The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[Spiritual Israelite]

Too bad Jesus doesn't claim that as well, in John 12:48, for instance.

Amils then believe eternity has a last day? Talk about something worthy of a LOL. As if eternity, IOW, outside of time, involves days, let alone a last day. As if eternity can somehow end rather than continue forever.

No, that's not what we believe. I explained what we believe in a different post. Why do you waste so much time making straw man arguments? You can't get that time back. It's foolish.

You want to talk about something being worthy of a LOL. You thinking that Jesus will judge billions of people when He comes one by one in the realm of time. LOL! Ridiculous.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

If Amils take this to be involving the GWTJ, that means you are interpreting the last day as follows---He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in eternity.

No, that's not what we believe. We believe that once the last day arrives then eternity quickly follows, so it can be said that the judgment will occur at the last day. It doesn't have to occur within the last day as you falsely believe. You instead think that Jesus will actually judge billions of people in the realm of time which would take a ridiculous amount of time. Why in the world would you believe such a thing? It's ludicrous.

IOW, if you are correct, apparently Jesus lied to us here since He said He will do this in the last day, not in eternity instead.

Clearly, John 12:48 is involving something that takes place inside of time, not outside of time. Since everyone should already know, thus already agree, that the last day occurs in the realm of measurable time, not in the realm of eternity where time is not measurable. Once again, there is no last day in eternity. Because if there is, this would obviously mean eternity ends eventually, rather than continues forever.

No one is equating the last day with eternity. You are foolishly wasting your time arguing with a straw man.

Are you going to move the goal post and now claim, keeping in mind, you being an Amil and all, that John 12:48 doesn't involve Revelation 20:11-15 after all?

Of course not. Any other dumb questions you'd like to ask?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I'm still on the subject of disproving men's Amill theories.

You never even started doing that. You have disproved NOTHING except that you are a cherry picker who makes scripture say what you want it to say instead of accepting the full counsel of the Word of God.

 

[PinSeeker]

We claim that the judgment occurs right after He returns and the judgment occurs in eternity. It does not take place in the realm of time in heaven or on earth (see Rev 20:11).

Well now I, as an "amill" ~ again, I think the correct term is nunc-mill, the 'nunc' prefix indicating we are in the midst of the present "millennium" ~ would disagree with what you say here, SI. God is redeeming creation, of which time is a part. God is outside of time... the potentate of time, as the hymn correctly states... so time will not cease to be at any time before or after the judgment.

There is the present age and the age to come, which is eternity, which will have no end. I mean, hey, there will be a life to live in eternity. Things to do, work to do, places to go... a life to live. But there will be no more sin, no more crying or suffering, and, of course, we will truly glorify God and enjoy Him... It'll be... well, truly glorious. <smile> The fact that it will have no end does not mean there will be no time. As for me, personally, I, for example, am really, really, REALLY looking forward to ~ among other things ~ having a LOT of tee times, and after every one of them enjoying my glorified golf game at a glorified golf course... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Amils then believe eternity has a last day?

Well of course not...

Talk about something worthy of a LOL.

It would be, yes. <smile> I mean, it would have to be called something other than "eternity," for one thing... LOL!

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[PinSeeker]

I tend to think that Amils mean by eternity is simply this, outside of time.

Nope. See my reply to SI above. Time will still be a construct in the New Heaven and New Earth. God is outside of time (the potentate of time, as I said above, quoting the great hymn); time is part of His creation.

Who but Amils would conflate a last day with outside of time, as if they are one and the same thing?

That's certainly not "amills"... (nunc-mills). <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

Nope. See my reply to SI above. Time will still be a construct in the New Heaven and New Earth. God is outside of time (the potentate of time, as I said above, quoting the great hymn); time is part of His creation.



That's certainly not "amills"... (nunc-mills). <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

In my view the last day is an era of time involving more than a mere 24 hour day. And that it begins with Christ's 2nd coming. Since it is more than 24 hours to begin with, what then is the issue with the thousand years being part of the last day? That aside.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Multiple choice question. What does this verse plainly say?

A) the same shall judge him in the last day

B) the same shall judge him before the last day

C) the same shall judge him after the last day

D) the same shall judge him outside of the last day

I don't know, but maybe C) and D) mean the same thing? That aside though, there can only be one answer.

Me being Premil, I see a way to understand this that would not be causing a conflict with Revelation 20:11-15 since this judgment isn't involving those verses to begin with, it is involving the sheep and goats judgment.

Look what the text states---He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken

Seriously, how in the world can that be applied to anyone before Christ even came first then spoke those words? Like it makes sense that this can also apply to Cain, for instance. Context then, plus a little common sense, is how we should be interpreting Scriptures like this. And not with doctrinal bias instead. The same applies to the sheep and goats judgment. As if it makes sense, that Cain, for example, is standing there on the left among the goats and that he too is answering Christ in the same manner as all the goats are. As if Cain had a professed personal relationship with Christ before He was even born first. Not to mention, Cain would not be pro Christ to begin with. He doesn't fit the goats, in more ways than one. Talk about absurd if the goats are also meaning Cain, satanists, atheists, etc. Except the idea is to make sense out of the texts involved, not render them absurd instead.

 

[Davidpt]

No, that's not what we believe. I explained what we believe in a different post. Why do you waste so much time making straw man arguments? You can't get that time back. It's foolish.

You want to talk about something being worthy of a LOL. You thinking that Jesus will judge billions of people when He comes one by one in the realm of time. LOL! Ridiculous.

First you complain about me misrepresenting your view, then you turn right around and misrepresent my view. As if I believe that John 12:48 is involving Revelation 20:11-15 to begin with. More on that in a moment.

But come on man, just because I asked a question like that does not mean I think you all actually believe that. I have enough sense to know that none of you believe that. I was just making a point is all, that since there is no last day in the realm of outside of time, it is then ludricrous to apply this verse in the manner some of you appear to be applying it.

No, that's not what we believe. We believe that once the last day arrives then eternity quickly follows, so it can be said that the judgment will occur at the last day. It doesn't have to occur within the last day as you falsely believe. You instead think that Jesus will actually judge billions of people in the realm of time which would take a ridiculous amount of time. Why in the world would you believe such a thing? It's ludicrous.


No one is equating the last day with eternity. You are foolishly wasting your time arguing with a straw man.


Of course not. Any other dumb questions you'd like to ask?

You mean like the dumb questions you ask me from time to time? That aside.

Maybe so, that it is not what you believe. Yet you act as if, the way you believe it is the only valid way to believe it, meaning this last day in question. But it would not be ludicrous to apply the last day to the millennium though, and that being when Jesus judges a person for rejecting His words. Meaning in the beginning of the millennium during the sheep and goats judgment.

Look what the text says---He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken

Common sense says, first of all He has to be born first, then speak all of these words before one can reject Him, thus receive not His words. Are you going to argue that what is recorded in the NT, that everything Jesus said in the NT, He already said these things in the OT? Probably not, right? How then can John 12:48 possibly be applied to anyone that lived before Christ came, and lived before He even spoke those words?

IOW then, in context John 12:48 is only involving anyone that has lived during the past 2000 years through His return. And is only being applied to anyone who rejects Him after hearing His words. Except even the past 2000 years can't be involving every single person that has lived these past 2000 years since there is such a thing as some people not even aware that there ever was anyone named Jesus that lived 2000 years ago. How then can they reject someone and His words if they never even heard of Jesus to begin with, let alone never heard any of His words via preaching or whatever?

Therefore, there has to be a period of time after Christ returns that can resolve some of these unfair things if Amil is to be believed. As if it is fair and just to have John 12:48 applied to someone that never even heard of Jesus. As if that makes sense of what the text plainly states.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First you complain about me misrepresenting your view, then you turn right around and misrepresent my view.

You have misrepresented my view far more times than I've misrepresented yours, so this comment doesn't mean anything to me.

As if I believe that John 12:48 is involving Revelation 20:11-15 to begin with.

You should. There is only one judgment of all people, as can be clearly seen in Matthew 25:31-46, which has its timing right after Christ comes with His angels in the future. It should be obvious that the goats being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" is the same thing as those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). There is no basis whatsoever for your multiple judgment theory.

But come on man, just because I asked a question like that does not mean I think you all actually believe that.

Are you just playing some kind of game then? How can I ever know when you're asking a genuine question? I'm not interested in playing your mind games.

I have enough sense to know that none of you believe that. I was just making a point is all, that since there is no last day in the realm of outside of time, it is then ludricrous to apply this verse in the manner some of you appear to be applying it.

How do you think we're applying it then? Apparently, you don't think we're applying it in the way you described because you're now saying you weren't being serious. So, how can anyone know what in the world you are actually saying? Stop messing around and be clear. These games you play are a waste of time.

You mean like the dumb questions you ask me from time to time? That aside.

Give me even one example of a dumb question I've asked you. I think you're making this up because you're taking offense that I called you out for asking a dumb question.

Maybe so, that it is not what you believe.

LOL. Are you for real? What in the world makes you think that you decide what I believe? You don't. I tell you what I believe. You don't tell me what I believe. Imagine me telling you that something you say you believe isn't what you believe. Wow. Is this just you not being serious again or what?

Yet you act as if, the way you believe it is the only valid way to believe it, meaning this last day in question.

Is that not how you are acting as well about how you understand it? I don't see you saying that my view is a valid possibility. So, please stop the hypocrisy.

But it would not be ludicrous to apply the last day to the millennium though, and that being when Jesus judges a person for rejecting His words. Meaning in the beginning of the millennium during the sheep and goats judgment.

Would you agree that we're talking about billions of people being judged there, regardless of whether we believe it's the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15 or not? Think about how long it would take Jesus to judge that many people in the realm of time. Remember, it will involve each individual giving an account of themselves to Him (Romans 14:10-12, Matt 25:31-46). Yet, that's what you think He will do? How long do you think that will take? How can He rule the nations during the supposed future thousand years in that case? He would be too busy judging everyone for who knows how long to do that.

Look what the text says---He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken

Common sense says, first of all He has to be born first, then speak all of these words before one can reject Him, thus receive not His words. Are you going to argue that what is recorded in the NT, that everything Jesus said in the NT, He already said these things in the OT? Probably not, right? How then can John 12:48 possibly be applied to anyone that lived before Christ came, and lived before He even spoke those words?

I'm not saying that what He said in that verse applies to OT believers who obviously were around before He spoke any words. As a man, anyway. Obviously, He was God before becoming the God man. Anyway, where did He say that those who reject His words, referring to people rejecting Him during NT times, would not be judged at the same time as OT unbelievers? Nowhere. So, how exactly are you concluding that NT unbelievers will be judged separately from OT unbelievers (if that's what you're saying, which is apparently the case)?

IOW then, in context John 12:48 is only involving anyone that has lived during the past 2000 years through His return. And is only being applied to anyone who rejects Him after hearing His words.

So? Why do you always look at things so narrowly? Do you think maybe we can bring some other scripture into the equation to bring clarity? I think so. Did He not indicate in John 5:28-29 that all who are in the graves will be resurrected at the same time? Well, you won't agree with that, but at the very least you should agree that He indicated that all dead unbelievers will be resurrected and judged at the same time, right? Do you think He was only referring to OT unbelievers or was referring only to NT unbelievers in that passage when He referred to the dead who will be resurrected unto damnation?

Except even the past 2000 years can't be involving every single person that has lived these past 2000 years since there is such a thing as some people not even aware that there ever was anyone named Jesus that lived 2000 years ago. How then can they reject someone and His words if they never even heard of Jesus to begin with, let alone never heard any of His words via preaching or whatever?

Once again, you are wasting your time making a straw man argument. When did I say that John 12:48 applies to literally all unbelievers from all-time? Never. Yet, you're acting as if I said that. Try actually addressing what I do say and what I actually believe for once so that you stop wasting your time making straw man arguments.

Therefore, there has to be a period of time after Christ returns that can resolve some of these unfair things if Amil is to be believed.

What are you talking about here? Explain.

As if it is fair and just to have John 12:48 applied to someone that never even heard of Jesus. As if that makes sense of what the text plainly states.

I never said that John 12:48 applies to someone who never heard of Jesus. How can someone who never even heard of Him reject His words? You think I'm stupid? I know that isn't possible. My point is that all unbelievers from all-time will be judged at the same time, as evidenced by paassages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and John 5:28-29. So, that would mean John 12:48 tells us that the judgment will occur at the last day since it refers to some of all those who will be judged at the same time. And we know that when the last day comes, that is when believers will be resurrected, also. So, that doesn't allow for a thousand year time period (plus Satan's little season) in between.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well now I, as an "amill" ~ again, I think the correct term is nunc-mill, the 'nunc' prefix indicating we are in the midst of the present "millennium" ~ would disagree with what you say here, SI.

People who pay attention know what amills believe, so there's no need for you to try to change terms. The term people are familiar with is amillenniallism, so you might as well just accept it. It's not going to change.

Anyway, I was not intending to speak for all Amills, but I think most Amils would agree with what I said. How can the judgment take place in the realm of time without occurring on earth or in heaven, according to Revelation 20:11?

God is redeeming creation, of which time is a part. God is outside of time... the potentate of time, as the hymn correctly states... so time will not cease to be at any time before or after the judgment.

This is a very vague argument. Show me where scripture teaches that time, as we know it, will continue for eternity. And, let me be clear that when I say there will be no more time at that point, I mean no more time as we know it, at least. If there is time in eternity, then it will be different than the time we know now because time as we know it now will come to an end. The time we know now is dependent on the earth's rotation and the earth revolving around the sun. I do not believe that the new earth will rotate and revolve around the sun, so time as we know it now will not exist at that point.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

There is the present age and the age to come, which is eternity, which will have no end.

You know that I, as an Amil, believe that, right? You say that to me as if you are telling me something I don't already know and believe.

I mean, hey, there will be a life to live in eternity. Things to do, work to do, places to go... a life to live.

No kidding. Wow. I had no idea. Amazing. <smile>

But there will be no more sin, no more crying or suffering, and, of course, we will truly glorify God and enjoy Him... It'll be... well, truly glorious. <smile>

Why are you telling me this as if you think I don't also understand and believe this? <confused look on face>

The fact that it will have no end does not mean there will be no time.

Oh, really? It seems as though you are speculating here rather than giving any evidence to back up your view. Do you have any scripture to back up what you're saying or anything else you have to support what you're saying?

As for me, personally, I, for example, am really, really, REALLY looking forward to ~ among other things ~ having a LOT of tee times, and after every one of them enjoying my glorified golf game at a glorified golf course... <smile>

While that would be fun, that's kind of a ridiculous way of looking at eternity. What I look forward to is seeing Jesus as He is and bowing at His feet, worshiping Him day and night. Yeah, we might have other things to do as well (not likely involving golf, though), but what you say you are seemingly most looking forward to, which is not likely to even be something you will actually ever be doing is...strange.

Don't get me wrong. Actually having a glorified golf game that we can play on a glorified golf course does sound appealing, but I don't really tend to think that will happen. But, we can hope. But, there will be far better things to do than that as well such as, you know, worshiping Jesus and stuff.

 

[PinSeeker]

People who pay attention know what amills believe, so there's no need for you to try to change terms. The term people are familiar with is amillenniallism, so you might as well just accept it. It's not going to change.

Good Lord. <eye roll> Nobody's changing terms. The term amillennial is really kind of a misnomer, for the reason I noted; there is a millennium, of course, but because of the 'a' prefix, the implication is really that there is not a millennium, which is not the case at all, and those who we call amillennialists do not believe. Nunc-millennialism is the more accurate term, because we are in the midst of the millennium now. But, no matter, really; as long as we know what amillennialism is, then the terms are interchangeable.

Anyway, I was not intending to speak for all Amills...

But you kinnnnnnn-da diiiiiid... <smile> "We believe...", "we claim..." Yeah, you kinda did. <smile> But that's okay, no need to get all angry about that and argue about that, now... <eye roll>

...but I think most Amils would agree with what I said.

I think not, but that's... okay. Really, that's okay.

How can the judgment take place in the realm of time without occurring on earth or in heaven, according to Revelation 20:11?

It will be on earth, within creation (which is being made new at present, and will be on Christ's return), and time will still be passing, even during and after the final Judgment. But, hey, if you disagree, then okay. Really.

This is a very vague argument. Show me where scripture teaches that time, as we know it, will continue for eternity.

The only thing we can look at that is concrete in the Bible concerning how things will be in eternity is pre-Fall creation and the life of Adam and Eve up to the Fall in Genesis 3. No one had invented the clock yet, of course... <chuckles> ...but time began at creation ("In the beginning..." ~ Genesis 1:1) ~ for example, "...there was morning and evening, the first day" (Genesis 1:5) ~ and time has been passing ever since. Time will not cease to be in eternity. As I said, the construct of time as we know it is part of God's creation, and God, since the Fall, is "making all things new" (Revelation 21:5), meaning setting them right again as they originally were, perfect and without sin, not "making all new things."

And, let me be clear that when I say there will be no more time at that point, I mean no more time as we know it, at least. If there is time in eternity, then it will be different than the time we know now because time as we know it now will come to an end.

Okay, fine, but I disagree. See above. The only difference is that in eternity, time will have no end, because eternity, the age to come, will have no end.

I do not believe that the new earth will rotate and revolve around the sun, so time as we know it now will not exist at that point.

LOL! Okay, SI. Disagree, but okay. <smile> I just don't understand why every little thing has to turn into a "beat-the-heck-outta-ya" argument with you. <smile> But... I don't really care. <smile>

You know that I, as an Amil, believe that, right? You say that to me as if you are telling me something I don't already know and believe. No kidding. Wow. I had no idea. Amazing. <smile> Why are you telling me this as if you think I don't also understand and believe this? <confused look on face>

Man, come on. Come on. I'm certainly not talking down to anybody. Good Lord.

Oh, really? It seems as though you are speculating here rather than giving any evidence to back up your view. Do you have any scripture to back up what you're saying or anything else you have to support what you're saying?

See above.

While that would be fun, that's kind of a ridiculous way of looking at eternity.

Oh my goodness. Dude. Quit taking everything ~ and yourself, I guess ~ so seriously. Goodness gracious.

What I look forward to is seeing Jesus as He is and bowing at His feet, worshiping Him day and night.

My goodness. Well, yeah, great, me, too. It will be awesome, for sure. But that will not be our only function in eternity. <smile>

Yeah, we might have other things to do as well (not likely involving golf, though), but what you say you are seemingly most looking forward to, which is not likely to even be something you will actually ever be doing is...strange.

Come on, man. Come on. What I said was purely to... well, lighten things up a bit, I guess. I do look forward to playing golf in my glorified body though... LOL!

Don't get me wrong.

Hard to do that... LOL!

Actually having a glorified golf game that we can play on a glorified golf course does sound appealing, but I don't really tend to think that will happen.

Fair enough. <smile> All of creation, along with us, will be glorified. You know that. And there will be golf courses, and those of us that like to play golf will do so, at least from time to time. LOL!

...we can hope. But, there will be far better things to do than that as well such as, you know, worshiping Jesus and stuff.

Sure. But hey, SI, maybe, just maybe, in everything we do in eternity ~ including playing golf or whatever we may like to do ~ we will truly do it in Christ, worshiping Him even as we do all these things. Right? Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

And by that you PROVE that Christ's "thousand years" reign of the future is STILL not God's Eternity of the future new heavens and a new earth.

Yep, after the 1000 Year Reign of the Lord.... God is going to re-create Heaven and Earth and then move Heaven to earth

 

[PinSeeker]

In my view the last day is an era of time involving more than a mere 24 hour day. And that it begins with Christ's 2nd coming. Since it is more than 24 hours to begin with, what then is the issue with the thousand years being part of the last day? That aside.

Hmmmm. Interesting. Well... Hebrews 1:1-2 says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." Yes, it says, "in these last days," ('days,' of course, is plural). But we can also say that in the sense of what you are saying here, that this is the "last day" ~ the entire age from Pentecost (the coming of the Holy Spirit) to the return of Christ, which is still yet to come meaning this last era, or last age, so yes, in that sense, then we can speak of the "thousand years" and the millennium of Revelation 20 being the "last day."

So, sure, I understand what you are saying, but I don't really think we can go that far. Jesus does say, as you know, I'm sure, that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44), and "Whoever feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:54). I... think... you will agree with me that He is speaking of His return and the implied "second resurrection" of Revelation 20 (the fact that there is a first ~ Revelation 20:6 ~ implies that there is a second), at least the resurrection to eternal life of those in Christ ~ although that's not the full "second resurrection;" the resurrection to judgment of those not in Christ occurs at the same time (or immediately thereafter). So what I'm getting at in this is that Jesus is speaking of a specific time in John 5:28-29 ("an hour is coming") and John 6:44 and 5:54, even a specific day ~ and possibly a specific hour. So, a question: Will (in order, after the close of the "thousand years") His return, His final defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, the departure of those not in Christ into the "lake of fire," the place of "outer darkness", and the coming in full of the New Heaven and New Earth all happen in a twenty-four hour period? Well, I think so, and probably much less than that, but there's no way to actually know that. But I do think it's safe to say that all of that will not take a thousand 365-day periods (earth years). <smile> I think it will all happen in... less than... maybe much less than... twenty-four hours. <smile> But that's just my opinion. <smile>

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Multiple choice question. What does this verse plainly say?

A) the same shall judge him in the last day

B) the same shall judge him before the last day

C) the same shall judge him after the last day

D) the same shall judge him outside of the last day

I say 'A.' <smile> In the same sense as John 5 and 6 above. <smile>

I don't know, but maybe C) and D) mean the same thing?

That may be, but I think both are... well, outside... <chuckle> ...what Jesus is saying in John 12:48. It probably would be better to read the ESV or the NASB or maybe the NIV there. I'm not dissing the KJV, but those versions are clearer to hour twenty-first century American ears. <smile>

That aside though, there can only be one answer.

Sure. God is not... duplicitous... <smile> And neither was Jesus in anything He said. But I will say ~ and I think you will agree ~ that much of what He said had both immediate and eternal implications.

Me being Premil, I see a way to understand this that would not be causing a conflict with Revelation 20:11-15 since this judgment isn't involving those verses to begin with, it is involving the sheep and goats judgment.

Hm. I say the final Judgment is the final Judgment. <smile> There's not... more than one final Judgment. <smile> Just regarding the sheep and the goats, David... I mean, Jesus does say, as I'm sure you know, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (John 10:11), "...just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep" (John 10:15), and "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27). Implicit in all these statements is that the opposite is true of the "goats" (who will in the end be sent away, will depart into judgment), or, likewise, the "tares" (who will be separated from the "wheat")... these are different ways of referring to the same group of folks, those who will be resurrected to judgment (John 5:28-29) and will not be "in the congregation of the righteous" and "will not stand in the Judgment" (Psalm 1)...

Seriously, how in the world can that be applied to anyone before Christ even came first then spoke those words?

Hm. Do you not think, David, that there were folks who were "in Christ," as Paul puts it in Romans 8:1, even before Christ came into the world? Do you somehow think that no one spoken of in the Old Testament will be saved, and we will not see them in the New Heaven and New Earth? Surely you don't... I mean, one cursory reading of Hebrews 11 should tell you ~ emphatically ~ otherwise. Hey, Jesus Himself says that ALL OF SCRIPTURE is about Him, from Moses (the Pentateuch) through all the Prophets (John 5:46). Christ was spoken of in what we call types and shadows throughout the Old Testament... this is what the writer of Hebrews is saying in Hebrews 1:1 ~ "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets..." And we can discern this to in Luke 24:27 where Jesus, in His conversation with the two men on the road to Emmaus, "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets... interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." No? So, for example:

• Who is the Ark that carries us through the flood? (Genesis 6-8)
• Who is the true ram in the thicket? (Genesis 22)
• Who is the One represented by Joseph, for Whom ~ in the greater sense ~ evil was meant against, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive? (Genesis 50)
• Who is the Lamb without blemish? (various passages early in Leviticus, especially chapter 16, wh0 truly atones for sin and redeems)
• Who is the manna from heaven (the bread of life)? (Exodus 16)
• Who is the true Law? (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)
• Who is the true Kinsman Redeemer, who Boaz represents? (Ruth 4)

The list goes on and on, of course. This is how God spoke to the ancient Israelites of Jesus, who was then yet to come.

As if it makes sense, that Cain, for example, is standing there on the left among the goats and that he too is answering Christ in the same manner as all the goats are.

He will be. And Abel will be standing with us on Jesus's right.

As if Cain had a professed personal relationship with Christ before He was even born first.

Right; he did not. But Abel did. I say Christ's personal relationships began with Adam, whom God actually spoke to...

Not to mention, Cain would not be pro Christ to begin with.

Right; he remained of his father the devil, to use Christ's language from John 6, 8, and 10. But not Abel...

He doesn't fit the goats, in more ways than one.

I say he does.

Talk about absurd if the goats are also meaning Cain, satanists, atheists, etc.

All those not in Christ are among the goats. But of those still alive in this world, or yet to be born also, some will not remain that way. But those who did and those who will (remain among the goats), will... be on Christ's left in the final Judgment.

Except the idea is to make sense out of the texts involved, not render them absurd instead.

Well, I agree, of course... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good Lord. <eye roll>

The feeling is mutual.

Nobody's changing terms.

You mean other than you?

The term amillennial is really kind of a misnomer, for the reason I noted;

Who cares? People who pay attention know what we believe, so the term doesn't matter.

there is a millennium, of course, but because of the 'a' prefix, the implication is really that there is not a millennium, which is not the case at all, and those who we call amillennialists do not believe. Nunc-millennialism is the more accurate term, because we are in the midst of the millennium now. But, no matter, really; as long as we know what amillennialism is, then the terms are interchangeable.

LOL. You are putting me to sleep.

But you kinnnnnnn-da diiiiiid... <smile> "We believe...", "we claim..." Yeah, you kinda did. <smile> But that's okay, no need to get all angry about that and argue about that, now... <eye roll>

Holy goodness. This is utterly stupid. I'm not angry about anything. You are the one making a big deal out of nothing here.

I think not, but that's... okay. Really, that's okay.

Uh huh.

It will be on earth, within creation (which is being made new at present, and will be on Christ's return), and time will still be passing, even during and after the final Judgment. But, hey, if you disagree, then okay. Really.

Are you sure it's okay? I don't really get the sense that you think it's okay. But, if you say so. Okay then.

The only thing we can look at that is concrete in the Bible concerning how things will be in eternity is pre-Fall creation and the life of Adam and Eve up to the Fall in Genesis 3. No one had invented the clock yet, of course... <chuckles> ...but time began at creation ("In the beginning..." ~ Genesis 1:1) ~ for example, "...there was morning and evening, the first day" (Genesis 1:5) ~ and time has been passing ever since. Time will not cease to be in eternity. As I said, the construct of time as we know it is part of God's creation, and God, since the Fall, is "making all things new" (Revelation 21:5), meaning setting them right again as they originally were, perfect and without sin, not "making all new things."

All you are doing is speculating here. You're not doing anything to actually prove that there will be time in eternity.

Okay, fine, but I disagree. See above. The only difference is that in eternity, time will have no end, because eternity, the age to come, will have no end.

If there is time in eternity, can you at least acknowledge it will not be time as we know it? Time as we know it involves the rotation of the earth and the earth revolving around the sun. Revelation 21 and 22 indicate that there will be no sun in eternity.

LOL! Okay, SI. Disagree, but okay. <smile> I just don't understand why every little thing has to turn into a "beat-the-heck-outta-ya" argument with you. <smile> But... I don't really care. <smile>

Except you clearly do care. <laugh>

Man, come on. Come on. I'm certainly not talking down to anybody. Good Lord.

Can you please stop saying "Good Lord"? I see that as taking the Lord's name in vain. And, yes, you talk down to everybody.

Oh my goodness. Dude. Quit taking everything ~ and yourself, I guess ~ so seriously. Goodness gracious.

LOL. Stop pretending as if you know me. I do take scripture seriously, which I will never apologize for. And that's what we're discussing. I absolutely do not take everything, including myself, seriously all the time. But, how would you know that? You don't know me. Stop acting as if you do.

Come on, man. Come on. What I said was purely to... well, lighten things up a bit, I guess. I do look forward to playing golf in my glorified body though... LOL!

Do you have to take offense at everything? Goodness gracious, you are so uptight. We're talking about eternity and your first thought is golf. I think that is a big strange.

Fair enough. <smile> All of creation, along with us, will be glorified. You know that. And there will be golf courses, and those of us that like to play golf will do so, at least from time to time. LOL!

And how do you know there will be golf courses? Give me the chapter and verse which talks about golf courses on the new earth. LOL! <hysterical laughter>

Sure. But hey, SI, maybe, just maybe, in everything we do in eternity ~ including playing golf or whatever we may like to do ~ we will truly do it in Christ, worshiping Him even as we do all these things. Right? Goodness gracious.

Goodness gracious, man. Yeah, you can glorify God while you golf, I suppose. Goodness gracious. But, what if there isn't golf in eternity? Will you be okay? LOL!

 

[PinSeeker]

You mean other than you?

Nobody is changing any terms. In this case, either can be used, but one is more accurately descriptive than the other. As I said.

Who cares?

I care not if you care or not. <smile>

I'm not angry about anything.

Yes you are. It kinda drips from every one of your posts. You know, figuratively speaking. <smile>

You are the one making a big deal out of nothing here.

No, that would be you.

Are you sure it's okay?

Yes. Are you going to start arguing about that, now? <smile>

I don't really get the sense that you think it's okay. But, if you say so. Okay then.

Disagreement on these things is okay. But it's surely not okay with you if anyone disagrees with you, obviously.

All you are doing is speculating here.

Nope. What we see before the Fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 gives us some ~ some ~ insight into what life will be like in eternity.

You're not doing anything to actually prove that there will be time in eternity.

In... your... "humble" opinion. But, yeah, I did. But okay. Yep, really. Okay.

If there is time in eternity, can you at least acknowledge it will not be time as we know it?

Nope. God made what He made. And time and the passage thereof is part of that. Now. Will you or I be different? Well, yes, in the sense that we won't be sinful anymore, and we'll truly glorify God and enjoy Him forever as we ought, even now (but because of our sinfulness are not yet able to). But will we be the same physical human beings that we are now? I say yes. We will truly be glorified then, as everyone else and all the rest of creation will be, but it will not be different in substance. Adam and Eve were no different, even pre-Fall, were no different (in substance) than you or I. And we will be that way in eternity. And so will time, it just... won't have any end. You have sung Amazing Grace, have you not? "When we've been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun, we've no less days to sing God's praise than when we'd first begun..." Yeah? I mean, that's not Scripture, but still... <smile>

Time as we know it involves the rotation of the earth and the earth revolving around the sun. Revelation 21 and 22 indicate that there will be no sun in eternity.

Ah, Revelation 21:23 and 22:5... You know, actually, I'm going to disagree with you here, too, I guess. Not a big deal, just conjecture, really... interesting conversation... but the text does not say there will be no sun or moon, but that there will be no need for them for light (or lamps). But we will finally have the one True Light in its fullness ~ the glory of God and the Lamb. I mean hey, you're an "amill." Why do you seem to be taking something in Revelation so woodenly literal now? Isn't that what we say should not be done? <smile>

Except you clearly do care. <laugh>

I don't care that you're so stuck on yourself that you have to be acknowledged as right on everything and win every argument, even when there really is no argument, other than the one you make. That's a you thing.

Can you please stop saying "Good Lord"? I see that as taking the Lord's name in vain.

Ah, well, okay, good point, but maybe you can ~ please ~ remove the log from your own eye...? <smile>

And, yes, you talk down to everybody.

Well, everybody does, in one way or another. So yeah, my apologies to you. But so do you. Some of us are not so belittling and condescending, and, well, nasty about it, though.

Stop pretending as if you know me.

What you say ~ and you say plenty on this board, for all to see ~ reveals quite a bit about you. Especially how you conduct yourself and interact with others. That's true of all of us. I do suspect, though, that you'd be quite different in person.

I do take scripture seriously, which I will never apologize for.

As do I.

I absolutely do not take everything, including myself, seriously all the time.

I didn't say "everything," Or "all the time." But it's quite obvious that in these discussions ~ and not just with me ~ you take yourself... well, yeah, too seriously.

But, how would you know that? You don't know me. Stop acting as if you do.

I can see what you say, here, to me and to others. I'm not claiming to know you. But, from our interactions, and your interactions with others, on this board, I can... discern some ~ some, not a lot, but some ~ things.

Do you have to take offense at everything?

Of course not. And I don't. I probably do take offense at more than I ought to. But not here.

Goodness gracious, you are so uptight.

Hmmm, well I think that of you. I mean, you're the one picking out every little thing and picking arguments. That says quite a bit, really.

We're talking about eternity and your first thought is golf.

No, of course not; I was just making a tongue-in-cheek comment, but even so, there is a point in that.

There are a lot of life lessons in golf, and sports in general.

But yeah, I say that in eternity, we will continue to enjoy what we enjoy now, but just better ~ the difference being that we will truly enjoy those things in the Lord. And, not that this happens a whole lot, but I won't get mad or say any bad words when I hit a bad shot... <smile> Oh, hey, wait! I might not ever hit any more bad shots in my glorified body! Wouldn't THAT be great!

LOL!

I think that is a big strange.

Okay. <smile>

And how do you know there will be golf courses? Give me the chapter and verse which talks about golf courses on the new earth. LOL! <hysterical laughter>

Hey, yeah, I'll laugh right along with you on that. LOL! <grin>

But, what if there isn't golf in eternity?

Will you be okay? LOL!

<grin>

Grace and peace to you, SI.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I care not if you care or not. <smile>

I care not if you care not that I care or not. <wink>

Yes you are. It kinda drips from every one of your posts. You know, figuratively speaking. <smile>

It's always hilarious to me how people on a forum like this, who have never met someone in person, think they know the other person. That is just incredible to me. What you know about me is what I believe about end times scripture. That's it. Nothing else. So, don't pretend otherwise.

Disagreement on these things is okay. But it's surely not okay with you if anyone disagrees with you, obviously.

When did I say that's not okay with me? Never. It is okay with me. Okay?

Nope. What we see before the Fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 gives us some ~ some ~ insight into what life will be like in eternity.

I think you need to raise your expectations. I don't think we can even begin to imagine what it will be like. If we could, that would be disappointing since our minds are so limited right now.

In... your... "humble" opinion. But, yeah, I did. But okay. Yep, really. Okay.

Okay.

Nope. God made what He made.

<sigh> How exactly will time continue in eternity when there is no sun and time depends on the earth revolving around the sun? <good grief>

Ah, Revelation 21:23 and 22:5... You know, actually, I'm going to disagree with you here, too, I guess.

What a shocker.

Not a big deal, just conjecture, really... interesting conversation...

I agree with this. You think I'm making a huge deal out of this, but I'm not. Somehow, if I disagree with you then I'm taking something too seriously, but if you disagree with me it doesn't mean that. Whether there is time in eternity or not doesn't really matter. Either way, it will never end.

but the text does not say there will be no sun or moon, but that there will be no need for them for light (or lamps).

If there's no need for them for light, why would they remain? Look at 2 Peter 3:10-12 which indicates that the heavens (there's 3 heavens) and the elements will be dissolved. Wouldn't that include the sun?

But we will finally have the one True Light in its fullness ~ the glory of God and the Lamb. I mean hey, you're an "amill." Why do you seem to be taking something in Revelation so woodenly literal now? Isn't that what we say should not be done? <smile>

Being an Amill does not mean you believe every single word in the book is symbolic.

I don't care that you're so stuck on yourself that you have to be acknowledged as right on everything and win every argument, even when there really is no argument, other than the one you make. That's a you thing.

LOL. Here's you proving once again that you don't know me. I'm just confident that what I believe is correct. So what? People take offense to that for whatever reason. Do you wish you had the same confidence or something? I don't have to be akcnowledged as right and win every argument. That's your false perception of me.

Ah, well, okay, good point, but maybe you can ~ please ~ remove the log from your own eye...? <smile>

Ther's no log there. I know a log couldn't fit in my eye. Oh, there's me being woodenly literal again. <wink> <wink>

But, seriously, I don't know what you're talking about here. What did I do that could be compared to taking the Lord' s name in vain?

Well, everybody does, in one way or another. So yeah, my apologies to you. But so do you. Some of us are not so belittling and condescending, and, well, nasty about it, though.

As if you aren't ever nasty? Do you think each time you put <smile" it cancels out when you're nasty? You're a bit lacking in self awareness.

What you say ~ and you say plenty on this board, for all to see ~ reveals quite a bit about you.

No, not really. Only about what I believe as it relates to end times. On a forum like this anything you think you are seeing on a personal level can be misconstrued. Trust me, you don't know me at all.

Especially how you conduct yourself and interact with others. That's true of all of us. I do suspect, though, that you'd be quite different in person.

Different than what you apparently think of me, for sure.

I didn't say "everything," Or "all the time."

But, if I refer to Amills generally, you say I'm talking about all Amills. I see how it is.

But it's quite obvious that in these discussions ~ and not just with me ~ you take yourself... well, yeah, too seriously.

I couldn't care less if you believe that or not. I know otherwise. People who have read many of my posts know that I inject humor into my posts fairly often.

I can see what you say, here, to me and to others. I'm not claiming to know you. But, from our interactions, and your interactions with others, on this board, I can... discern some ~ some, not a lot, but some ~ things.

Good for you.

Of course not. And I don't. I probably do take offense at more than I ought to. But not here.

Yes, you do, as your discussions with me prove. But, hey, just keep believing that if you want. It doesn't matter.

Hmmm, well I think that of you. I mean, you're the one picking out every little thing and picking arguments. That says quite a bit, really.

Oh no. You think the same of me as what I think of you. How can I ever recover? I'm devastated.

There are a lot of life lessons in golf, and sports in general.

Mostly frustrating ones when it comes to golf. <smile>

But yeah, I say that in eternity, we will continue to enjoy what we enjoy now, but just better ~ the difference being that we will truly enjoy those things in the Lord. And, not that this happens a whole lot, but I won't get mad or say any bad words when I hit a bad shot... <smile> Oh, hey, wait! I might not ever hit any more bad shots in my glorified body! Wouldn't THAT be great!

I think it will be far, far better than what you think. You seem to think that you can imagine how it will be, at least to some extent and I believe we can't imagine how it will be at all because our minds are not currently capable of it. And, in my view, you won't have to worry about the sun getting in your eyes or burning you if you are playing golf. If I'm right about there being no sun and you're right about there being perfect golf courses , then there's an extra bonus for you to look foward to in eternity. If you happen to be right about that, I will enjoy hitting a hole-in-one on every hole.

Hey, yeah, I'll laugh right along with you on that. LOL! <grin>

But, I'm too serious to laugh, right? Surely, you must be mistaken to think I would ever laugh about anything.

This was your reaction to not having golf in eternity. That seems more like how it will be for unbelievers. I guess you better really hope there is golf on the new earth or you will feel like you're in the lake of fire. <not being serious>

 

[Dan Clarkston]

That is just incredible to me.

Yes, that is without credibility fo sho

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my view the last day is an era of time involving more than a mere 24 hour day. And that it begins with Christ's 2nd coming. Since it is more than 24 hours to begin with, what then is the issue with the thousand years being part of the last day? That aside.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Multiple choice question. What does this verse plainly say?

A) the same shall judge him in the last day

B) the same shall judge him before the last day

C) the same shall judge him after the last day

D) the same shall judge him outside of the last day

I don't know, but maybe C) and D) mean the same thing? That aside though, there can only be one answer.

Me being Premil, I see a way to understand this that would not be causing a conflict with Revelation 20:11-15 since this judgment isn't involving those verses to begin with, it is involving the sheep and goats judgment.

You correctly say that John 12:48 involves the sheep and goats judgment. Here is a description of the judgment of the goats:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

You also try to say that this is a different judgment than Revelation 20:11-15. But, how can Matthew 25:41 be referring to something different than this:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The goats clearly do not have their names written in the book of life, right? Why do you believe that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into everlasting fire more than once? That makes no sense.

Also, what Jesus meant in John 12:48 is that once the last day, which is a 24 hour day, arrives, then at some point during that day He will come and then certain things will happen including the resurrection of the dead. It does not mean that the things that are said to happen at that point have to happen during the last day. It just means those thing will happen once that day arrives. This does not mean that eternity can't be ushered in at that point with the judgment occurring in the realm of eternity instead of time. You act as if the text says the one who rejects Christ's words will be judged during the last day, but it does not say that.

Tell me, ow many people do you supposed will be judged in the sheep and goats judgment? Probably billions? Do you really think that Jesus will judge billions of people one by one in the realm of time? Imagine how long that would take considering that each person has to give an account of themselves to Him (Romans 14:10-12).

Let's say there were 10 billion people being judged and each person took 5 minutes to give an account of themselves, which is a pretty conservative estimate. That would equate to 50 billion minutes that it would take Jesus to judge everyone. That equates to about 95,129 years. What about the thousand years that you think begins when Jesus comes? Will everyone have to wait 95,129 years for the thousand years to start? Please address this. You like to talk about common sense a lot, but I think there's a lack of common sense involved in concluding that Jesus would judge all of the sheep and goats within the realm of time.

Look what the text states---He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken

Seriously, how in the world can that be applied to anyone before Christ even came first then spoke those words?

Who is even claiming that? No one. You waste an unbelievable amount of time making straw man arguments. Do you never tire of that? But, just because He is only referring to those who reject His words there doesn't mean they will be judged separately from all other unbelievers. Revelation 20:15 makes it clear that all whose names are not written inthe book of life, which includes those who reject Christ's words, will be judged at the same time.

Like it makes sense that this can also apply to Cain, for instance. Context then, plus a little common sense, is how we should be interpreting Scriptures like this. And not with doctrinal bias instead. The same applies to the sheep and goats judgment. As if it makes sense, that Cain, for example, is standing there on the left among the goats and that he too is answering Christ in the same manner as all the goats are. As if Cain had a professed personal relationship with Christ before He was even born first. Not to mention, Cain would not be pro Christ to begin with. He doesn't fit the goats, in more ways than one. Talk about absurd if the goats are also meaning Cain, satanists, atheists, etc. Except the idea is to make sense out of the texts involved, not render them absurd instead.

You're calling the truth "absurd" here, which is just sad to see. For someone to call Jesus "Lord" on that day does not mean they had a professed personal relationship with Christ. Do you not know that literally all people will be bowing before Him and acknowledging that He is Lord, including unbelievers? it will be too late for unbelievers to be saved at that point, but the will acknowledge that He is Lord. It will be undeniable when He is appearing before them in all His glory.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So, your reasoning here is flawed and does not take into account that everyone will be calling Him "Lord" at that time, including Cain. satanists, atheists, etc.

 

[PinSeeker]

I care not if you care not that I care or not. <wink>

But you're still replying, so I think here, SI, maaaaaaaaaybe, just maybe, you're lying. <smile>

It's always hilarious to me how people on a forum like this, who have never met someone in person, think they know the other person.

I never said I think I know you, SI, or that I know you. But I can discern some things about you from what you say and how you say it, and I'm sure the same is true for you regarding me. But hey, spin away; you're just kind of heaping coals on your own head, it seems to me.

What you know about me is what I believe about end times scripture. That's it. Nothing else.

Even by your reaction here, yes, you're revealing at least a little something about yourself. I get it; you don't like it, and don't want to admit it, even to yourself. I'd suggest paying attention to that feeling deep in your gut right now, and maybe do a little self-introspection... but do it for yourself, of course, not for me.

When did I say that's not okay with me? Never. It is okay with me. Okay?

Hmmm. Okay. <smile>

I think you need to raise your expectations.

My expectations are... preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty highhhhhhhhhhhh.... <smile>

I don't think we can even begin to imagine what it will be like. If we could, that would be disappointing since our minds are so limited right now.

See, I don't disagree with this, SI, but I think we can see that from Adam's and Eve's life before the Fall, we will be in creation ~ but creation made new... perfect, actually, without sin... and Jesus will be here with us, and there will indeed be a life to be lived. I'm sure you know that in Genesis 2, we read that God put Adam in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it (Genesis 2:15), and from that I say we can discern that in eternity, after the earth is made new, there will be work to do. So again, I say we will do a lot of the stuff we do now, but everything will be infinitely more enjoyable, and there will be no sin in any of it. Everything we do will be in perfect praise of the living God. Even... possibly... a good round of golf. <smile> If we so choose. <smile>

How exactly will time continue in eternity when there is no sun and time depends on the earth revolving around the sun? <good grief>

Yeah, I disagree that there will be no sun. <smile> Which I think you could tell from my last post. I don't think we can read Revelation 21:23 and 22:5, that there will be no sun. The text says there will be no need for it, but it does not say the sun and moon will be no more. God made all His creation very good, and I don't think He's going to... discard... any of it. As He says in Revelation 21:5, He is making all things new... not "making all new things."

You think I'm making a huge deal out of this, but I'm not.

You are.

Somehow, if I disagree with you then I'm taking something too seriously....

No, that's not what I said, SI. That's not what I said. I don't... think... I ever said I think you take anything too seriously... except yourself. <smile> Which... seems evident to me both in what you say and how you say it. And like I said, I see it in your interactions with others on this board occasionally, too; it's not just with me.

Whether there is time in eternity or not doesn't really matter. Either way, it will never end.

True and true. But the first part of that, on the question of time in eternity... Based on what you have said and how you have said it ~ and how... vociferously... you have argued against the idea of it... I mean, yeah, it does matter to you. Or... maybe you just want (maybe a little too pridefully) to be right. <smile>

If there's no need for them for light, why would they remain? Look at 2 Peter 3:10-12 which indicates that the heavens (there's 3 heavens) and the elements will be dissolved. Wouldn't that include the sun?

Ahhhh, 'burned up and dissolved'... Well, I mean, I think I know the answer to this, because I think we're on the same page, but think about what John says in Revelation 20. I think you and I agree about the lake of fire, there, and unbelievers will be thrown into it. Yeah? I think Peter is speaking in the same sense, there... Or really more in the same sense as what Malachi says in Malachi 3.... "(the Lord) will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord." And again, in Revelation 21:5, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." You and I are being made new right now, Spiritual Israelite. We both have a long way to go, obviously... <smile> ...but we are being refined by this fire ~ our God is a consuming fire ~ right now. Another great hymn, How Firm a Foundation, comes to mind, especially this verse:

“When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
the flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.”

You see?

Continued...

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you're still replying, so I think here, SI, maaaaaaaaaybe, just maybe, you're lying. <smile>

You didn't think this one through very carefully, PS. If I'm lying about not caring because I replied to you, then that would mean you were lying about not caring by replying to me. So, are you also going to claim that you think you were lying since you replied to me or are you going to admit that your reasoning here is flawed?

I never said I think I know you, SI, or that I know you.

You don't have to say it specifically. Your words imply it.

But I can discern some things about you from what you say and how you say it, and I'm sure the same is true for you regarding me. But hey, spin away; you're just kind of heaping coals on your own head, it seems to me.

LOL. Go ahead and think you what you want. I don't care. Truly. You should think twice about accusing me of lying about that. <big smile>

Even by your reaction here, yes, you're revealing at least a little something about yourself. I get it; you don't like it, and don't want to admit it, even to yourself. I'd suggest paying attention to that feeling deep in your gut right now, and maybe do a little self-introspection... but do it for yourself, of course, not for me.

LOL. Okay, Dr. PinSeeker. LOL. I am literally laughing out loud right now. I feel like I'm stealing by getting the entertainment that you provide me for free.

Hmmm. Okay. <smile>

<smile>

My expectations are... preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty highhhhhhhhhhhh.... <smile>

Yeah, all that golf you're planning to play really raises the bar. <smile>

See, I don't disagree with this, SI, but I think we can see that from Adam's and Eve's life before the Fall, we will be in creation ~ but creation made new... perfect, actually, without sin... and Jesus will be here with us, and there will indeed be a life to be lived. I'm sure you know that in Genesis 2, we read that God put Adam in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it (Genesis 2:15), and from that I say we can discern that in eternity, after the earth is made new, there will be work to do. So again, I say we will do a lot of the stuff we do now, but everything will be infinitely more enjoyable, and there will be no sin in any of it. Everything we do will be in perfect praise of the living God. Even... possibly... a good round of golf. <smile> If we so choose. <smile>


Yeah, I disagree that there will be no sun. <smile>

Yeah, I noticed that when you told me that. <smile>

Which I think you could tell from my last post.

Yeah. So, hey, should we just repeat things that we've already said over and over again? Sound fun? Or should we try to wrap this up?

You are.


No, that's not what I said, SI. That's not what I said. I don't... think... I ever said I think you take anything too seriously... except yourself. <smile> Which... seems evident to me both in what you say and how you say it. And like I said, I see it in your interactions with others on this board occasionally, too; it's not just with me.

This is such a waste of time at this point. You deny that you say what I think you're saying and vice versa. So, we're not on the same page, which makes this discussion just ridiculous. Let's get this wrapped up so we both stop wasting our time.

True and true. But the first part of that, on the question of time in eternity... Based on what you have said and how you have said it ~ and how... vociferously... you have argued against the idea of it... I mean, yeah, it does matter to you. Or... maybe you just want (maybe a little too pridefully) to be right. <smile>

LOL.I can say the same to you. How is it that it matters a great deal to me just because I'm talking about this to you or I just want to be right, but somehow that doesn't apply to you when you are also making your own arguments? Ridiculous. You are so hypocritical sometimes.

Ahhhh, 'burned up and dissolved'... Well, I mean, I think I know the answer to this, because I think we're on the same page, but think about what John says in Revelation 20. I think you and I agree about the lake of fire, there, and unbelievers will be thrown into it. Yeah? I think Peter is speaking in the same sense, there...

No, we're not on the same page. The context is different. 2 Peter 3:10-12 is talking about physical fire burning things up and dissolving things, including on the earth. That has nothing to do with the lake of fire which relates to the judgment that will occur after the physical destruction occur when Jesus returns.

Let me put it this way. You are trying to equate what is described in Revelatoin 20:9, which is physical fire coming down upon the earth and physically destroying living unbelievers on the earth, with what is described in Revelation 20:15, which is symbolic fire that those whose names are not written in the book of life will experience. But, they are not the same thing.

Or really more in the same sense as what Malachi says in Malachi 3.... "(the Lord) will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord." And again, in Revelation 21:5, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." You and I are being made new right now, Spiritual Israelite. We both have a long way to go, obviously... <smile> ...but we are being refined by this fire ~ our God is a consuming fire ~ right now. Another great hymn, How Firm a Foundation, comes to mind, especially this verse:

“When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
the flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.”

You see?

Continued...

No, I don't see how this relates to 2 Peter 3:10-12 at all because that passage is talking about literal, physical fire that will literally burn things up and dissolve things. Peter describes in detail the "sudden destruction" from which those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape" that Paul said would occur on the day the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Do you not think that Jesus will be physically destroying unbelievers on the day He returns? If not, then what exactly do you see happening on that day?

Continued? <sigh>

 

[PinSeeker]

Being an Amill does not mean you believe every single word in the book is symbolic.

Agreed. But what we were specifically talking about is. <smile> But... we can agree to disagree on that, too. <smile>

LOL. Here's you proving once again that you don't know me.

I never said I knew you. But I can tell some things about you.

I'm just confident that what I believe is correct.

Okay, well, so am I. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But you seem to be ~ or get ~ mad at anybody who disagrees with you, because ~ I think...

• you feel like they're telling you you're stupid for thinking that. And some here probably are, but not me. <smile>
• or... you just think or feel they're making you look that way. Which, again, some here probably are, but not me... but it may be just a you thing. <smile>.

I don't have to be akcnowledged as right and win every argument. That's your false perception of me.

Hmmmmm. Okay. <smile> Maybe you just have to get the last word, and that then means you won. <smile>

There's no log there.

LOL! "All these things I have done from my youth"... LOL! <smile>

I know a log couldn't fit in my eye. Oh, there's me being woodenly literal again. <wink> <wink>

LOOK AT THAT! A little humor! Good for you, SI!!! <smile>

What did I do that could be compared to taking the Lord's name in vain?

Sin is sin, SI. It's all really bad (to put it mildly).

As if you aren't ever nasty?

I have never been nasty on this board. I take care not to. Some of the things you've said to others on this board have been nasty.

Do you think each time you put <smile> it cancels out when you're nasty? You're a bit lacking in self awareness.

Whenever and wherever you think me to be nasty, call me on it.

On a forum like this anything you think you are seeing on a personal level can be misconstrued.

What you say and how you say it says some things about you, SI. That's true of all of us here.

Trust me, you don't know me at all.

Yet again, I never said I did. But... well, we can probably both discern some small things about each other. To think otherwise is, well, kind of silly, really. I mean hey, you can tell some things about Davy from a lot of the things he says, right? You caaaaaaaaannnnn <smile>

Different than what you apparently think of me, for sure.

I don't think anything, really "of you." But I can discern some things about you from what you have said and how you have said it. Ah, I'm remembering Al Franken on Saturday Night Live, and his character Stuart Smalley:

"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt!" <smile>

And maybe hearing those distant strains of The Boxer, by Simon and Garfunkel in 1968: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest... mm-mm-mmmmm..." <smile>

But, if I refer to Amills generally, you say I'm talking about all Amills. I see how it is.

I can't remember who it was now... Davidpt, I think... but you said, referring to Amills ~ more than once ~ "we believe" and "we claim." And in doing so, you were presumably speaking for all Amills... because you didn't say, "some (or most) of us believe" or "some (or most) of us claim." So maybe you meant differently from what you actually said, but... well, what you said was what you said.

I couldn't care less if you believe that or not. I know otherwise. People who have read many of my posts know that I inject humor into my posts fairly often.

Good for you.

Yes, you do, as your discussions with me prove. But, hey, just keep believing that if you want. It doesn't matter.

Oh no. You think the same of me as what I think of you. How can I ever recover? I'm devastated.

<chuckles>

Mostly frustrating ones when it comes to golf. <smile>

If you only look in the wrong places, yes. <smile>

I think it will be far, far better than what you think.

I think you think far, far too little of what I think about it. <smile>

You seem to think that you can imagine how it will be...

No, all I said was that we can get some small idea about it from the life of Adam and Eve before the Fall.

...I believe we can't imagine how it will be at all because our minds are not currently capable of it.

Yes, it will be far better than we can even imagine right now. Agreed. I can't really imagine a world absolutely without sin. Yes, we agree on that. But... <smile>

And, in my view, you won't have to worry about the sun getting in your eyes or burning you if you are playing golf. If I'm right about there being no sun and you're right about there being perfect golf courses , then there's an extra bonus for you to look foward to in eternity. If you happen to be right about that, I will enjoy hitting a hole-in-one on every hole.


But, I'm too serious to laugh, right? Surely, you must be mistaken to think I would ever laugh about anything.



This was your reactiong to not having golf in eternity. That seems more like how it will be for unbelievers. I guess you better reallly hope there is golf on the new earth or you will feel like you're in the lake of fire. <not being serious>

Grace and peace to you, SI.