The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Behold]

Men have the Promise of Salvation.....IF, they believe, WHEN, they die, they BECOME SAVED ON THE DAY OF THEIR DEATH...

You are born again on Earth.
You become a Son of God, on Earth.
You become the "temple of the Holy Spirit" on Earth.

If you can't understand that ALL this is Salvation ...proven......and you are to "work out your salvation" on earth, then God help you to see it.

Ive not met anyone who believes that working out your salvation, as Paul teaches, happens after you die.
You own the trademark for that weird religion., tho im sure you were taught it by heretics.
As that is what happens when you are become the victim of this verse...
Hebrews 13:9

 

[Taken]

You are born again on Earth.
You become a Son of God, on Earth.
You become the "temple of the Holy Spirit" on Earth.

If you can't understand that ALL this is Salvation ...proven......and you are to "work out your salvation" on earth, then God help you to see it.

Ive not met anyone who believes that working out your salvation, as Paul teaches, happens after you die.
You own the trademark for that weird religion., tho im sure you were taught it by heretics.
As that is what happens when you are become the victim of this verse...
Hebrews 13:9

Salvation is only received AFTER a death occurs.
...physical death
OR
...crucified with Christ

So, no NOT ALL Saved “work out their Salvation”.

Working out ones “Salvation” applies to the Crucified with Christ.
It is not “WORKING” to receive Salvation, it is rather “working” on having a “MIND” LIKE Christ.
Salvation specifically concerns Restoration of the soul.
Born Again specifically concerns Quickening of the Spirit.
^^ neither of those deals with the MIND thoughts, but rather the HEART thoughts.
A man working out his Salvation is one training his MIND to be subjected to his (new) Heart’s thought, and his (new, born again) spirit within his heart.

 

[farouk]

The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.
OP^

Salvation IS a PROMISED Gift:
Salvation IS a Promised Gift RECEIVED unto a Believer ON THE DAY that Believer Dies.

Don’t BELIEVE on the day you DIE...you rejected the Promised Gift, therefore Forfeited your Gift.

Belief in the Lord God IS the paramount highlight to whit a person WHO does so Believe in the Lord God ON the day of that persons death;
THAT PERSON SHALL BE SAVED ON THAT DAY he DIES.

The person HAS accomplished the ONE WORKS Gods Requires to RECEIVE Gods Gift of SALVATION.

That which IS satisfactory TO God, makes a mans complaints, accusations, additions, requirements, moot.

John 6:
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Luke 23:
[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

@Taken Faith is indeed a work of God; I don't see why some ppl struggle with John 6............

 

[BarneyFife]

Well, Romans 8 IS a great chapter with a lot of interrelated, encouraging and strengthening doctrine...........

.
.
Just like Acts 2.42, right?
.
.

 

[BarneyFife]

@Taken Faith is indeed a work of God; I don't see why some ppl struggle with John 6............

.
.
Well, it does have 71 verses, so...

Not sure folks are gonna have any idea what you're talkin' about, Brother F.
.
.

 

[APAK]

The uncommitted and unbeliever

Hebrews 3:7-19 – Again the speaker is addressing mixed company, of committed believers, seekers and unbelievers.

It’s warning to all unbelievers and seekers to accept God’s calling with a contrite and trusting heart. To be saved! And in this case it addresses the Judahite, to believe in Christ through grace, over faith in Moses and the Law.

It is also yet another example of a faithless dominating free-willed human soul who can never be saved, absent of the Spirit of God. A warning to all unbelievers and seekers to accept God’s calling.

This person is presented with the calling of God to believe in Him and his Son, as the grace offered to salvation. To then if accepted, to open and cultivate this human heart, ready for regeneration. This person refuses to trust and lacks faith from a self-centered heart and will. They reject him and thus depart in their heart and mind from God, the source of their salvation (verse 12). A warning to all unbelievers to accept God’s offering when he calls.

The person is called although not chosen, of own demise.

It speaks to when the Holy Spirit calls, and it is rejected by the one with a stone and evil heart of unbelief, a non-believer, who can never enter the Rest of Christ and become truly saved into God’s Rest of his Kingdom. This person depends on their own will to decide if, how and when to seek or not to seek God's Rest, and then they fail, never reaching their goal, and die.

The backdrop of these verses is the Israelites wandering in the wilderness heading towards the Promised land, God’s ‘Physical Rest.’ Also the fact that Yahshua is greater than Moses as our high priest. To place our faith solely in him for the forgiveness of sin. Many were still mixing grace with the Law, and not realizing that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient for forgiveness of sin.

Only the faithful in heart enter God’s Rest in Christ Yahshua. They are truly the saved ones who are faithful until the end of their lives. They have learned as they grow to yield their free-will and rely on their sanctifying walk in and with the divine Spirits of the Father and Son.

A believer can never have an evil and unbelieving heart if they are TRULY saved with the mark and seal of the Spirit of God.

Blessings..

 

[Behold]

Salvation is only received AFTER a death occurs.
...physical death
OR
...crucified with Christ

You can't "work out your Salvation", as Paul said, if you have to wait until you die to get it.
So, i hope you can think, and realize this, as its pretty simple to understand.

 

[mailmandan]

You can't "work out your Salvation", as Paul said, if you have to wait until you die to get it.
So, i hope you can think, and realize this, as its pretty simple to understand.

There are 3 tenses to salvation.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Working out (and not working for) our salvation is in regards to the 2nd tense.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)

2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)

3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Of course these are the words of men. None of these phrases appear in the Bible.

Only this:

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” (Romans 5:8-9)

Yet we are still warned in the same letter to not be:

“…highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” (Romans 11:20-21)

 

[Behold]

2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification)

Here is the best way to explain what you wrote.

"we are being saved from the Power of sin"..

Why and How?

Why?..... because the born again "are no longer under the LAW".... as "the LAW is the power of SIN"... so, when you are FREED by "the righteousness of God in Christ", having BECOME this, as a "new Creation in Christ'..... then "Christ has FREED YOU from the CURSE OF THE LAW".....and now the born again exist "not under the Law, but UNDER GRACE".

Grace is the <>RULES<> regarding the Kingdom of God.

How ? ..To be born again is to exist >Spiritually" as ""ONE WITH GOD""= in the Kingdom of God, "having been Translated from darkness....TO LIGHT"...and this spiritual Kingdom where the born again now EXIST >Spiritually"> has no LAW or COMMANDMENTS in it...which is why the born again are FREED from those situations... and are become..
= "As JESUS IS>......so are the born again.......IN THIS WORLD"...

This is why the born again exist in the world but not : "OF it."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

PS: Ephesians 2.8-9; Hebrews 11: "by faith"; "by faith"....

Hebrews 11:24-26 says,
[24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; [25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; [26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

 

[APAK]

Hebrews 4: Verses 1 – 13 - Fear and Rest for the believer and none for the unbeliever

This message is a similar one found in Hebrews 3:7-19 as in a previous post - The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

The two main operative words are Fear and Rest, and both apply to the believer and unbeliever in very different ways.

Again the speaker's audience are Judahites of different spiritual or religious states.

The believer fears God as a deep reverence for him and what he has done for their spiritual life. The believer is convinced of the real effects of sin that causes permanent death as it now has no power over their lives. The unbeliever on the other hand has no fear of God as he does not know him and therefore sin does not register in the conscience as something to be taken seriously.

Eventhough the unbeliever is convicted of sin, as with a believer, at times, sin rules their heart - they are a slave to it.

The believer is in God's rest whilst the unbeliever is part of the living dead, outside of the Spirit of divine life.

In verse 2 is says that the unbeliever does not benefit from the gospel of grace as it does not fit their current subject of faith, their faith in the Law (part of the Judahite religion), a form of legalism and of human free-will of self-opportunistic faith.

The believer enters the Rest of God as grace is given and accepted by faith from God.

In verse 7 the warning to all unbelievers is to accept the call of God with an open heart and not one of stone.

In verse 8: In some versions, the name “Joshua” here was mistranslated as “Jesus,” which makes it sound as if Jesus were in the Old Testament. The names “Jesus” and “Joshua” are the same in Hebrew and Greek, and the translators of the KJV, for example, confused the names. This is cleared up by reading the context, and every modern version we are aware of, including the New King James Version (NKJV), has the name “Joshua” in the verse, clearing up the misconception that somehow “Jesus” led the Israelites across the Jordan into Canaan.

Verses 6 and 11 - rejecting the call of God into the Kingdom is called disobedience.

Vere 12 - God knows and can see and read our heart by his living divine word, whether we are willing to accept his calling and be saved, or depart in disobedience with our precious ‘free’ self-will.

Verse 13 - The is no human being that can hide from God's word, his presence. He has the complete view of us at any time as we are all exposed and show our mind and intentions to and of him, and our lives, constantly. Our heart constantly reveals and gives a running account of who we are to God, to ourselves and to others.

Blessings...

 

[Taken]

You can't "work out your Salvation", as Paul said, if you have to wait until you die to get it.
So, i hope you can think, and realize this, as its pretty simple to understand.

First of all.....SALVATION given to OT faithful men was given them AFTER they bodily died. Old Covenant Promise, IF men believed ON the day they PHYSICALLY DIE...they would BE SAVED!

^ THAT has not changed!

HOWEVER...DID YOU MISS the entire “NEW COVENANT” ?
A NEW PROMISE? A “BETTER TESTAMENT”?

Men can GIVE THEIR LIFE unto death.....CRUCIFIED “WITH” Christ Jesus’ Body......and LIVE “IN” His Risen BODY, until, their own Body is Raised up in glory. (NEVER heard....”IN Christ”?
Didn’t KNOW what that means?)

Your physical flesh body is still alive...yet dead...yet the SIN in that body forgiven, Covered (with Gods internal Spirit, which is pure Light, that He can not SEE the forgiven SIN, IN your body, and neither does He remember what He has forgiven and sheds His Light on, and that body already, washed, set apart (sanctified), already justified (to BE risen,) WHEN the Lord calls His Church up to meet Him......BEFORE Gods great Tribulation, is sent down from Heaven UPON this World and all the Inhabitants OF this world, WHO....somehow missed the preaching of the Last 2,000 years...OF HOW to BECOME Converted, NOT subject to Gods Anger, Gods Wrath and Gods Tribulation...and themselves....Become Already Prepared and WITH God Forever.

Understanding Scripture with your Carnal Mind, is neither simple or advocated.

WHEN the Lord God, bestows HIS Gift:
Of Forgiveness, Of soul salvation, Of spirit quickening, Of circumcision of your Heart, Of His Seed, Of His Spirit IN You....ARE Converted;
Dead body, Saved soul, Quickened spirit!

OOPS....Conversion, does nothing to your Carnal Mind!
OOPS....your still have a Carnal Mind!
AND......OOPS...

Rom 8:
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

So what are YOU going to do about YOUR carnal mind?
Goal......IS TO: Have a MIND....LIKE CHRIST.

What KIND of Mind does Christ Have?
Christ HAS a MIND that is ALWAYS IN AGREEMENT with the THOUGHTS of His HEART.

HOW TO MAKE ones Carnal MIND, be in agreement with ones HEART’S Thoughts?

WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION....
MAKE YOUR MIND YIELD TO YOUR HEARTS THOUGHTS!

WHY is the Heart’s thoughts TRUMP over a man’s minds thoughts?
* Conversion...a Circumcised Heart...a New Heart...Receiving Gods SEED, A New BORN AGAIN spirit in your New Heart....Gods Spirit OF TRUTH, IN your new Heart...Gods TRUTH, feeding your new (spirit), Gods TRUTH...

When a Converted man MAKES his Carnal Mind Yield to the Thoughts of his Heart.......that mans Carnal Mind is Yielding to Gods TRUE WORD...

When a mans Heart and a mans Mind, are in agreement...THEN does that man HAVE a MIND LIKE CHRIST.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hebrews 4: Verses 1 – 13 - Fear and Rest for the believer and none for the unbeliever

This message is a similar one found in Hebrews 3:7-19 as in a previous post - The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

The two main operative words are Fear and Rest, and both apply to the believer and unbeliever in very different ways.

Again the speaker's audience are Judahites of different spiritual or religious states.

The believer fears God as a deep reverence for him and what he has done for their spiritual life. The believer is convinced of the real effects of sin that causes permanent death as it now has no power over their lives. The unbeliever on the other hand has no fear of God as he does not know him and therefore sin does not register in the conscience as something to be taken seriously.

Eventhough the unbeliever is convicted of sin, as with a believer, at times, sin rules their heart - they are a slave to it.

The believer is in God's rest whilst the unbeliever is part of the living dead, outside of the Spirit of divine life.

In verse 2 is says that the unbeliever does not benefit from the gospel of grace as it does not fit their current subject of faith, their faith in the Law (part of the Judahite religion), a form of legalism and of human free-will of self-opportunistic faith.

The believer enters the Rest of God as grace is given and accepted by faith from God.

In verse 7 the warning to all unbelievers is to accept the call of God with an open heart and not one of stone.

In verse 8: In some versions, the name “Joshua” here was mistranslated as “Jesus,” which makes it sound as if Jesus were in the Old Testament. The names “Jesus” and “Joshua” are the same in Hebrew and Greek, and the translators of the KJV, for example, confused the names. This is cleared up by reading the context, and every modern version we are aware of, including the New King James Version (NKJV), has the name “Joshua” in the verse, clearing up the misconception that somehow “Jesus” led the Israelites across the Jordan into Canaan.

Verses 6 and 11 - rejecting the call of God into the Kingdom is called disobedience.

Vere 12 - God knows and can see and read our heart by his living divine word, whether we are willing to accept his calling and be saved, or depart in disobedience with our precious ‘free’ self-will.

Verse 13 - The is no human being that can hide from God's word, his presence. He has the complete view of us at any time as we are all exposed and show our mind and intentions to and of him, and our lives, constantly. Our heart constantly reveals and gives a running account of who we are to God, to ourselves and to others.

Blessings...

This sounds like a nice Protestant Belief Alone Salvationist fantasy, but it simply is not the Bible (interpreted correctly), or the reality of how things truly are.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Most in your camp are either not aware of Titus 3:8 and Titus 3:14 or they simply don’t believe these verses at face value.

In your Protestant candy land fantasy you will just automatically do good works. But Titus was told to affirm constantly to other believers to be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and to maintain good works so that they be not unfruitful (Titus 3:14).

When was the last time you heard a sermon or pep talk to do good works for the Lord? Are they affirming constantly these things? No they are not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

.
.
I think it is referring to me.


.
.

So you believe you are…

“….always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.” ? (See: 2 Timothy 3:7).

So you believe you…

“…resist the truth:” ?

So you believe you are included in being among …

“men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.” ? (See 2 Timothy 3:8).

 

[APAK]

Hebrews 3: 6 and 14 redux for the unbeliever who wants to know who is the elect and the truly saved.....

(Heb 3:6) But Christ, as a Son over his own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope, remaining firm to the end.
(Heb 3:14) For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast to our original confidence, remaining firm to the end. (NEV)

In verses 6 and 14 it says that a genuine believer of sure election who is truly saved, becomes a close companion and shares in all that Christ offers as they retain at least the same fervor, confidence and faith that caused their initial positive response and acceptance of grace, and given by the Spirit. In other words those truly saved cannot be tricked into apostasy, ever.

These same verses do not infer in any way that a truly saved person can lose their salvation and suddenly become unsaved, with the departure of the Spirit that once indwelt within them as their permanent mark and seal of God.

There are those unbelievers who parrot these verses indicate the opposite is true. I wonder then if they also think that the truly saved who they claim can be unsaved by these two verses are also permitted to be restored to their former state and be resaved once their faith meets their standards?

These evil servants expose their own lack of faith and non-acceptance of the grace of God for salvation and desire others to share in their spiritual discomfort. They desire the truly saved to lose hope and their faith as they have none themselves.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hebrews 3: 6 and 14 redux for the unbeliever who wants to know who is the elect and the truly saved.....

(Heb 3:6) But Christ, as a Son over his own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope, remaining firm to the end.
(Heb 3:14) For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast to our original confidence, remaining firm to the end. (NEV)

In verses 6 and 14 it says that a genuine believer of sure election who is truly saved, becomes a close companion and shares in all that Christ offers as they retain at least the same fervor, confidence and faith that caused their initial positive response and acceptance of grace, and given by the Spirit. In other words those truly saved cannot be tricked into apostasy, ever.

These same verses do not infer in any way that a truly saved person can lose their salvation and suddenly become unsaved, with the departure of the Spirit that once indwelt within them as their permanent mark and seal of God.

There are those unbelievers who parrot these verses indicate the opposite is true. I wonder then if they also think that the truly saved who they claim can be unsaved by these two verses are also permitted to be restored to their former state and be resaved once their faith meets their standards?

These evil servants expose their own lack of faith and non-acceptance of the grace of God for salvation and desire others to share in their spiritual discomfort. They desire the truly saved to lose hope and their faith as they have none themselves.

This is silly. Hebrews 3:6, and Hebrews 3:14 uses the word “we” (Which include the author of Hebrews in the conversation who is a believer). So your attempt to undo these verses is not right. Then again, you won’t have to answer to me ultimately but the Lord one day (on how you changed the plain meaning of His Word because you did not like it).

 

[APAK]

This is silly. Hebrews 3:6, and Hebrews 3:14 uses the word “we” (Which include the author of Hebrews in the conversation who is a believer). So your attempt to undo these verses is not right. Then again, you won’t have to answer to me ultimately but the Lord one day (on how you changed the plain meaning of His Word because you did not like it).

Of course these verses use 'we.' We can all read the verses. They are supposed to say 'we,' and especially to include the speaker. This does not mean the usage of the 'we' connotes the same spiritual state as the speaker, right? You can see that right? The audience is still considered as the 'we' eventhough in reality we know they are not the same - some are seekers, believers and unbelievers.

You must know it is customary and the appropriate way to speak to a wide audience by using the word 'we' as the speaker wants to bring all his audience together as one group, in sincere hope, they are all as he, all true saved believers. He knows they are not of course. Nothing difficult to understand here.

You have to think also this way, how would the speaker actually know that his audience was all truly saved? Impossible feat!

So how am I undoing these verses again? Is there something in my post that does not conform to your own private meaning of these verses?

Well let me go on to the next set of verses in the book of Hebrews...later

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course these verses use 'we.' We can all read the verses. They are supposed to say 'we,' and especially to include the speaker. This does not mean the usage of the 'we' connotes the same spiritual state as the speaker, right? You can see that right? The audience is still considered as the 'we' eventhough in reality we know they are not the same - some are seekers, believers and unbelievers.

You must know it is customary and the appropriate way to speak to a wide audience by using the word 'we' as the speaker wants to bring all his audience together as one group, in sincere hope, they are all as he, all true saved believers. He knows they are not of course. Nothing difficult to understand here.

So how am I undoing these verses again? Is there something in my post that does not conform to your own private meaning of these verses?

Well let me go on to the next set of verses in the book of Hebrews...later

So you believe the author is referring to how he was once lost in the context? What passage in context gives you that silly idea?
Also, the context says this:

Hebrews 3:1
“Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,…”

In addition, the context is not dealing with Initial Salvation of how an unbeliever needs to be saved by the Messiah. It’s talking about how sin can harden a believer’s heart in departing from the living God. The Israelites later fell in wilderness due to sin (i.e. unbelief) is an example of their later departing God. Proof? They believed in putting the blood on the doorposts in the beginning. And… when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea by God parting the waters, they then later drank of that Rock, and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
“And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

It just seems like you are fighting with the text because you don’t like what it says.
Then again, this appears to be a mass hallucination or problem going on in the world of Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism.

 

[Cassandra]

BloodBought 1953 said: ↑
This guy Loves the Law—- There oughta be one in regard to Wasting so much valuable Computer Ink!......The poor guy actually thinks that people read these verbose and windy posts.....

Yes! so did David !
Psalm 119:97-102
.
97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.

99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.

101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word.

102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.

103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!