The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[PinSeeker]

...your doctrine gives them an excuse.

Only in your wrongheaded view, SI.

Why can't you admit that?

Because it's dumb. It would be a dumb thing to say.

...God alone chooses who will be saved or not, so that puts the responsibility in salvation completely in God's hands.

The first cause is God, yes. But man, because of the new spirit God has given him, then chooses correctly. Yes, thank God that God does do that, because otherwise no one would be saved. Who then can be saved? Jesus says, "What is impossible with man is possible with God.” But to turn that into "God forces people to be saved" is just stupid. That's just a dumb thing to say.

What better excuse can these people you're referring to, who fit the description of what Paul described, have except to be able to say that they couldn't help but exchange the truth about God for a lie because God chose not to give them saving faith?

God gave them up to their own selfish passions and desires. He gave them what they wanted, Spiritual Israelite. On the other hand, for many, he gives them a new spirit, an act of grace (unmerited favor), and then, having this new spirit, they freely choose to God's will rather than their former father the devil. Everyone gets what he/she chooses, Spiritual Isrealite. Everyone.

How can you say that God doesn't predestine them to the lake of fire when you say they could only have been saved if He chose them to be saved?

Those whom God predestines, He calls, justifies, and glorifies. There are no others; the rest He gives over to themselves... He lets them have what they want, even enduring them with much patience and even grace, even a great measure of grace... but not the grace of salvation.

It only follows that He chose the rest to not be saved and to spend eternity in the lake of fire instead.

Only to the iron-headed. <smile>

You deny what's right in front of your face.

I don't. Right back atcha.

It explicitly says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe.

It's all one event, really, Spiritual Israelite. Faith ~ God's assurance and conviction by the Spirit, Who convicts ~ comes by hearing, and this is us being born again of the Spirit, given a new spirit by God Himself, and our believe is the result of all that. The sealing with the Spirit is not the result of our belief, it's the other way around. Else, if you were to say that, you would be essentially saying that... GASP... we somehow force God to save us, which is perfectly ridiculous.

You didn't.

I did.

Why don't you tell me where you did?

Because I thought you were actually paying attention the first (and probably more than that) time.

Good luck.

There's no such thing as luck.

You didn't.

I did. And now at least twice.

This doesn't address Acts 13:46 at all, either.

In your opinion. Fair enough.

Verse 46 puts the responsibility of believing or not squarely on man while you think verse 48 puts it squarely on God.

I agree with you about verse 46, I always did. It would be perfectly ridiculous for me to think man's belief does not depend on himself and his own will. But ~ yet again ~ the appointment of God to eternal life is not about man's will or his belief. Man's will and belief is always his own; I've said this at least ten times in the last few posts. What matters at any given time, and what determines what a man chooses to do and believes is the spirit in him, his heart. This is what drives the will. And if God does not give this new spirit, does not create him anew ~ which only God can do ~ then he will always remain at enmity with God, only willing to do the will of his father the devil. Again, Who then can be saved? Jesus says, "What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

You should interpret verse 48 in such a way that doesn't contradict what is indicated in verse 46, but you don't seem to have any interest in that.

And I say you should interpret verse 48 not in the context of verse 46 but its own context, the same as Jesus's in John 15:16, as I cited before: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you." Man is always going to believe what he's going to believe, but if he is appointed to eternal life, then at the point the Spirit gives him new birth, because of this new spirit, he will repent and believe, not because anyone, much less God, "forces him to," but because he then, because of the newness of his heart, does so freely and willingly The Westminster Confession of Faith puts it very succinctly:

"When God converts a sinner and translates Him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good...."​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

What Adam did, Davy, plunged all of creation into this fallen state. We inherit the proclivity to sin, not the particular sin itself.

Straining at a gnat, that's all that is.

It doesn't matter that we did not do the specific sin that Adam and Eve did with disobeying God's commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was still that sin which was imparted to ALL mankind that produced the penalty of flesh death. It thus concluded all under sin, even though we did not do the specific sin of Adam. And Apostle Paul in Galatians 3 even gives us a deeper reason why that was...

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

 

[PinSeeker]

Straining at a gnat, that's all that is.

LOL! Sigh...

It doesn't matter that we did not do the specific sin that Adam and Eve did with disobeying God's commandment to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That's actually what I'm saying. What matters is that we inherit ~ at birth, even conception, as David said of himself ~ not the particular sin, but the spiritual condition of being at enmity with God that Adam took on (and Eve) at the time of the Fall. So no matter how the sin in us manifests itself or when we actually first sin, we are already guilty; it's a heart issue, not a "bad thing" issue.

It was still that sin which was imparted to ALL mankind

Right, the sinful nature. Right. At least on this, we agree. Yes.

that produced the penalty of flesh death. It thus concluded all under sin, even though we did not do the specific sin of Adam. And Apostle Paul in Galatians 3 even gives us a deeper reason why that was...

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
KJV

Absolutely. And... this is not necessarily to you, but "them that believe," not "them because they believe." The belief ~ and the obedience and the good works ~ come because of the new birth in the Spirit and the faith ~ assurance of God, conviction by the Spirit ~ given to... worked in... us. And... the calling and the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah, "kept," SI. I mean, we can say "brought back," but we should understand that in the sense of being kept in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and because of His ongoing work in us.

How is someone kept if they have departed from Him? That makes no sense. Why are you not addressing what I said? You missed that 1 John 2 has a different context than Hebrews 3:12-14 because 1 John 2 is talking about those who were never Christians in the first place leaving and Hebrews 3:12-14 is talking about Christians departing from God. The fact that you didn't even recognize the difference in context in those 2 passages says it all.

And that can be found in all four Gospels, all of John's other letters and Revelation, all of Paul's letters, James, Peter's letters, Hebrews, Jude... I've quoted them all, but I love Romans 8:37-39, Ephesians 1:3-7, and 1 Peter 1:3-5 and will quote both, respectively, again here for... the thousandth... see what I did there? ...time:

• "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Did you already forget what I said about this? That is God's desire, but as I showed you already, God's desires can be thwarted. The same Greek word translated as "will" in that verse (thelēma) is used here:

Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

The servant in the parable did not do his lord's will, which represents someone not doing God's will, and he was punished as a result. It's God's desire that Jesus not lose anyone, but sometimes that happens, as we can see here...

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Anyone with discernment knows that this is talking about Judas Iscariot. He was lost. Jesus called him "a devil" (John 6:70-71), which is not something He would ever call anyone who belongs to Him. Jesus also said that it would've been better if Judas Iscariot had not been born, proving even further that he was lost and not saved.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

What you keep saying, SI, essentially, in all sorts of ways, is that, with regard to God's salvation, God's will depends on our will.

We need to define terms here. His desires depend on our will. Not His will that can't be thwarted. For example, it's His will to send His Son again in the future to take vengeance on His enemies. Nothing is going to stop that from happening. That's not His desire, that's His will that no one can thwart. Whatever you want to call that. But, it's God will/desire that all people repent and are saved, yet not all people do repent and not all are saved. As I showed in the Luke 12 passage earlier, God's servant didn't do God's will (desire) for him, so he was punished for that.

That's not true at all,

It's absolutely true in the sense that I described above. For some reason, you did not differentiate between God's unthwartable will and His desires, so that creates confusion. You need to make that distinction in discussions like this.

but I would also quickly add ~ because you will immediately say this, because you have before, in history does indeed repeat itself ~ our willl doesn't depend on God's will, but rather our will depends on the spirit in us. And if God does not give us this new spirit, even the Holy Spirit, thereby making us a new creation, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, we will never willingly do His will, but that of our father the devil. So, yet again, it has nothing to do with our will but our spirit, which always drives the will.

I wonder if you have any idea of what Jesus meant when He said this...

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

It seems that in your view, unless someone is born of the Spirit, their spirit can't be willing. But, this is Jesus talking to the disciples before they were born of the Spirit and He indicated that the spirit can be willing even without being born of the Spirit. You contradict that with what you're saying. A person does not have to be born of the Spirit for their spirit to be willing to humble themselves and repent of their sins while admitting that they can't save themselves and need the blood of Christ to cover their sins and need Him as their personal Lord and Savior.

Just totally, absolutely graceless.

But saying "Get behind me, Satan" to me was full of grace? Stop the hypocrisy.

You attributed something Luke said to Paul, namely, Acts 13:48 ~ "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Paul did not say that. Luke wrote it. So yeah... hello? Luke documented the Gentiles' actions after they had heard Paul's words/sermon.

Hello again? I was talking about Acts 13:46 where it is Paul and Barnabas talking. I know it is Luke who wrote verse 48 and Paul and Barnabas are not still talking there.

That is one way to read it, but it is the wrong way. Again, a word study of 'appointed' throughout the Bible might be helpful. God is the One Who appoints these things, especially individuals to eternal life, and it depends on nothing but His will.

I know that it means. The point I'm making is that it does not say they were appointed to believe. That is a fact. It says they were appointed to eternal life. And the ones appointed to eternal life believed. You think their appointment to eternal life caused them to believe, but it does not say that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Only in your wrongheaded view, SI.

Your view absolutely does give people an excuse for not believing. You claim that people have faith because God gives it to them and it's entirely up to God as to whether someone has faith or not. If God doesn't give faith to someone and that's the only way someone can have faith, how can you claim that someone can't use the excuse that God didn't give them faith as being the reason they don't have faith? Of course that's an excuse they can use. You just don't want to admit it even though it's so obviously true.

The first cause is God, yes. But man, because of the new spirit God has given him, then chooses correctly. Yes, thank God that God does do that, because otherwise no one would be saved. Who then can be saved? Jesus says, "What is impossible with man is possible with God.” But to turn that into "God forces people to be saved" is just stupid. That's just a dumb thing to say.

What else do you call it when you believe that salvation is entirely up to God? By the way, almost everything you say that involves your opinions in this discussion is stupid and dumb. Just so you know. Including your stupid inability to discern that 1 John 2 has a different context than Hebrews 3:12-14. That was really dumb.

God gave them up to their own selfish passions and desires. He gave them what they wanted, Spiritual Israelite. On the other hand, for many, he gives them a new spirit, an act of grace (unmerited favor), and then, having this new spirit, they freely choose to God's will rather than their former father the devil. Everyone gets what he/she chooses, Spiritual Isrealite. Everyone.

LOL. This is stupid and dumb. You talk about people being given a new spirit and then freely choosing as if they could have chosen to not do God's will at that point. What a disingenuous, stupid and dumb thing to say.

But, yes, everyone gets what he/she chooses, PinSeeker. But, in your view, they get what God chooses for them to choose. Which is just stupid. Not to mention dumb.

Those whom God predestines, He calls, justifies, and glorifies. There are no others; the rest He gives over to themselves... He lets them have what they want, even enduring them with much patience and even grace, even a great measure of grace... but not the grace of salvation.

LOL. That is such a stupid thing to say. He gives them a great measure of grace, but not for salvation?



Yeah, there's so much grace that He gives them by purposely creating them to have no opportunity for salvation and instead are destined to eternity in the lake of fire from birth. Right. So dumb.

I agree with you about verse 46, I always did. It would be perfectly ridiculous for me to think man's belief does not depend on himself and his own will. But ~ yet again ~ the appointment of God to eternal life is not about man's will or his belief.

You're not even thinking here. You're making another stupid comment. It makes no sense for verse 46 to indicate that people judge THEMSELVES unworthy of eternal life, but it's only God who judges people worthy of eternal life? No, that makes no sense whatsoever and is stupid. Instead, if people judge themselves unworthy of eternal life by rejecting the gospel as the Jews in verse 46 did, then it only follows that people judge themselves worthy of eternal life in a sense by accepting the gospel. The responsibility for believing or not is given to man by God.

And I say you should interpret verse 48 not in the context of verse 46 but its own context,

LOL. Of course you would. What a dumb thing to do, to interpret a verse in isolation without looking at the surrounding context.

the same as Jesus's in John 15:16, as I cited before: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

Ah, yes. We should just ignore that John 6:70-71 says that one of those that Jesus chose, Judas Iscariot, was a devil. You somehow think that Judas Iscariot was saved despite being called a devil, despite being said to be lost (John 17:12) and despite Jesus saying it would've been better had he not been born (Matthew 16:24). That's just plain dumb.

 

[Davy]

LOL! Sigh...


That's actually what I'm saying. What matters is that we inherit ~ at birth, even conception, as David said of himself ~ not the particular sin, but the spiritual condition of being at enmity with God that Adam took on (and Eve) at the time of the Fall. So no matter how the sin in us manifests itself or when we actually first sin, we are already guilty; it's a heart issue, not a "bad thing" issue.


Right, the sinful nature. Right. At least on this, we agree. Yes.


Absolutely. And... this is not necessarily to you, but "them that believe," not "them because they believe." The belief ~ and the obedience and the good works ~ come because of the new birth in the Spirit and the faith ~ assurance of God, conviction by the Spirit ~ given to... worked in... us. And... the calling and the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

You still do not know the simplicity of the Scripture that you are speaking of, because those here are not disagreeing with me, they are disagreeing with the Bible Scripture on this topic. Just because God gave the tribe of Judah care of the law, does not mean Judah can try and turn every little Bible topic into a law courtroom argument.

 

[PinSeeker]

You still do not know the simplicity of the Scripture that you are speaking of, because

Well I would say it's not so... well, simplistic. <smile> And it's definitely not backwards, which... how you make it out to be, Davy. Not backwards in the sense of "dumb" or "stupid," but in the sense of inverting the order of some things, especially our obedience and good works in relation to our being born again of the Spirit and acquiring salvific faith. Many kind of... put the cart before the horse, as it were.

...those here are not disagreeing with me, they are disagreeing with the Bible Scripture on this topic.

Well now that may be, but not me... <smile> But if they do, they're presumably not knowingly disagreeing with Scripture on this topic or any other.

Just because God gave the tribe of Judah care of the law, does not mean Judah can try and turn every little Bible topic into a law courtroom argument.

Hmmmm... well, it is what it is. But some people here do seem to love arguing... <smile>

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hmmmm... well, it is what it is. But some people here do seem to love arguing... <smile>

Yeah, some people. You mean you don't repeat the same arguments over and over again (as I do as well) because you love doing that? You do it because you hate it? <smile>

 

[PinSeeker]

How is someone kept if they have departed from Him?

There are a lot of ways Christians can stray or even depart but still be kept by the power of the Spirit. The heart is deceptive above all things, as Jeremiah says. If a person has truly been converted by the Spirit, given new life in Christ, it will never be revoked or rescinded, but we can certainly still waver in our belief, even to great lengths. But still, if we are truly in Christ, we will come to our senses sooner or later.

You missed that 1 John 2 has a different context than Hebrews 3:12-14 because 1 John 2 is talking about those who were never Christians in the first place leaving and Hebrews 3:12-14 is talking about Christians departing from God.

Oh, wait, even though I said that very thing? <chuckles> Seems to me the issue is the sense in which you are understanding Christians departing from God. But I've been very clear about that...

Did you already forget what I said about this? That is God's desire, but as I showed you already, God's desires can be thwarted.

God's purposes cannot be thwarted, SI. They cannot. As I've said many times ~ quoting God Himself, no less ~ (His) Word never returns to (Him) empty; it always accomplishes the purpose for which (He) sent it. This is Isaiah 55:11. In the case of desires, SI, there are some desires that God has ~ and that everyone would come to knowledge of the truth is one of them ~ even though they are His desires, He does not bring them to fruition... and in fact purposes not to... for His own glory. All through the Bible there are things that God chooses to do or to not do even though it might be "nice" or even a good thing. Why does He do or not do these things? Well, somehow, doing what he finally does in any of those situations glorifies Him. This is what He does, He glorifies Himself. Always.

The same Greek word translated as "will" in that verse (thelēma)

Again, many times, God acts against His desires, and his will in the sense of desire, but always because His holiness and justice and glory demand it. On a human level, we often act against our own desires, for a multitude of reasons. We may desire something very intensely, but in our actions and our hearts set aside those desires because to do so would be... compromising, even detrimental to ourselves and/or others in some way.

Jesus also said that it would've been better if Judas Iscariot had not been born, proving even further that he was lost and not saved.

Disagree. God's discipline can be very, very harsh. And we know that God disciplines those whom He loves. I maintain that there is nothing in Scripture to infer that Judas was not elect. And, in fact something very concrete ~ that Jesus chose him... along with His other disciples. Again, we can all be "devils" from time to time. And... God used Judas, among others ~ even Peter, who denied Jesus three times ~ in getting Him to the cross and accomplishing our redemption, the very reason He came.

We need to define terms here.

LOL! Yes, that's what I've been doing... <smile> ...Even clarifying where necessary... <smile>

For some reason, you did not differentiate between God's unthwartable will and His desires, so that creates confusion. You need to make that distinction in discussions like this.

I have done this very thing many times, and even again here in this very post.

I wonder if you have any idea of what Jesus meant when He said this...

Oh yes... <chuckles>

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

It seems that in your view, unless someone is born of the Spirit, their spirit can't be willing.

This is regarding the temptation to sin, SI. Everyone wants to "enter not" into temptation, even unbelievers (though it's not regarding sin, of course; that's foolishness to them) in any context of being tempted to do anything. But in the case of this passage (and numerous others), we're talking about the temptation of believers to sin, which, in this life, because of our proneness to sin, even though we have been born again of the Spirit, we struggle mightily against temptation... and often fail. So no, "in my view"... <chuckles> ...we are willing, because we have been born of the Spirit, to not enter into (avoid), temptation. However, like Paul, we do the very things we know we should not do, and we don't do the very things we know we should do... because we do enter into that temptation, even against our own will, because of our proneness to sin.

But saying "Get behind me, Satan" to me was full of grace? Stop the hypocrisy.

Jesus said "Get behind me Satan" to Peter. Was He a hypocrite? The context of what I said was very much like His.

I was talking about Acts 13:46 where it is Paul and Barnabas talking. I know it is Luke who wrote verse 48 and Paul and Barnabas are not still talking there.

Great! But you did say Paul said what Luke said in verse 48... <chuckles> ...I think, but I don't really care...

The point I'm making is that it does not say they were appointed to believe.

And I didn't say otherwise. Those who were ~ had been ~ appointed to eternal life believed.

You think their appointment to eternal life caused them to believe...

No. They did so freely. Out of their own spirit, the spirit that God had put into them. The heart of flesh that had once been stone.

Your view absolutely does give people an excuse for not believing.

No one has any excuse. Paul says that very thing in Romans 1 and 2, first of unbelievers and then of believers. But the natural human condition, as a result of the Fall, is that each of us is at enmity with God, even having the devil as our father. As Paul says, though, "what can be known about God is plain to (unbelievers), because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

You claim that people have faith because God gives it to them and it's entirely up to God as to whether someone has faith or not.

It's not about faith ~ the assurance (from God) of things hoped for, the conviction (by the Spirit) of things not seen~ faith is the vehicle through which we are saved (and being saved). It's about the heart and its natural deadness in sin, which means they are naturally at enmity with God ~ wholly against Him, even within themselves ~ enslaved to unrighteousness, of the devil and therefore children of their father the devil. And in this way:

• "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:7)
• "...the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing" (1 Corinthians 1:18)

You see that as some kind of excuse, but that's quite silly. Again, they exchange the truth for a lie, which, as I said and you agreed. is an act of volition. They have no one to blame but themselves; there is no excuse.

At any rate, it's about being set free from that state, it's about being taken out of that state and placed in Christ.

...almost everything you say that involves your opinions in this discussion is stupid and dumb.

Hmmm, well, I would call your opinions "stupid" or "dumb," but just... lacking in discernment. But, it's the Spirit Who gives that discernment in these things (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Just so you know. Including your stupid inability to discern that 1 John 2 has a different context than Hebrews 3:12-14.

Wait, despite the fact that that's exactly what I said? LOL!

You talk about people being given a new spirit and then freely choosing as if they could have chosen to not do God's will at that point.

Well they could have, but because of this new spirit they have, they are now of God and wholly inclined to do his will. No longer slaves to unrighteousness but slaves to righteousness. Goodness gracious.

...in your view, they get what God chooses for them to choose.

God's choice frees them from slavery to unrighteousness. And, having such freedom, they act on it freely.

He gives them a great measure of grace, but not for salvation?

Yes. There is what we call common grace, not "common" in the sense that it's "not as good" as to others, but common to all people. And with regard to being saved, there are many who receive this particular grace of God ~ His mercy and compassion, which He only gives to those whom He chooses to do so ~ and many who do not.

It is enough.

Grace and peace to you, SI.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yeah, some people.

Yeah, you being one of them. <smile>

You mean you don't repeat the same arguments over and over again...

I do, because you keep saying the same silly things over and over again. Asking the same questions, raising the same objections, making the same "points"... On and on and on...

(as I do as well) because you love doing that? You do it because you hate it? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are a lot of ways Christians can stray or even depart but still be kept by the power of the Spirit. The heart is deceptive above all things, as Jeremiah says. If a person has truly been converted by the Spirit, given new life in Christ, it will never be revoked or rescinded, but we can certainly still waver in our belief, even to great lengths. But still, if we are truly in Christ, we will come to our senses sooner or later.

What is the point of warning true Christians about departing from God, as it does in Hebrews 3:12-14, if it's a certainty that they will return to Him, anyway. It makes that warning meaningless and something we can just scoff at.

Paul says "See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God"? Pfft. Whatever, Paul. So what if that happens? I'll end up returning to God, anyway, right?

I'm obviously being sarcastic above, but I'm just illustrating how ridiculous I think what you're saying is and how meaningless you make scriptures like Hebrews 3:12-14.

What if someone dies or becomes mentally incapacitated before coming to their senses? Their rebellion and turning away from God doesn't matter?

Why does Hebrews 3:14 say "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end." if we don't have the responsibility to hold our original conviction and instead God does that for us? Why does it say "We have come to share in Christ, IF indeed we hold our original conviction..."? The word "if" there implies that it's not a sure thing that we will hold our original conviction to the end.

Oh, wait, even though I said that very thing? <chuckles> Seems to me the issue is the sense in which you are understanding Christians departing from God. But I've been very clear about that...

You said what? I'm saying that you had said that 1 John 2 has the same context as Hebrews 3:12-14 and it does not because 1 John 2 is in relation to people who were never Christians in the first place leaving while Hebrews 3:12-14 is directed towards Christians and warns them about departing from God.

God's purposes cannot be thwarted, SI. They cannot.

I never said otherwise. I specifically said His desires can be thwarted, which is an obvious fact which you have agreed with before. Did you not actually read what I said?

As I've said many times ~ quoting God Himself, no less ~ (His) Word never returns to (Him) empty; it always accomplishes the purpose for which (He) sent it. This is Isaiah 55:11.

I agree and never said otherwise.

In the case of desires, SI, there are some desires that God has ~ and that everyone would come to knowledge of the truth is one of them ~ even though they are His desires, He does not bring them to fruition... and in fact purposes not to... for His own glory.

LOL. This is absurd. You actually believe that God purposely thwarts His own desires. That is just utter nonsense. Nowhere does scripture teach this. And it's no wonder that you didn't attempt to offer any scripture to back that up.

All through the Bible there are things that God chooses to do or to not do even though it might be "nice" or even a good thing. Why does He do or not do these things? Well, somehow, doing what he finally does in any of those situations glorifies Him. This is what He does, He glorifies Himself. Always.

He glorifies Himself by thwarting His own desires? LOL. Ugh. Total nonsense.

Again, many times, God acts against His desires, and his will in the sense of desire, but always because His holiness and justice and glory demand it.

Stop thinking that you can convince me of anything with our own words. Give me the scripture, man. Where does scripture teach this?

Disagree. God's discipline can be very, very harsh. And we know that God disciplines those whom He loves. I maintain that there is nothing in Scripture to infer that Judas was not elect.

How can you maintain that, knowing that Jesus called Him a devil (John 6:70-71), said He was lost (John 17:12) and said it would've been better if he was never born (Matthew 26:24)? You are so bound to your doctrine, that you throw common sense completely out the window. You think that Jesus would say that it would've been better for an elect person if he was never born, which would mean He was saying it would've been better for Judas to never be born than to be elect and have eternal life? You can't be serious.

And, in fact something very concrete ~ that Jesus chose him... along with His other disciples. Again, we can all be "devils" from time to time. And... God used Judas, among others ~ even Peter, who denied Jesus three times ~ in getting Him to the cross and accomplishing our redemption, the very reason He came.

LOL. You are just absolutely hilarious. Jesus would never call an elect person a devil. That's insane. But, more than that, He would never say that an elect person would've been better to not have been born.

LOL! Yes, that's what I've been doing... <smile> ...Even clarifying where necessary... <smile>

You are clarifying terms? Were you doing that when you said God's purposes can't be thwarted in response to me saying His desires can be thwarted, as if His purposes and His desires are the same thing (they are not)?

I have done this very thing many times, and even again here in this very post.

Yes, like when you acted as if God's purposes and His desires are the same thing....ugh...lol....man, oh man....wow....

This is regarding the temptation to sin, SI. Everyone wants to "enter not" into temptation, even unbelievers (though it's not regarding sin, of course; that's foolishness to them) in any context of being tempted to do anything. But in the case of this passage (and numerous others), we're talking about the temptation of believers to sin, which, in this life, because of our proneness to sin, even though we have been born again of the Spirit, we struggle mightily against temptation... and often fail. So no, "in my view"... <chuckles> ...we are willing, because we have been born of the Spirit, to not enter into (avoid), temptation. However, like Paul, we do the very things we know we should not do, and we don't do the very things we know we should do... because we do enter into that temptation, even against our own will, because of our proneness to sin.

But, somehow, that can't include the sin of rebelling against Christ and losing our faith in Him. Somehow. We have free will, but not to do that. Somehow.

Jesus said "Get behind me Satan" to Peter. Was He a hypocrite? The context of what I said was very much like His.

That was Jesus. You are not Jesus. Don't ever talk to me like that.

Great! But you did say Paul said what Luke said in verse 48... <chuckles> ...I think, but I don't really care...

Yeah you don't care if you accuse me of saying something I didn't actually say. It's not important to make sure you're telling the truth or anything, right.

No one has any excuse. Paul says that very thing in Romans 1 and 2, first of unbelievers and then of believers. But the natural human condition, as a result of the Fall, is that each of us is at enmity with God, even having the devil as our father. As Paul says, though, "what can be known about God is plain to (unbelievers), because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

You say no one has any excuse and then proceed to give people an excuse by saying we are naturally at enmity with God and can't do anything about that unless God gives us faith. On judgment day, if your doctrine was true, those people who are condemned could give an excuse by saying "We are condemned for not believing in You (John 3:18), yet we could not believe in you unless you gave us faith. So, how can we be blamed and punished for not believing when it was up to You and not up to us at all as to whether we believed in You or not?".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not about faith

LOL. Say what now? We are talking about salvation here and you say it's not about faith?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You need faith to be saved and have eternal life, but it's not about faith? Is this an April Fool's joke two days after April Fool's Day?

~ the assurance (from God) of things hoped for, the conviction (by the Spirit) of things not seen~ faith is the vehicle through which we are saved (and being saved).

Then it is about faith (not just faith, but partly, at least) then since you say yourself that "faith is the vehicle throug which we are saved".

It's about the heart and its natural deadness in sin, which means they are naturally at enmity with God ~ wholly against Him, even within themselves ~ enslaved to unrighteousness, of the devil and therefore children of their father the devil. And in this way:

• "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:7)
• "...the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing" (1 Corinthians 1:18)

You see that as some kind of excuse, but that's quite silly.

What do you mean I see that as some kind of excuse? Nowhere does any of that say they had no choice but to be hostile to God or at least to remain hostile to God. Nowhere. It would be an excuse if anyone was naturally hostile to God and had no ability or no chance to ever repent and ask God for forgiveness and mercy. How can you say otherwise? In our view they have no ability to be anything but hostile towards God. How is that their fault? In my view, they have the ability to recognize their sin and repent of it while asking God for mercy like the tax collector in the parable in Luke 18:9-14, and if they don't it's entirely their own fault and they have no excuse for that because they could and should have repented instead. Why else would they be punished? Are people going to be punished for being naturally hostile to God with no ability to be anything but hostile to God? Why would that be the case?

Again, they exchange the truth for a lie, which, as I said and you agreed. is an act of volition.

But, could they have chosen to not exchange the truth for a lie instead on their own volition? I say yes and you say no.

They have no one to blame but themselves; there is no excuse.

Could they have chosen not to change the truth for a lie instead? If not, how do you figure they have no excuse for doing the only thing they can do?

Hmmm, well, I would call your opinions "stupid" or "dumb,"

You did. Do you think I started using those words to describe your opinions for nothing? I figured if you are comfortable using those words to describe my opinion, as you did, then you would have no problem with it if I did the same. I like to try to be all things to all people like Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 9. To those who like using words like "stupid" and "dumb" I use words like "stupid" and "dumb" to relate to them better. LOL.

but just... lacking in discernment. But, it's the Spirit Who gives that discernment in these things (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Yes, so, please ask the Holy Spirit for more discernment because you are very lacking in it when it comes to this particular topic.

Wait, despite the fact that that's exactly what I said? LOL!

LOL! No, you did not! You admitted earlier to not remembering if I said that Paul was speaking in Acts 13:48 or not (I was referrring to Acts 13:46 where he is speaking), so you clearly forget things that are said sometimes. Maybe you did it by accident, but you indicated that we can look at 1 John 2 for further understanding of Hebrews 3:12-14 as if those had the same context.

Well they could have, but because of this new spirit they have, they are now of God and wholly inclined to do his will. No longer slaves to unrighteousness but slaves to righteousness. Goodness gracious.

Goodness gracious good golly sakes. You're taking that "slaves" word a little too literally here. Being a slave to unrighteousness does not make someone incapable of doing what is right in terms of acknowledging to God that they have sinned while asking for forgiveness. The word of God and Holy Spirit can make a slave to unrighteousness aware of their sin at which point they have to decide what to do about it. They can choose to repent or they can choose to be stubborn and resist the Holy Spirit like the Jeiwsh leaders that Stephen ranted against.

Likewise, being a slave to righteousnes does not make someone always do what is right, as you have already acknowledged yourself. You contradictt yourself sometimes. Here, you say that believers are "wholly inclined to do his will" while before you said that a believer can stray far from God at times before coming to his or her senses. So, which is it? Are believers wholly inclined to do his will, implying that they always do His will, or not? Is there no responsibilty for each person to decide each day to take up his or her cross to follow Christ? Clearly, we have responsibility in this, or else scripture would never tell us to be careful not to grieve or quench the Holy Spirit. But, it does. and it warns us about being careful not to lose faith and depart from God. But, we can just ignore that, right, since we're slaves to righteousness and are guaranteed to never fully depart from God? Hmmm.

God's choice frees them from slavery to unrighteousness. And, having such freedom, they act on it freely.

You must have strange definitions for words like "freedom" and "freely" since you do not believe that a believer is free to leave God and renounce his or her faith if he or she wanted to.

Yes. There is what we call common grace, not "common" in the sense that it's "not as good" as to others, but common to all people.

What you call common grace, but scripture does not. What is this "common grace" exactly and where is it taught in scripture? Is it common grace for God to create the non-elect with no opportunity to be saved and instead be condemned to an eternal destiny in the the lake of fire from birth?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, you being one of them. <smile>

Yes, for sure. Why deny it?

I do, because you keep saying the same silly things over and over again. Asking the same questions, raising the same objections, making the same "points"... On and on and on...

That's funny. That's why I do it. Because of your silly things that you say over and over again. Asking the same questions, raising the same objections, making the same "points"...on and on and on.....and on....and on..........and on..............


and on....




and on....

 

[Davy]

Well I would say it's not so... well, simplistic. <smile> And it's definitely not backwards, which... how you make it out to be, Davy. Not backwards in the sense of "dumb" or "stupid," but in the sense of inverting the order of some things, especially our obedience and good works in relation to our being born again of the Spirit and acquiring salvific faith. Many kind of... put the cart before the horse, as it were.

That doesn't make sense. That's trying to 'create' a non-existent argument, not settle one. And that's the idea Jesus said about the blind Pharisees, that they 'strain at a gnat'. Do you know what a gnat is?

So likewise are many of your arguments; they're only straining at a gnat, often missing the main Message in The Bible Scriptures. Ever heard of, 'can't see the forest for the trees'?

 

[PinSeeker]

...straining at a gnat, often missing the main Message in The Bible Scriptures.... Ever heard of, 'can't see the forest for the trees'?

Plenty of that to go around, here... <chuckles>

If one is to say our God's salvation and forgiveness are contingent on, that it depends on our willing and working ~ which includes our believing, repenting, obeying, and serving ~ then that is exactly opposite the Gospel (what Jesus says to His disciples in John 15:16 and what Paul writes in Romans 9:14-18, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-10, and Philippians 2:13 come quickly to mind), along with making God's love out to be far, far smaller than it is, making His grace out to be something other than grace, and even making us out to be more powerful than God. Perish those thoughts altogether.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

If one is to say our God's salvation and forgiveness are contingent on, that it depends on our willing and working ~ which includes our believing, repenting, obeying, and serving ~ then that is exactly opposite the Gospel (what Jesus says to His disciples in John 15:16 and what Paul writes in Romans 9:14-18, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-10, and Philippians 2:13 come quickly to mind), along with making God's love out to be far, far smaller than it is, making His grace out to be something other than grace, and even making us out to be more powerful than God. Perish those thoughts altogether.

That above is a very... un-Biblical view.

And this Thread I started is about the falseness of the Amill theory, not that subject above you're trying to bring up.

But just so you know and remember, Jesus showed the difference with Matthew 22:14, which is about 2 different groups of believers. Those 'chosen', like Apostle Paul, and Christ's Apostles, Jesus showed in His prayer of John 17 that He already 'owned' His chosen sent ones. All other believers that are not chosen are 'called' only, and can still fall away if they choose. But Christ's very elect chosen ones cannot ever... fall away, which is why Paul's admonitions about them is especially in the sense of 'ownership' already.

Apostle Paul is one of the strongest examples of a chosen sent one, because he was a member of the Pharisees and was on his way to Damascus to hunt down Christians, and bring them to Jerusalem for trial. And Lord Jesus Divinely intervened in Paul's life on the way to Damascus, and removed any doubt about Who Jesus is. And when Jesus visited Ananias to tell him to lay hands on Paul, because Christ had blinded him, Ananias doubted about Paul because of Paul's persecutions against Christians. Thus Paul's 'direct'... conversion by Lord Jesus Christ reveals He already 'owned' Paul and even said Paul was His "chosen vessel".

Who all here on this Forum can claim a conversion of believing on Jesus Christ like Apostle Paul's divine conversion by Christ directly? None I can easily say.

So it's best to not pump oneself up beyond what God has already ordained and given His Son like Jesus showed in John 17, because the very elect Jesus said originally belonged to The Father, and He gave them to Lord Jesus. And Jesus then prayed not only for those given Him, but also for all those who would believe on Him by the word (preaching) of His chosen Apostles...


These Jesus is speaking of are His Apostles that were chosen and sent:

John 17:6-12
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV


But this second group Jesus also prays for that would believe by His Apostle's word, these represent those 'called' only...

John 17:20-21
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
KJV

Otherwise, why would Apostle Paul especially, spend so much time in his Epistles admonishing believers to stay faithful in Christ and not fall away? Paul even showed that he knew there would be groups of believers that will fall away and become apostates from Christ. How could those who fall away ever be called a 'chosen' sent one apostle?

If you had continued reading from John 16 into John 17, you might have begun to understand this. But instead you just jumped... off of men's false traditions springboards, assuming... they were correct, when God's written Word reveals something else. Such are the failed notions of Calvinism which believes each soul's fate has already been decided.

 

[PinSeeker]

That above is a very... un-Biblical view.

To you, I guess, so sure, I get that. <smile> Fair enough.

2 different groups of believers...

There are not "two different groups of believers," Davy. Unless of course we say there are those who are believers now and those who will believe in the future. Paul and the other apostles served a very important purpose in starting the spread of the Gospel, and we are to continue that work of going and making disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that Jesus has commanded us. We are not apostles, of course, but in that sense we are all the same.

...other believers that are not chosen are 'called' only, and can still fall away if they choose.

Right, with regard to the general call of the Gospel, which goes out to all to repent and believe in Christ. But the gifts and the calling of God ~ which is inward by the Spirit upon the heart ~ are irrevocable.

...chosen sent one...

As Christians, Davy, we are all chosen and sent. We serve a very important purpose in God's bring His Israel to completion; this is what we are all commissioned to do and our joy in doing, for the glory of God.

Who all here on this Forum can claim a conversion of believing on Jesus Christ like Apostle Paul's divine conversion by Christ directly?

Everyone is converted in a special way, for sure. And it's very divine and very special for each of us. The experience of new birth by the Spirit is different for all of us, maybe dramatic and maybe not so much, but effective and effected in the same way... by the Spirit through faith, each at our own appointed time.

So it's best to not pump oneself up...

Agreed.

Such are the failed notions of Calvinism which believes each soul's fate has already been decided.

Calvinism-Schmalvinism; labels are labels, but what's true is true:

• "for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory" (Ephesians 1:3-14)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

To you, I guess, so sure, I get that. <smile> Fair enough.

Based on some of the ideas you post, you must get that a lot.

There are not "two different groups of believers," Davy.

That's just wishful thinking, again what the idea of affirmation is, a mere proclamation of something as IF... it were fact, when it is actually not proven. Your false affirmation argues against Lord Jesus...

Matt 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
KJV

Matt 20:16
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

If you want to argue against what Jesus said, be my guest, but I won't listen to you about that. I instead believe what Lord Jesus said above, and also in His prayer of John 17.

Many brethren believers simply do not... have spiritual eyes to see, and ears to hear. The reason why Lord Jesus used that very idea is because during this present world, not everyone is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, like He said to His 'chosen'... Apostles...

Matt 13:10-17
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"

11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, 'By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
KJV

So all these times when Jesus pointed to the 7 Churches, specifically with that idea of those with ears to hear, those verses meant no difference between 'how' believers hear and understand?


Jesus speaking...

Rev 2:7
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
KJV

Rev 2:17
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
KJV

Rev 2:29
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV

Rev 3:6
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV

Rev 3:13
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV

Rev 3:22
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV

 

[PinSeeker]

Based on some of the ideas you post, you must get that a lot.

No, but back atcha, and that I know is true, because I see it a lot. :) A lot of posters on here recognize your "ideas" for what they are...

Your false affirmation argues against Lord Jesus...

Nope.

Wait... is that some kind of double negative....? Wait... 'false'... one... 'argues'... two... 'against'... three... So a triple negative? or maybe it is just double because 'affirmation' is a positive... Okay so in the end what does that even mean? <smile>

Matt 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
KJV

Matt 20:16
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
KJV

Thank you for posting. All are called, regarding the general call of the Gospel to all mankind ~ so all people ~ to repent and believe. But few are chosen ~ and thus Christians who believe in Jesus, so fewer than all people, of course ~ in the exact sense in which Jesus is speaking in John 15:16, where He says to His disciples (and you and me, by extension, as we are followers of Jesus), "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide...", So, obviously, those who are not His followers ~ which is indeed many, far more than those who are ~ are not chosen in this way, and thus do not believe in Christ.

"Two kinds of believers"... that doesn't even make sense. Either one is a believer or he/she is not.

Thank you for bringing that up, Davy. Either one is a believer... and thus imputed the righteousness of Christ, and therefore in Christ... or not. Like Jacob versus Esau...

Grace and peace to you.