The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[PinSeeker]

Just a brief comment on this:

I didn't say He was making new things.

You did, regarding the planet, no less. You said you believed it would be "burned up and renewed." Now, if you meant that in a different sense from what you apparently do, then I would agree. But... well, okay:

Of the final Judgment, you said ~ and I don't remember your exact words... or who you said it to first, me or David ~ that it would not take place on this planet (or in heaven, I think). That belief in itself is... I mean, wow; in all my years I'm not sure I've ever heard anybody postulate that, especially any "amill."

But okay. What I understand you to have said... <deeeeeeep breath> ...and I'm perfectly fine with you correcting me if I am wrong in understanding your position... is that this planet will be literally burned up with literal fire and a new planet earth be created in its place (or at least a new surface ~ crust, in geological terms? ~ of this planet made, I guess) while the final Judgment takes place... somewhere else... while this creating of a new planet earth... or at least some kind of cataclysmic transformation of this planet takes place... Honestly, I don't see how you can hold to this (if you do) because... I think, but maybe you actually do... I think you don't believe in any kind of "rapture," but wouldn't believers have to somehow be removed from this planet for that to happen?

Anyway, that's what I... think I understand your position to be, and if so, it's far too woodenly literal and, yes, dispensationalist-ish, even pre-tribulation-dispensationalist-ish, even though I know you don't classify yourself as any of that. I have never said you actually were that, and... don't plan to. <smile>

What do you think the word renew means? It means existing things will be made new...

Well, I agree on the "made new" thing, of course, in principle, but... this is what I'm saying, Spiritual Israelite, is that you seem to be ~ maybe not, but seem to be ~ oh, converting, or inverting (or something like that) "made new" into "newly made," and as such meaning that the old will be literally and completely destroyed and something brand new ~ even a new earth ~ literally created in its place. Now hat you said about the earth would not be incorrect if ~ if ~ that was meant in the same sense as what Paul says about us Christians in 2 Corinthians 5:17, that we, even now, "if (we are) in Christ, (we are) is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." Well, we're still here, of course, and have been sense we were physically born ~ we weren't literally burned up; we still exist in the same physical state as we did before we were born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ... became Christians. Right? And if we dig into that a little deeper... you know this, I know... we both have been and are being made new at the same time... the latter will be complete either when we die and go home to be with Jesus or (if we are still alive when Jesus returns) when Jesus returns. It is in that sense that we should understand the renewing of the earth... purification, without sin, even glorified. All of creation will be such, too; it will be made new, but still in the physical state that it had been since God's original creative act of Genesis 1. No?

And yes, the final Judgment will take place after Jesus returns and defeats Satan and sends away unbelievers because Him never having known them... really known them, which is synonymous with His salvifically loved them, not just merely known who they are.

I'm really, really hoping that we're good on this and that we can stop here... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, he was clearly talking directly to and about you, buddy. As evidenced by the fact that he quoted you. But, I wouldn't expect you to understand something that simple.

Well, that makes me wonder a bit why he's liking my posts and posting in response to me, "I agree." LOL! No, he responded to me, saying, "When people bring this nonsense to the table you normally know they've lost the debate." He's clearly talking about you; you may want to retract your 'like'... <smile> But... I'm not surprised that you... interpreted... what he said in reverse, because that seems to be a recurring pattern. LOL!!! Covenantee got it, and he liked it too.

On a serious note, though, I never view any of these conversations, or exchanges, or whatever, in terms of winning and losing.

Grace and peace to you. Buddy. LOL!!!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

A new Planet earth ? come on now ! seriously, that's stupid !

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just a brief comment on this:

You did, regarding the planet, no less. You said you believed it would be "burned up and renewed." Now, if you meant that in a different sense from what you apparently do, then I would agree. But... well, okay:

You're wrong yet again. I did not say that. I think I know what I believe better than you do, so just let me tell you what I believe. It will be this planet made new. It won't be an entirely new planet. Understand? I never said otherwise. I feel certain that you thinking so is not because of anything I said, but because you don't pay close enough attention to what I'm saying.

Scripture teaches that our bodies will one day be changed and made immortal, right? It's not that we will have entirely new bodies, but rather that our current bodies will be changed. Are you aware that scripture also teaches that the heavens and the earth will be changed?

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

This says heaven and earth "shall perish", which contradicts your beliefs, but lines up well with what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10-12. They will "pass away" (Revelation 21:1) and "shall be changed" (see Heb 1:12 above). That is similar to how our bodies die and in the future will be changed to be immortal. The earth will be changed and made new. Being made new means they may have some differences to what they are now. Therefore, that allows for there to literally no longer be any sea, you see.

Of the final Judgment, you said ~ and I don't remember your exact words... or who you said it to first, me or David ~ that it would not take place on this planet (or in heaven, I think). That belief in itself is... I mean, wow; in all my years I'm not sure I've ever heard anybody postulate that, especially any "amill."

I couldn't care less if you've ever heard that before. That means nothing.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

What else does it mean in Revelation 20:11 when it talks about Jesus being on His throne and heaven and earth fleeing from His presence and there being no place for them except that the judgment is not taking place in heaven or on earth? As I said, it could take place on the new earth, but not this earth as we know it. That's why I believe it takes place in the realm of eternity because it happens heaven and earth, as they are now, have passed away.

But okay. What I understand you to have said... <deeeeeeep breath> ...and I'm perfectly fine with you correcting me if I am wrong in understanding your position... is that this planet will be literally burned up with literal fire and a new planet earth be created in its place (or at least a new surface ~ crust, in geological terms? ~ of this planet made, I guess) while the final Judgment takes place... somewhere else... while this creating of a new planet earth... or at least some kind of cataclysmic transformation of this planet takes place...

You got it. That's exactly what I believe. It's almost shocking that you got that right. Maybe you're paying closer attention than I thought.

Honestly, I don't see how you can hold to this (if you do) because... I think, but maybe you actually do... I think you don't believe in any kind of "rapture," but wouldn't believers have to somehow be removed from this planet for that to happen?

I do believe in the rapture as most Christians understand that term, which is that we (the church) will be bodily lifted up off the earth (caught up) to meet Jesus "in the air", as Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. I have no idea why you think I wouldn't believe in that. As you do sometimes, you claimed something without offering any explanation for why you are making that claim.

Yes, believers would have to be removed from this planet for that to happen. And we will be. We first will be gathered to Christ in the air and then He will proceed to send fire down on to the earth, killing all of His enemies in the process. As Paul wrote, "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8).

Anyway, that's what I... think I understand your position to be, and if so, it's far too woodenly literal and, yes, dispensationalist-ish, even pre-tribulation-dispensationalist-ish, even though I know you don't classify yourself as any of that.

That's total nonsense that barely deserves a response. You once again say something like this without any clear explanation as to why. My belief is not dispensationalist-ish at all no matter what you say.

I have never said you actually were that, and... don't plan to. <smile>

No, I fully understand that you never said that and never said that you did. I am quite obviously not a pre-trib dispensationalist and I never said that you said that I was. Honestly, if you did, I would call you an idiot because of how obvoius it is that I'm not. So, I don't know why you think you have to explain to me that you didn't say I was a dispensationalist. Anyway, to even say that anything I believe is dispensationalist-ish is ridiculous and false.

Well, I agree on the "made new" thing, of course, in principle, but... this is what I'm saying, Spiritual Israelite, is that you seem to be ~ maybe not, but seem to be ~ oh, converting, or inverting (or something like that) "made new" into "newly made,"

I'm not. So, it's just sad to see you waste your time making straw man arguments like this. Time that you can't get back.

and as such meaning that the old will be literally and completely destroyed and something brand new ~ even a new earth ~ literally created in its place.

Nope. I have even explicitly told you that I don't believe the earth will be completely annihilated, yet you still say this to me. So, you clearly don't pay close attention to everything I say. Again, as I showed earlier by referencing Hebrews 1:10-12, the earth will perish in a sense (Rev 21:1 says it will pass away), but not in the sense of being "literally and completely destroyed" as you falsely think I believe despite my saying otherwise, but rather in the sense of being changed and made new.

Now hat you said about the earth would not be incorrect if ~ if ~ that was meant in the same sense as what Paul says about us Christians in 2 Corinthians 5:17, that we, even now, "if (we are) in Christ, (we are) is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." Well, we're still here, of course, and have been sense we were physically born ~ we weren't literally burned up; we still exist in the same physical state as we did before we were born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ... became Christians. Right?

I think it makes more sense to compare it to the changing of our bodies and not to 2 Corinthians 5:17 because it's talking about something physical being changed, not a spiritual change.

And if we dig into that a little deeper... you know this, I know... we both have been and are being made new at the same time... the latter will be complete either when we die and go home to be with Jesus or (if we are still alive when Jesus returns) when Jesus returns. It is in that sense that we should understand the renewing of the earth... purification, without sin, even glorified. All of creation will be such, too; it will be made new, but still in the physical state that it had been since God's original creative act of Genesis 1. No?

Yes. I never said otherwise. We just disagree on how that will occur. And I disagree that literally all things will be made new as you believe. Some things will no longer exist rather than being made new, in my opinion. Like the sun, the moon and the sea. There will be no more need for them in the eternal new heavens and new earth. The earth as a whole will be changed from what it was and made new and part of what will be changed about the earth is that it will no longer revolve around the sun or have any sea.

And yes, the final Judgment will take place after Jesus returns and defeats Satan and sends away unbelievers because Him never having known them... really known them, which is synonymous with His salvifically loved them, not just merely known who they are.

I'm really, really hoping that we're good on this and that we can stop here... <smile>

You can stop any time you want, just like you have told me. Doesn't matter to me. If you no longer have anything to say that I'm interested in replying to, that's fine with me. I don't have anything to add to what I've already said at this point. You can respond to what I've said here or not. I don't care. But, I hope you understand that you've misunderstood my view to some extent and hope that it's more clear to you now after this post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, that makes me wonder a bit why he's liking my posts and posting in response to me, "I agree." LOL!

In response to what exactly? He's not agreeing with you and disagreeing with me in our particular discussion, that's for sure. If you think so, then your reading comprehension problem is worse than I thought.

No, he responded to me, saying, "When people bring this nonsense to the table you normally know they've lost the debate." He's clearly talking about you; you may want to retract your 'like'... <smile>

LOL. He and I have been friends on these forums for a long time, so he would not talk about me like that. You are clueless. He was most definitely talking about your nonsense with the repeated animated gifs in response to every comment I made in that post. It's one thing to respond that way here and there, which is fine and lightens the mood, but to respond that way to 10 comments in a row? That's nonsense. That's what he's saying. I'm sure of it.

But... I'm not surprised that you... interpreted... what he said in reverse, because that seems to be a recurring pattern. LOL!!!

I know what he believes, so I know that He agrees with me on this subject and not you. You are so delusional. It's incredible. Go ahead and ask him yourself. I can feel your embarrassment already from here when you find out how wrong you are here.

Covenantee got it, and he liked it too.

He got what exactly?

On a serious note, though, I never view any of these conversations, or exchanges, or whatever, in terms of winning and losing.

Neither do I. What matters to me is the truth, not winning.

Grace and peace to you. Buddy. LOL!!!

Grace and peace to you also, pal. LOL!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A new Planet earth ? come on now ! seriously, that's stupid !

@PinSeeker Look what you've done here. You misrepresent my view and now this guy thinks that's what I actually believe even though it's not. This earth will be renewed as I told you how many times? How do you turn my saying that this earth will be renewed into my saying there will be a new planet earth, as in an entirely new earth apart from this one? No, I believe this earth will be renewed (changed) and not there will be an entirely separate ,new planet earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

His opinion is thee authority - apparently. He has zero arguments. That is why, when you question him he reacts (mocks). He has nothing of evidential worth to bring to the table!

@PinSeeker Do you think WPM was talking about me instead of you here, too? LOL.

 

[WPM]

LOL! I'm pretty sure he's talking about you, @Spiritual Israelite .

Hoo boy.

Grace and peace to all.

No, you!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, you!

LOL. How could he not discern that you were talking about him? Incredible. He interprets what people say about as well as he interprets scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, you!

Okay, well it was unclear. Well in my case, I was tired of trying to reason with him, because he had long since ceased to be conversational, and I was having to repeat myself over and over and over, because of the same objections time and time again, so, I was trying to drive him away, which at some point becomes necessary when dealing with a total...

LOL!

Grace and peace to you, WPM.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, well it was unclear.

LOL. No, it wasn't.

Well in my case, I was tired of trying to reason with him, because he had long since ceased to be conversational, and I was having to repeat myself over and over and over, because of the same objections time and time again, so, I was trying to drive him away, which at some point becomes necessary when dealing with a total...

As if I didn't need to repeat myself to you. Despite my telling you I don't know how many times that I don't believe the earth will be annihilated and will instead be renewed, you still though I believe it will be annihilated and replaced by an entirely different planet. Face it, you just have terrible reading comprehension skills. I hope you are thoroughly embarrassed for foolishly thinking he was talking about me instead of you. Your reading comprehension skills match your Bible interpretation skills when it comes to this topic.

 

[PinSeeker]

How could he not discern that you were talking about him? Incredible.

A post like that can easily be read either way. I thought he was implying that you were posting nonsense. Which you were. Over and over and over and over and over...

<smile> You keep walking into these things... <smile>

I think WPM is kind of a Johnny-Come-Lately to this particular conversation; I don't expect him to have been following along, so in that case he wouldn't know what had gone on before unless he had read through the thread, which I doubt he did Like I said, he is liking and agreeing with my posts here, so in this case, he was referring to the one post that I responded to most all your... ramblings... with the chuckling GIFs, and yeah, that is kind of nonsense, but in this case it had a specific intention ~ to drive you away. At any rate, me "losing this debate?" That's one of the most laughable things I ever heard. But you're welcome to think that if you like...

Grace and peace to you, SI.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL! I'm pretty sure he's talking about you, @Spiritual Israelite .

Hoo boy.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A post like that can easily be read either way.

Nope. You just have poor reading comprehension skills.

I thought he was implying that you were posting nonsense.

You thought that despite quoting your nonsense. That...is nonsense. LOL. Keep the laughs coming.

Which you were. Over and over and over and over and over...

Look in the mirror.

<smile> You keep walking into these things... <smile>

You have no room to try to make fun of me at this point. Are you kidding me? Which one of us made a fool of himself by insisting that WPM was talking about me? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't me. Let's see if you're able to use your amazing deductive skills to figure this out.

I think WPM is kind of a Johnny-Come-Lately to this particular conversation; I don't expect him to have been following along, so in that case he wouldn't know what had gone on before unless he had read through the thread, which I doubt he did

He read enough to know that you talk a lot of nonsense. I know that he sees things the way I do as it relates to this topic.

Like I said, he is liking and agreeing with my posts here, so in this case, he was referring to the one post that I responded to most all your... ramblings... with the chuckling GIFs, and yeah, that is kind of nonsense, but in this case it had a specific intention ~ to drive you away. At any rate, me "losing this debate?" That's one of the most laughable things I ever heard. But you're welcome to think that if you like...

Where did I say anything about anyone winning or losing this debate? You even put "losing this debate" in quotes as if I said that. I didn't. You have a lot of trouble with reading comprehension.

 

[WPM]

Okay, well it was unclear. Well in my case, I was tired of trying to reason with him, because he had long since ceased to be conversational, and I was having to repeat myself over and over and over, because of the same objections time and time again, so, I was trying to drive him away, which at some point becomes necessary when dealing with a total...

LOL!

Grace and peace to you, WPM.

It seems like when you have no answers to other arguments you resort to taunting and mocking. It does not advance your argument. It undermines it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Nope. You just have poor reading comprehension skills.

Oh, yes it can, SI. Yes it can. He didn't specify who he thought responsible for the "nonsense," so without that little tidbit of info, the receiver of the message could easily take what he said either way.

You thought that despite quoting your nonsense.

He quoted my GIFs, which, yes, in a sense was nonsense... but in another not so much; like I said, I had a specific purpose in mind when I did that (to drive you away). It surely was not because I thought I had "lost the debate."

Look in the mirror.

That's exactly what I'm saying; we were both repeating ourselves over and over.

You have no room to try to make fun of me at this point.

I'm not. Well, except for ...

I stand by that. <smile>

Are you kidding me? Which one of us made a fool of himself by insisting that WPM was talking about me? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't me. Let's see if you're able to use your amazing deductive skills to figure this out.


He read enough to know that you talk a lot of nonsense.

Ah, well maybe that makes him a ...

...too. LOL!

I know that he sees things the way I do as it relates to this topic.

Uh-oh. Well, again, he liked a couple of my posts and agreed with me in at least one of his here, so... Whatever; so be it.

Where did I say anything about anyone winning or losing this debate? You even put "losing this debate" in quotes as if I said that. I didn't.

WPM did, SI, not you. Not everything is about you, you... well, you know what one who thinks that is...

You have a lot of trouble with reading comprehension.

<eye roll> I get that it makes you feel good to insult my intelligence, but I kind of take that as a compliment coming from you, really, at least concerning the things we've been talking about, Pal.

Grace and peace to you

 

[PinSeeker]

It seems like when you have no answers to other arguments you resort to taunting and mocking. It does not advance your argument. It undermines it.

No, I have plenty of answers, and have been very patient in explaining them. I've left nothing unanswered and am happy to continue with anyone if they are willing to keep it congenial, civil, and, well, not taunting or mocking. As for mine, again, the taunting/mocking was for a specific purpose... we had gotten to the point where we were both repeating ourselves over and over again, and he was taunting and mocking me. So, you know, you seem to think it was one-sided, WPM, and it most certainly was not. You will agree, I'm sure, that it takes two to tango.

As for the undermining, yeah, you're probably right; in that sense we were both undermining our own argument in a sense. Sure.

What's incredible to me is we're all supposed to be Christians, and things devolve into something like this. It should not be.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh, yes it can, SI. Yes it can. He didn't specify who he thought responsible for the "nonsense," so without that little tidbit of info, the receiver of the message could easily take what he said either way.

LOL. You just keep believing that then if you want. No one can stop you.

He quoted my GIFs, which, yes, in a sense was nonsense... but in another not so much; like I said, I had a specific purpose in mind when I did that (to drive you away). It surely was not because I thought I had "lost the debate."

It was ridiculous to post that many all in a row, so that was nonsense. Just admit it and move on without making excuses.

That's exactly what I'm saying; we were both repeating ourselves over and over.

You did not say that about yourself. We obviously kept it going because we are amusing each other with our comments and funny gifs. But, then you decided to go overboard by replying with gifs to about 10 of my comments in a row.

Ah, well maybe that makes him a ...

...too. LOL!

Just for disagreeing with you? Pathetic.

Uh-oh. Well, again, he liked a couple of my posts and agreed with me in at least one of his here, so... Whatever; so be it.

I'm sure he did because I'm sure he doesn't disagree with everything you say. Even I don't. We're all Amills, after all, so we obviously all agree on some things.

WPM did, SI, not you. Not everything is about you, you... well, you know what one who thinks that is...

I didn't say that. You didn't clarify who you were quoting there. I either haven't seen that yet or missed it.

<eye roll> I get that it makes you feel good to insult my intelligence, but I kind of take that as a compliment coming from you, really, at least concerning the things we've been talking about, Pal.

Sure you do. <huge eye roll>

 

[Davidpt]

You are in rebellion against God's authority, refusing to submit yourself to church leadership and be in fellowship with fellow believers. You're totally unaccountable to any one. What is more, it is pride to think that you irate and everyone else is wrong. It is pride to think that you do not need the body and the body does not need you. Christ has ordained the local church as his entity for fellowship, witness and accountability. Doubtless, you're not tithing either. So you are also robbing from God.

This explains your attitude on these forums. No one can talk to you. No one can reason with you.

You mean submit to all those false teacher leaders like I used to do in the 80s? Thanks, but no thanks. Not to mention, the churches in the 80s I used to attend were somewhat mega churches. Easy to get lost in the crowd and no one even acknowledging that you are there unless you come with a group of other believers. I usually came by myself, though.

 

[Davidpt]

He also doesn't need pastors, prophets, evangelists and apostles. He needs no one. He knows it all. He is right and everyone else is wrong.

The way I look at it, if I'm the only person on the entire planet that has concluded something that no other person has concluded, my chances of being correct are zero. I at least have enough sense to realize that. But if others have concluded pretty much the same thing, even if they are not in the majority, that means the odds go from zero that I'm correct to something at least measurable. Which then could mean that the majority is not always correct every single time. Sure, in some cases the majority is correct. But in every case, though?

For example, how I interpret the sheep and goats judgment based on the context that just proceeded it involving Christ's profitable and unprofitable professed servants. My interpretation of that might not be among the majority, yet I'm hardly the only one on the planet that interprets it in that manner. Therefore, at least the odds of me being correct is not zero, it is above zero.