s power will be taken away. His kingdom will end completely. 27 Then God’s holy people will rule over the kingdom and all the people from all the kingdoms of earth.[f] This kingdom will last forever, and people from all the other kingdoms will respect and serve them.’

28 “And that was the end of the dream. I, Daniel, was very afraid. My face became very white from fear, and I did not tell the other people what I saw and heard.”

 

[The Learner]

Revelation 13
Easy-to-Read Version
The Beast From the Sea
13 Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads. There was a crown on each of its horns. It had an evil name written on each head. 2 This beast looked like a leopard, with feet like a bear’s feet. It had a mouth like a lion’s mouth. The dragon gave the beast all of its power and its throne and great authority.

3 One of the heads of the beast looked as if it had been wounded and killed, but the death wound was healed. All the people in the world were amazed, and they all followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because it had given its power to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast. They asked, “Who is as powerful as the beast? Who can make war against it?”

5 The beast was allowed to boast and speak insults against God. It was allowed to use its power for 42 months. 6 The beast opened its mouth to insult God—to insult his name, the place where he lives, and all those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to make war against God’s holy people and to defeat them. It was given power over every tribe, race of people, language, and nation. 8 Everyone living on earth would worship the beast. These are all the people since the beginning of the world whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life. The Lamb is the one who was killed.

9 Anyone who hears these things should listen to this:

10 Whoever is to be a prisoner,
will be a prisoner.
Whoever is to be killed with a sword,
will be killed with a sword.

This means that God’s holy people must have patience and faith.

The Beast From the Earth
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he talked like a dragon. 12 This beast stood before the first beast and used the same power the first beast had. He used this power to make everyone living on the earth worship the first beast. The first beast was the one that had the death wound that was healed. 13 The second beast did great miracles.[a] He even made fire come down from heaven to earth while people were watching.

14 This second beast fooled the people living on earth by using the miracles that he had been given the power to do for the first beast. He ordered people to make an idol to honor the first beast, the one that was wounded by the sword but did not die. 15 The second beast was given power to give life to the idol of the first beast. Then the idol could speak and order all those who did not worship it to be killed. 16 The second beast also forced all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to have a mark put on their right hand or on their forehead. 17 No one could buy or sell without this mark. (This mark is the name of the beast or the number of its name.)

18 Anyone who has understanding can find the meaning of the beast’s number. This requires wisdom. This number is the number of a man. It is 666.

Footnotes
Revelation 13:13 miracles False miracles—amazing acts done by the power of the devil.

 

[The Learner]

I don't see any connection to the catholic church in those texts.

 

[The Learner]

There are several arguments against the Seventh-day Adventist doctrine that the Catholic Church is Babylon, including:
The identity of Babylon
Some say that Babylon is Jerusalem, not Rome, because the Bible refers to "the great city" in multiple places, and it's symbolically named like other Old Testament enemies of the faith. Others say that Rome was referred to as "Babylon" in antiquity, but that the name doesn't historically belong to either Rome or Jerusalem.
The nature of the beast
Some say that the beast in Revelation 17:3-6 represents Rome, so it would be redundant to have the woman also represent Rome.

 

[The Learner]

both sides

Is the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon?

Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. We explain why their arguments don't hold up to scrutiny.

www.catholic.com

Are Adventists Anti-Catholic Bigots? Officially, Yes! – Adventist Today

atoday.org

 

[quietthinker]

Revelation 13
Easy-to-Read Version
The Beast From the Sea
13 Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads. There was a crown on each of its horns. It had an evil name written on each head. 2 This beast looked like a leopard, with feet like a bear’s feet. It had a mouth like a lion’s mouth. The dragon gave the beast all of its power and its throne and great authority.

3 One of the heads of the beast looked as if it had been wounded and killed, but the death wound was healed. All the people in the world were amazed, and they all followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because it had given its power to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast. They asked, “Who is as powerful as the beast? Who can make war against it?”

5 The beast was allowed to boast and speak insults against God. It was allowed to use its power for 42 months. 6 The beast opened its mouth to insult God—to insult his name, the place where he lives, and all those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to make war against God’s holy people and to defeat them. It was given power over every tribe, race of people, language, and nation. 8 Everyone living on earth would worship the beast. These are all the people since the beginning of the world whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life. The Lamb is the one who was killed.

9 Anyone who hears these things should listen to this:

10 Whoever is to be a prisoner,
will be a prisoner.
Whoever is to be killed with a sword,
will be killed with a sword.

This means that God’s holy people must have patience and faith.

The Beast From the Earth
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he talked like a dragon. 12 This beast stood before the first beast and used the same power the first beast had. He used this power to make everyone living on the earth worship the first beast. The first beast was the one that had the death wound that was healed. 13 The second beast did great miracles.[a] He even made fire come down from heaven to earth while people were watching.

14 This second beast fooled the people living on earth by using the miracles that he had been given the power to do for the first beast. He ordered people to make an idol to honor the first beast, the one that was wounded by the sword but did not die. 15 The second beast was given power to give life to the idol of the first beast. Then the idol could speak and order all those who did not worship it to be killed. 16 The second beast also forced all people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to have a mark put on their right hand or on their forehead. 17 No one could buy or sell without this mark. (This mark is the name of the beast or the number of its name.)

18 Anyone who has understanding can find the meaning of the beast’s number. This requires wisdom. This number is the number of a man. It is 666.

Footnotes
Revelation 13:13 miracles False miracles—amazing acts done by the power of the devil.

We do have bibles....and plenty of translations at that!

 

[Brakelite]

Let's start at the beginning, Daniel 2. It is recognized by most able Bible scholars that Daniel 2 forms a skeleton or foundation for the prophecies that come after... Daniel 7,8,11. All those visions/ dreams are expansions of the previous prophecies, adding more detail and identifiers, but all built on Daniel 2. If anyone interprets Daniel 2 wrong, then everything following will travel down the same erroneous road.
So, four metals, which Nebuchadnezzar is told, are nations that run chronologically in order, with his own, Babylon, being the first. Even if that one interpreted dream was all we had to go on, a cursory study of history will tell us who these nations represent. What is interesting is that the 4th kingdom stretches from the time of its inception all the way down to the second coming... but at sometime along the way, there's a change in its make up, it becomes an impossible union between two composites that in fact do not legitimately unite. Nature cannot indulge in such an arrangement, a union between clay and iron, so there must be a political parallel, a union of sorts but that doesn't legitimately work.
So historically we understand the iron to be pagan Rome. Then comes a change. Enter stage left... clay. Using scripture, what could the clay be?

 

[The Learner]

Let's start at the beginning, Daniel 2. It is recognized by most able Bible scholars that Daniel 2 forms a skeleton or foundation for the prophecies that come after... Daniel 7,8,11. All those visions/ dreams are expansions of the previous prophecies, adding more detail and identifiers, but all built on Daniel 2. If anyone interprets Daniel 2 wrong, then everything following will travel down the same erroneous road.
So, four metals, which Nebuchadnezzar is told, are nations that run chronologically in order, with his own, Babylon, being the first. Even if that one interpreted dream was all we had to go on, a cursory study of history will tell us who these nations represent. What is interesting is that the 4th kingdom stretches from the time of its inception all the way down to the second coming... but at sometime along the way, there's a change in its make up, it becomes an impossible union between two composites that in fact do not legitimately unite. Nature cannot indulge in such an arrangement, a union between clay and iron, so there must be a political parallel, a union of sorts but that doesn't legitimately work.
So historically we understand the iron to be pagan Rome. Then comes a change. Enter stage left... clay. Using scripture, what could the clay be?

In Daniel 2,

Generally, biblical commentators agree that the legs, feet and toes represent the Roman Empire.

Nebuchadnezzar's Image (Part Four): Iron and Clay

The fourth empire of Daniel 2 is explained further in Daniel 7 as a terrifying beast. This empire and its horns play a role down to the return of Christ!

www.cgg.org

Makes sense. It is not the Catholic Church.

 

[Brakelite]

In Daniel 2,

Generally, biblical commentators agree that the legs, feet and toes represent the Roman Empire.

Nebuchadnezzar's Image (Part Four): Iron and Clay

The fourth empire of Daniel 2 is explained further in Daniel 7 as a terrifying beast. This empire and its horns play a role down to the return of Christ!

www.cgg.org

Makes sense. It is not the Catholic Church.

But what is the clay?

 

[Brakelite]

In Daniel 2,

Generally, biblical commentators agree that the legs, feet and toes represent the Roman Empire.

Nebuchadnezzar's Image (Part Four): Iron and Clay

The fourth empire of Daniel 2 is explained further in Daniel 7 as a terrifying beast. This empire and its horns play a role down to the return of Christ!

www.cgg.org

Makes sense. It is not the Catholic Church.

I read that link, and agree with a little of what he said, eg. the 3 horns that were uprooted as depicted in Daniel 7, the Heruli, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths. Beyond that, I have a very different view which I can explain more fully if we look at Daniel 7. But first, let's finish Daniel 2.

 

[The Learner]

But what is the clay?

I think the same thing as iron. It was a mix.

 

[Brakelite]

I think the same thing as iron. It was a mix.

The old adage, scripture interprets scripture, can be used to identify the clay specifically. Look up the word clay in scripture, and see what you come up with as metaphor.

 

[MonoBiblical]

We do have bibles....and plenty of translations at that!

7 blind men can examine an elephant and not know what it is.

 

[Brakelite]

7 blind men can examine an elephant and not know what it is.

We aren't blind. And the holy Spirit wants the children of God to understand scripture...including prophecy. The elephant won't talk to anyone.

 

[The Learner]

We aren't blind. And the holy Spirit wants the children of God to understand scripture...including prophecy. The elephant won't talk to anyone.

Where is my coffee?