The sacrifice
- Thread starter Avagabond
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Good answer, next question, was he ever equal to God?
Was he the word of God made flesh?
Reason for question, when did he finally become aware of The Fathers fuel plan?
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Fair question. What did Jesus know, and when did he know it?
Jesus gave hints that he knew he was "to give his life as a ransom for many". The Jonah allusion ("3 days in the belly of the earth") indicated he knew resurrection was in the plan. The "Son of Man coming on the clouds with great glory" allusion to Daniel's vision hints that he knew the promise he would be made ruler. But he still had to trust his Father's promises.
Lifelong_sinner
Well-Known Member
they are not one and the same, they are two people of the Trinity. The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, all God, yet 3 distinct persons who are co-equal, co-existant, and co-powerful.
Paul Christensen
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Then you still have one to answer.
If my question offend you, perhaps ignoring me would be best.
Even Jesus as a child sat at the feet of the scribes and Pharisees asking many questions.
@Lambano The Lord Jesus is indeed omniscient and Hebrews 9.14 says He 'by the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God'.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. (Mark13:32)
Not the first time Jesus surprised me. ;)
I think the idea is, voluntary subjection and obedience to the Father's will, even while He is equal with God.
Philippians 2 shows both these aspects about the Lord Jesus.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I haven't got Jesus figured out. Whenever I think I do, the "it wasn't what I thought" principle kicks in.
@Lambano
What I meant was, in Philippians 2, Paul says BOTH that He 'thought it not robbery to be equal with God' AND that He 'made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant' etc.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
NASB's "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" is probably the more sound translation. In either case, how does "taking the form of a servant" play out in real life? What capabilities did Jesus have, and what didn't he have?
He is truly human - yet without sin - and truly God. The mystery of the Incarnation, the Word Who became flesh (John 1.14).
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Paul himself in 1 Timothy 3.16 says, 'Great is the mystery of Godliness', and goes on to say, 'God was manifested in the flesh'.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
For some background as to how other translations render that verse and the manuscripts which support each one, check out NETBible's Translators' note 24 at the link below:
NETBible: 1 Timothy 3
Like I said, Jesus is complicated, and so is the history of what we believe about him.
And now I'll let you get in the last word. I promise. Good night, my brother. :)
The Incarnation is truly glorious, and Scriptural...and God and Man were perfectly involved at the Cross...
Jesus was fully human, yes, but he was also fully God even if his devine qualities were limited.
So for him aday of torment was far more than anything a mere man would experience.
Remember ' for the Lord a day is the same as a thousand years ! '
Jesus's suffering was vastly greater than we can imagine.
He bore ALL our sin, All our guilt, All our shame and endured All our punishment.
I don't know if the original poster is still reading this forum, but I want to say something anyway.
As a fellow agnostic, I understand the first question, and thought of it many times in the past. "What's the big deal; He's not really dying." Then I thought of what many of the later posters said. It's a lot of pain, and He thought of it and dreaded it the way we would. If we had to have, for example, surgery without an anesthetic, no matter what good purpose it would serve, we would be horrified at the prospect.
The later questions and answers are beyond my comprehension so far. In general, where I've arrived in my thinking is that when there's something that puzzles me, I keep reading the Bible in hopes that it's clarified later. As for the Trinity, I don't have much trouble just accepting it that it can be true, regardless of whether I can totally understand it. I don't even fully understand how my car works.
As a fellow agnostic, I understand the first question, and thought of it many times in the past. "What's the big deal; He's not really dying." Then I thought of what many of the later posters said. It's a lot of pain, and He thought of it and dreaded it the way we would. If we had to have, for example, surgery without an anesthetic, no matter what good purpose it would serve, we would be horrified at the prospect.
The later questions and answers are beyond my comprehension so far. In general, where I've arrived in my thinking is that when there's something that puzzles me, I keep reading the Bible in hopes that it's clarified later. As for the Trinity, I don't have much trouble just accepting it that it can be true, regardless of whether I can totally understand it. I don't even fully understand how my car works.
