The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[Dan Clarkston]

It's not completely over for one's soul at death of the flesh.

Actually it is... one's fate is sealed when they leave their body and they either go south or north.

Once one leaves this world a sinner, there is no further opportunity for salvation unless one believes the UN-biblical demonic teachings of the catholic cult and whoever else believes the satanic lie of purgentory

You failed to include what the Psalms 37 Scripture declares, showing that you are actually the one skirting the Scriptures about the future "second death" of perdition into the "lake of fire". Even the Rev.14 example says it is the SMOKE of their torment that rises forever, which can mean 'after the fact' of their destruction, like ashes where there is nothing left to burn. God's Word declares that the devil will be turned to ashes by being cast into the future "lake of fire", have you realized that Scripture yet?

Yeah, lots of folks are believing satan's lie of annihilationism due to choosing to not accept the whole counsel of God which is why the Holy Spirit turns them over to a reprobate mind.... that's what happens to those that call Jesus Christ a liar!

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11..... only those listening to satan think annihilationism is true

 

[Davy]

Actually it is... one's fate is sealed when they leave their body and they either go south or north.

Once one leaves this world a sinner, there is no further opportunity for salvation unless one believes the UN-biblical demonic teachings of the catholic cult and whoever else believes the satanic lie of purgentory

That is NOT... what The Bible teaches. If it were then there would be no reason for the Revelation 20:12 verse....

Rev 20:11-12
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
KJV

IF... those of the "first resurrection" ONLY... are saved by Christ, then why later on is that Book of Life opened to see if any names are written in it at that point just prior to the "second death"??

It is because this... is the purpose for that "thousand years" reign that starts at Christ's future return, to preach The Gospel to those who have not yet heard. And those of the unsaved nations that believe, will have their names written in that Book of Life when it is checked one final time AFTER the "thousand years". This is why Rev.20:5 says the dead 'lived not again untill...', meaning SOME of those spiritually dead will convert to Jesus Christ during... that "thousand years" reign.

But I understand why you instead wrongly think all the unsaved perish on the day of Christ's future return, because that is what man's false Amill theory pushes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh.... I get the idea by Paul about death, which is pretty much what you explained, being 'born again' vs. being subject to the "second death" of perdition in the future "lake of fire". It's this "second death" idea that I was referring to, because flesh death is what most think Paul was referring when he was pointing to the "second death". It's not completely over for one's soul at death of the flesh.



You failed to include what the Psalms 37 Scripture declares, showing that you are actually the one skirting the Scriptures about the future "second death" of perdition into the "lake of fire". Even the Rev.14 example says it is the SMOKE of their torment that rises forever, which can mean 'after the fact' of their destruction, like ashes where there is nothing left to burn. God's Word declares that the devil will be turned to ashes by being cast into the future "lake of fire", have you realized that Scripture yet?

It does not say "that the devil will be turned to ashes by being cast into the future "lake of fire". Your belief in annihilation is false. Read what the text actually says.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It indicates that the devil "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" which is far different than being turned to ashes. That is how Revelation 14:11 should be understood as well. It's not talking about the smoke rising forever, it's talking about unbelievers being tormented forever just like the devil will be. You are continually trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The above reveals just how uneducated some Amills are....

One of the main doctrines of FUTURISM is belief in a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. That theory I do NOT believe. I am Post-trib.

FUTURISM does NOT ... mean someone who is Premill.

A post-trib premill can be a futurist. You are very ignorant. You are conflating pre-trib dispensationalism with futurism. Pre-trib is just one variation of futurism, so there is not just one variation of futurism. Similar to how there are multiple variations of preterism (full and partial). Educate yourself and stop being so naive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually it is... one's fate is sealed when they leave their body and they either go south or north.

Once one leaves this world a sinner, there is no further opportunity for salvation unless one believes the UN-biblical demonic teachings of the catholic cult and whoever else believes the satanic lie of purgentory





Yeah, lots of folks are believing satan's lie of annihilationism due to choosing to not accept the whole counsel of God which is why the Holy Spirit turns them over to a reprobate mind.... that's what happens to those that call Jesus Christ a liar! View attachment 59235

Jesus says those that go to hell will burn in fire that shall NOT be quenched into everlasting punishment

Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Texts like Jude 6, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, and Matthew 25:30, and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 show that darkness signifies a state of deprivation and distress, not of destruction in the sense of ceasing to exist. Only those who exist can weep and gnash their teeth, as those banished into the darkness are said to do. Luke 16:22–24 shows that fire signifies continued existence in pain as Revelation 14:10 with 19:20 and 20:10, and Matthew 13:42, 50, confirm this.

Another good case against annihilationism is ”And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” in Rev. 14:11..... only those listening to satan think annihilationism is true View attachment 59237

Agree. Satan would like nothing more than for Christians to believe in annihilationism because it hinders evangelism. What do those Christians say to unbelievers who also believe in annihilationism? They think this life is all there is. So, what can Christians who believe in annihilation tell those people? That if they don't repent and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior they will suffer the fate that they already believe they will experience and have already accepted? It will not motivate them to repent if you tell them that what they expect to happen to them when they die is correct. But, if they are taught the truth that if they don't repent and accept Christ they will experience torment forever, that will definitely make them think harder and can help motivate them to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

That is NOT... what The Bible teaches. If it were then there would be no reason for the Revelation 20:12 verse....

The Bible does not teach that after you die.... you can still get saved.

Scripture twisting always leads to false doctrine dude... the smart ones REPENT and get right with the Lord... the slow ones get the devil's reward in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Exactly... and those people that dies not being in right standing with the Lord get the same treatment their father the devil and his demons get.

satan would like nothing more than for Christians to believe in annihilationism because it hinders evangelism.

And that's exactly why this doctrine of demons has become so popular in the past few years

Sinners out in the world hearing about Jesus and the gospel and are convicted of their sin and are thinking about getting saved.... then they hear some nutjob false teacher come along and talk about annihilationism, so they decide to believe that and think they shouldn't bother getting saved since they believe the satanic lie that they'll just cease to exist and not go to hell.

All these false doctrines coming out in the last days are all geared towards one thing... turning people away from the Lord so they end up in hell, and this includes those teaching the false doctrines since they refuse to REPENT for walking in agreement with the devil as they reject the Word of the Lord. Sad.

 

[PinSeeker]

The above reveals just how uneducated some Amills are....

<eye roll>

One of the main doctrines of FUTURISM is belief in a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory.

Yes, I'm well aware of this.

That theory I do NOT believe.

Good. I'm aware of that, too. <smile>

I am Post-trib.

Right. Post-tribulationism, in and of itself, is good. Yes, Christ will return after the tribulation; we agree on that.

However, you are also a pre-millennialist, and as such, you believe that after this period of tribulation and Christ's return, He will rule the earth 1,000 years... that the millennium of Revelation 20 will begin only when/after Christ returns. I get it. <smile> This is a misunderstanding of both:

a.) when the period of tribulation is (you believe it is yet future)​

and​

b.) when the 1,000-year rule of Christ, the millennium of Revelation 20, is.​

You believe both are future... which makes you, Davy, a futurist. <smile>

FUTURISM does NOT ... mean someone who is Premill.

Not really, no, but all pre-mills are futurists. <smile>

Those who say so show their illiteracy of not only Bible Scripture, but also of Christian history.

Maybe and maybe not, but I'm not really saying what you say I'm saying... <smile> ...which is par for the course...

The 1st century Church fathers were ALL... Premillennialists, believing that Christ's "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 begins on the day of His return, which actually, is what is written in God's Word.

Well, as you know, John didn't actually write Revelation until the first century was almost over ~ about 95 A.D. If you are referring to any of the Apostles as "1st century Church fathers," Davy, Revelation 20 ~ the only place in the Bible where a "millennium" or "the thousand years" is mentioned ~ didn't exist yet. If you're referring to Paul or Peter or any of the other Apostles, the only thing we really know regarding what they thought of tribulation was what Jesus had said, namely that "...in the world you will have tribulation..." (John 16:33). Paul was very explicit in saying, "there will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek" (Romans 2:9), "...rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation" (Romans 12:12), and "through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (as recorded by Luke in Acts 14:22). I would submit that none of the apostles spoke of any future tribulation period beyond even the lives of those they were writing and speaking directly to. John even wrote at the outset of his Revelation that he was then their "brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus..." So obviously, John was saying ~ and the other Apostles were, too ~ that Jesus was reigning even then, and the tribulation was a current reality even then... and still is.

...Pre-trib Rapture theory did not begin until the 1800's in Great Britain. It was first preached in a Christian Church in the 1830's by John Nelson Darby.

Yes, I'm well aware of that.

And man's Amill theory didn't begin until the 2nd century A.D.

It may not have been actually called "amillennialism"... <smile> ...but that matters not. See above. <smile> As I said, the more correct term is "nunc-millennialism," the 'nunc' prefix meaning 'now,' indicating that the millennium is a current reality (rather than the 'a' prefix, which implies that there is no millennium).

As I also said, even just taking into account both Paul's and John's words that the tribulation was a current reality even then indicates conclusively and irrefutably... or should, anyway <smile> ...their thoughts on the tribulation, and even the millennium of Revelation 20, which was a term that only John ever used, and this was in a vision given to Him of Christ Himself. And as I said, John himself was the one who quoted Jesus Himself as saying, "...in the world you will have tribulation..." (John 16:33). And the writer of Hebrews says, in Hebrews 1:1-2, that "...in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..."

I say it's plainly obvious that the Apostles were nunc-millennialists (though obviously they had never heard the term)... <smile> ...and also not futurists. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

<eye roll>

<ear roll>

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

However, you are also a pre-millennialist, and as such, you believe that after this period of tribulation and Christ's return, He will rule the earth 1,000 years... that the millennium of Revelation 20 will begin only when/after Christ returns. I get it. <smile> This is a misunderstanding of both:

a.) when the period of tribulation is (you believe it is yet future)​

and​

b.) when the 1,000-year rule of Christ, the millennium of Revelation 20, is.​

You believe both are future... which makes you, Davy, a futurist. <smile>


Not really, no, but all pre-mills are futurists. <smile>

Yep. His denial of being a futurist is quite funny. <laugh>

 

[Davy]

The Bible does not teach that after you die.... you can still get saved. View attachment 59253

Scripture twisting always leads to false doctrine dude... the smart ones REPENT and get right with the Lord... the slow ones get the devil's reward in the lake of fire.

What you are thinking about is called a 'second chance' theory, which is from men, and is not what God's Word teaches. In the future Millennium, those who convert to Christ will never have had their FIRST CHANCE in this world to have heard The Gospel and believe.

Some wrongly believe the "dead" of Revelation 20:5 means they are resurrected after the 1,000 years, if one believes the 1,000 years is real at all. Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 that the "resurrection of condemnation" happens on the same day of His 2nd coming also. So why does Rev.20:5 say those "dead" "... lived not again until the thousand years were finished"?

And if those only of the "first resurrection" are the only ones saved in Christ, then why are those 'dead' judged after the 1,000 years by looking to see if any of their names are written in the Book of Life?? The 2nd inferred resurrection is one LIKE the 1st resurrection, which is unto Christ Jesus.

 

[Davidpt]

We claim that the judgment occurs right after He returns and the judgment occurs in eternity. It does not take place in the realm of time in heaven or on earth (see Rev 20:11).

Too bad Jesus doesn't claim that as well, in John 12:48, for instance.

Amils then believe eternity has a last day? Talk about something worthy of a LOL. As if eternity, IOW, outside of time, involves days, let alone a last day. As if eternity can somehow end rather than continue forever.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

If Amils take this to be involving the GWTJ, that means you are interpreting the last day as follows---He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in eternity. IOW, if you are correct, apparently Jesus lied to us here since He said He will do this in the last day, not in eternity instead.

Clearly, John 12:48 is involving something that takes place inside of time, not outside of time. Since everyone should already know, thus already agree, that the last day occurs in the realm of measurable time, not in the realm of eternity where time is not measurable. Once again, there is no last day in eternity. Because if there is, this would obviously mean eternity ends eventually, rather than continues forever.

Are you going to move the goal post and now claim, keeping in mind, you being an Amil and all, that John 12:48 doesn't involve Revelation 20:11-15 after all?

 

[Davy]

Too bad Jesus doesn't claim that as well, in John 12:48, for instance.

Amils then believe eternity has a last day? Talk about something worthy of a LOL. As if eternity, IOW, outside of time, involves days, let alone a last day. As if eternity can somehow end rather than continue forever.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

If Amils take this to be involving the GWTJ, that means you are interpreting the last day as follows---He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in eternity. IOW, if you are correct, apparently Jesus lied to us here since He said He will do this in the last day, not in eternity instead.

Clearly, John 12:48 is involving something that takes place inside of time, not outside of time. Since everyone should already know, thus already agree, that the last day occurs in the realm of measurable time, not in the realm of eternity where time is not measurable. Once again, there is no last day in eternity. Because if there is, this would obviously mean eternity ends eventually, rather than continues forever.

Are you going to move the goal post and now claim, keeping in mind, you being an Amil and all, that John 12:48 doesn't involve Revelation 20:11-15 after all?

And by that you PROVE that Christ's "thousand years" reign of the future is STILL not God's Eternity of the future new heavens and a new earth.

 

[Davidpt]

And by that you PROVE that Christ's "thousand years" reign of the future is STILL not God's Eternity of the future new heavens and a new earth.

Somehow I think your point likely has to do with a thread I started sometime ago involving the NHNE and the the thousand years being the first thousand years of the never ending NHNE.

 

[Davy]

Somehow I think your point likely has to do with a thread I started sometime ago involving the NHNE and the the thousand years being the first thousand years of the never ending NHNE.

No, I'm still on the subject of disproving men's Amill theories.

 

[Davidpt]

No, I'm still on the subject of disproving men's Amill theories.

I tend to think that Amils mean by eternity is simply this, outside of time. Which then doesn't have to involve the NHNE since outside of time is already relevant right now except we are not in the NHNE yet. But even so, assuming Amils are interpreting it in that manner, it still contradicts what Jesus said in John 12:48. No way can outside of time have a last day since days, especially in a literal sense contradicts outside of time. In the last day means within the realm of measurable time, not outside of time. And Amils can't seem to grasp something as simplistic as this. Who but Amils would conflate a last day with outside of time, as if they are one and the same thing?

 

[Davy]

I tend to think that Amils mean by eternity is simply this, outside of time. Which then doesn't have to involve the NHNE since outside of time is already relevant right now except we are not in the NHNE yet. But even so, assuming Amils are interpreting it in that manner, it still contradicts what Jesus said in John 12:48. No way can outside of time have a last day since days, especially in a literal sense contradicts outside of time. In the last day means within the realm of measurable time, not outside of time. And Amils can't seem to grasp something as simplistic as this. Who but Amils would conflate a last day with outside of time, as if they are one and the same thing?

Yes, I understood what you wrote about that 'outside of time' in your earlier post.

John 6:40 also reveals, in Jesus' words, that the future resurrection also will occur on the "last day". That means on the day of His future 2nd coming, which is also what Apostle Paul revealed in the 1 Thessalonians 4:16 verse about the 'asleep' saints must be raised first when Jesus comes.

That "last day" has to be part of this present world time, like you are saying.

I include... Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect Church also as being 'within' this present world time.

Any event that is NOT part of God's future Eternity of a new heavens and a new earth, has to be of this present world time. Because Revelation 20 reveals the wicked are NOT destroyed at the "second death" UNTIL that "thousand years" of that Chapter is over, that also reveals that "thousand years" reign by Christ will be literal, because as long as the wicked exist, it means God's Eternity of a new heavens and a new earth is not manifest yet then. The wicked will not see God's Eternity.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Too bad Jesus doesn't claim that as well, in John 12:48, for instance.

Amils then believe eternity has a last day? Talk about something worthy of a LOL.

Almost everything you say is worthy of a LOL. Once the last day arrives, then the judgment will occur after that. What is hard to understand about that?

Does this look like the judgment occurs within the realm of time when it indicates it will not take place either on earth or in heaven?

Revelation 20:11 hen I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

You're never taking all of scripture into account. You cherry pick certain scriptures and draw conclusions from them that contradict other scriptures. You're reckless with scripture just like Davy.

If you think the judgment that will occur at the last day will occur within the realm of time, then tell me about how long you think it will take. I guess you think that a good portion of the thousand years will consist of people standing before Jesus to be judged? Talk about LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I tend to think that Amils mean by eternity is simply this, outside of time. Which then doesn't have to involve the NHNE since outside of time is already relevant right now except we are not in the NHNE yet. But even so, assuming Amils are interpreting it in that manner, it still contradicts what Jesus said in John 12:48. No way can outside of time have a last day since days, especially in a literal sense contradicts outside of time. In the last day means within the realm of measurable time, not outside of time. And Amils can't seem to grasp something as simplistic as this. Who but Amils would conflate a last day with outside of time, as if they are one and the same thing?

You Premils never understand what Amils believe, so you constantly misrepresent what we believe. Why not make more of an effort to understand what we believe so that you stop looking so ignorant?

What we believe is that not the judgment occurs on the last day as if it occurs within the realm of time. Revelation 20:11 makes it clear that that it will not occur on earth or in heaven, so that strongly suggests that it won't occur in the realm of time. So, what we believe is that once the last day arrives, Jesus will come at some point on that day and then the resurrection of the dead occurs and the wicked are destroyed and such, but then eternity is ushered in and the judgment occurs. Even with the judgment occurring at that point it can still be said that it will occur at the last day because it will occur right after Jesus comes on the last day. Can Premils like you grap something as simplistic as this or are you going to just continue misrepresenting Amil as if you know what we believe better than we do?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I understood what you wrote about that 'outside of time' in your earlier post.

John 6:40 also reveals, in Jesus' words, that the future resurrection also will occur on the "last day". That means on the day of His future 2nd coming, which is also what Apostle Paul revealed in the 1 Thessalonians 4:16 verse about the 'asleep' saints must be raised first when Jesus comes.

That "last day" has to be part of this present world time, like you are saying.

I include... Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect Church also as being 'within' this present world time.

Any event that is NOT part of God's future Eternity of a new heavens and a new earth, has to be of this present world time. Because Revelation 20 reveals the wicked are NOT destroyed at the "second death" UNTIL that "thousand years" of that Chapter is over, that also reveals that "thousand years" reign by Christ will be literal, because as long as the wicked exist, it means God's Eternity of a new heavens and a new earth is not manifest yet then. The wicked will not see God's Eternity.

What do you think, that the judgment that occurs at the last day will be completed in 24 hours? Billions of people judged within 24 hours? Really? Are you even thinking? You guys believe things that are not even within reason.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What you are thinking about is called a 'second chance' theory, which is from men, and is not what God's Word teaches. In the future Millennium, those who convert to Christ will never have had their FIRST CHANCE in this world to have heard The Gospel and believe.

Scripture never teaches that everyone has to be given the chance to hear the gospel and believe. Those who didn't hear the gospel will be judged based on the criteria that Paul talks about in Romans 1 and 2 which means they will be judged based on what they did know. As Paul explained, no one has any excuse for not believing in God and glorifying Him as God and being thankful to Him. So, those people will be judged by that standard.

Nowhere does scripture teach that people who hadn't heard the gospel during their lives will be resurrected and given a chance to hear the gospel. That's ludicrous. You're making that up since scripture clearly never teaches such a thing. Instead, it teaches that once people die they then look forward to judgment (Hebrews 9:28). You get once chance in life and, whether you admit or not, you are trying to promote a second chance theory here.