The golden calf and the Trinity

[101G]

2 Chr. 34:19 said: ↑
He is omniscient...He can become anything He wants-even a little lower than the angels

DNB said: Then He's not transcendent.
not true, that word "transcendent" is just a cover to advoid the truth. it means, 1. beyond or above the range of normal or merely physical human experience. 2. (of God) existing apart from and not subject to the limitations of the material universe.

to answer that one scripture, Matthew 19:26

PICJAG

 

[Cooper]

I got the idea of the Trinity from the Bible. I noticed the use of the plural regarding the calf and the fact that Aaron proclaimed a feast to the LORD and realized that this was speaking about the Trnity.


Each verse is describing the part that a different member of the Trinity played in creation. They both speak of the same God but of two different persons within the Godhead.


The explanation for the contradictions you cited is found in 1 Samuel 15:22,

Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
and to listen than the fat of rams.

God wants us to obey so we won't need to offer sacrifices, but when we disobey his justice and holiness require that we offer sacrifices to atone for our sins. The animal sacrifices were pictures of the sacrifice Jesus would make for out sins, so they are no longer needed.


Since Christ is God he already has equality with the Father so he had no need to grasp it.

I do not agree there is a need to offer sacrifice today unless you mean that we repent and apologise or make retribution. Jesus said in the sermon on the mount that if we had a dispute with a neighbour, we are to take it to a magistrate. I can show you at least three occasions, even in the Old Testament where God abhors burnt offerings.

 

[101G]

Each verse is describing the part that a different member of the Trinity played in creation. They both speak of the same God but of two different persons within the Godhead.

first thanks for the reply, second I cannot buy that and here's why, listen carefully.
Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

alone and by myself do not constitutes a "part", or more than one of anything. nor do "alone", or "by myself" describe two persons.

understand this what GOD is saying here, he, he, he, ONE PERSON created and MADE all things, else you have two CREATORS. see the ERROR now?

even the Lord JESUS as the ordinal LAST said "he" made all things, and he was speaking of himself as the ordinal "First". so any two persons is clearly eliminated. but thanks for the reply. now if you have something else difference please post it.

PICJAG

 

[CadyandZoe]

I got the idea of the Trinity from the Bible.

I know you did. The question is whether or not the account of Aaron's golden calf communicates that idea. Does the plural form of Elohim indicate a Trinity or something else? We are exploring this issue in this tread and so I am asking whether we shouldn't jump to conclusions.

 

[Cooper]

Genesis 1:26
So far as Old Testament passages are concerned, the following have a definite bearing on the Trinity. Genesis 1:26 quotes God (Elohim) as saying, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness” (NASB).

This first-person plural can hardly be a mere editorial or royal plural that refers to the speaker alone, for no such usage is demonstrable anywhere else in biblical Hebrew. Therefore, we must face the question of who are included in this “us” and “our.” It could hardly include the angels in consultation with God, for nowhere is it ever stated that man was created in the image of angels, only of God. Verse 27 then affirms: “And God [Elohim] created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them” (NASB).

God, the same God who spoke of Himself in the plural, now states that He created man in His image. In other words, the plural equals the singular. This can only be understood in terms of the Trinitarian nature of God. The one true God subsists in three Persons, Persons who are able to confer with one another and carry their plans into action together, without ceasing to be one God. For us who have been created in God’s image, this should not be too difficult to grasp; for there is a very definite sense in which we too are Trinitarian in nature. First Thessalonians 5:23 indicates this clearly enough: “Now may the God of peace sanctify you wholly, and may your entire spirit and soul and body be preserved without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” We often find ourselves engaged in a debate between our spirit, soul, and bodily nature as we grapple with a moral decision and are faced with a choice between the will of God and the desire of our self-seeking, flesh-pleasing nature.

Psalm 33:6 reads, “By the Word of Yahweh were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the Spirit of His mouth.” Here again we have the same involvement of all three Persons of the Trinity in the work of creation: the Father decrees, the Son as the Logos brings the Father’s decree into operation, and the Spirit imparts His life-giving dynamic to the whole process. Psalm 45:6 has already been quoted in connection with Hebrews 1:8: “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.” But 45:7 brings in the reference to a God who will bless this God who is the perfect King: “Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee with the oil of joy above Thy fellows” (NASB). The concept of God blessing God can only be understood in a Trinitarian sense. A Unitarian concept would make this passage unintelligible.

Isaiah 48:16 sets forth all three Persons in the work of redemptive revelation and action: “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret; from the time it took place [i.e., the deliverance of God’s people from captivity and bondage], I was there. And now the Lord Yahweh has sent Me, and His Spirit.” Here we have the God/man Redeemer speaking (the one who has just described Himself in v. l2 as “the First and the Last,”) and in v.13 as the one who “founded the earth and spread out the heavens.” He now says here in v.16 that He has been sent by the Lord Yahweh (which in this case must refer to God the Father) and by His Spirit (the Third Person of the Trinity). Conceivably “and His Spirit” could be linked up with “Me” as the object of “has sent,” but in the context of the Hebrew original here it gives the impression that His ruah (“Spirit”) is linked up with adonai YHWH (“Lord Yahweh”) as an added subject rather than an added object. At any rate, the Third Person is distinguished from either the First or the Second Persons.

Gleason Archer

 

[DNB]

Since Christ is God he already has equality with the Father so he had no need to grasp it.

You know very well that that is not the point of the passage. It states that because equality was not an option, he humbled himself accordingly.

 

[DNB]

as I said before, "thoughts" don't eat drink, and go to sleep. so nope on that.

PICJAG.

What the heck is that supposed to mean 101G? You asked me what was Christ prior to his birth on earth, and I said a thought in God's mind. When did Christ eat and drink before 4 BC?

 

[aspen]

Without the authority of the church, the Bible quickly becomes subjective; Biblical truths ratified by church councils are once again up for endless debate, and armchair theologians (claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit) mislead sincere believers with their relativism.

The doctrine of the Trinity was ratified 1400 years ago. It is a foundational doctrine within Christianity. It is no longer a question.

 

[theophilus]

I do not agree there is a need to offer sacrifice today unless you mean that we repent and apologise or make retribution. Jesus said in the sermon on the mount that if we had a dispute with a neighbour, we are to take it to a magistrate. I can show you at least three occasions, even in the Old Testament where God abhors burnt offerings.

God abhorred the sin which made the burnt offerings necessary.

 

[Cooper]

God abhorred the sin which made the burnt offerings necessary.

Burnt offerings were never necessary. In the Old Testament it was faith in God that saved, provided of course, and this should not need saying, provided it was faith in the true God. I say that because the Israelites worshipped numerous false gods including

Adrammelech; Anammelech; Asherah; Ass-Worship; Astarte Worship Among the Hebrews; Atargatis; Ba'al and Ba'al-Worship; Baal-peor; Baal-zebub; Baal-zephon; Bamah; Calf, Golden; Calf-Worship; Chemosh; Dagon; High Place; Moloch; Star-Worship; Stone and Stone-Worship; Tammuz; Teraphim; and Witchcraft).
Source WORSHIP, IDOL- - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Burnt offerings do not save, not even in the Old Testament, not even for a year and here we have it from the Lord himself:

Isaiah 1:11 “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats.

Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.

Psa 40:6 In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required.

Amos 5:22 Yea, though ye offer me your burnt-offerings and meal-offerings, I will not accept them; neither will I regard the peace-offerings of your fat beasts.

1Sa 15:22 "Tell me," Samuel said (to Saul). "Does the LORD really want sacrifices and offerings? No! He doesn't want your sacrifices. He wants you to obey him.

Psa 40:5-6 You have multiplied, O LORD my God, your wondrous deeds and your thoughts toward us; none can compare with you! I will proclaim and tell of them, yet they are more than can be told. In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. [Use it.] Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required.

This is what God wants from us.
Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.”

Mar_12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

So no, the true God, the Christian God, does not want us slaughtering his creation and then burning them in His name. I have never heard of anything so wicked. Jesus is the one who gave himself a sacrifice for us, and to put a dead animal on a pile of stones and set fire to it in the name of the Father, is like giving Jesus a slap across the face. I feel quite incensed.

 

[101G]

What the heck is that supposed to mean 101G? You asked me what was Christ prior to his birth on earth, and I said a thought in God's mind. When did Christ eat and drink before 4 BC?

GINOLJC, to all
first thanks for the reply, second, Jesus is not a thought in God's mind, because Jesus is God. he was never a thought? Jesus is God before his coming in flesh. so are you saying that God is a thought? I hope not. JESUS is the TRUE and LIVING God "shared" or as been saying "Diversified" in flesh. the Lord Jesus is no thought.

so your reply is illogical to say the Least. God is not a thought, but the ONLY Spirit. the bible say prove all things

Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
DNB, "FORM" here describe Jesus "NATURE" which ius EQUAL... WITH God.. sso please tell us how Jesus being EQUAL with God in NATURE is a thought. your answer please. and understand "NATURE" is not a "THOUGHT".

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

GINOLJC, to all
first thanks for the reply, second, Jesus is not a thought in God's mind, because Jesus is God. he was never a thought? Jesus is God before his coming in flesh. so are you saying that God is a thought? I hope not. JESUS is the TRUE and LIVING God "shared" or as been saying "Diversified" in flesh. the Lord Jesus is no thought.

so your reply is illogical to say the Least. God is not a thought, but the ONLY Spirit. the bible say prove all things

Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
DNB, "FORM" here describe Jesus "NATURE" which ius EQUAL... WITH God.. sso please tell us how Jesus being EQUAL with God in NATURE is a thought. your answer please. and understand "NATURE" is not a "THOUGHT".

PICJAG.

Are we going in circles, and circles, and circles?

 

[101G]

Are we going in circles, and circles, and circles?

NO, lest STOP it right here

Now listen closley. 1 Corinthians 10:1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;"
1 Corinthians 10:2 "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;"
1 Corinthians 10:3 "And did all eat the same spiritual meat;"
1 Corinthians 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

ok DNB, Christ is identified as the "ROCK" and was with the church, (the children of Israel), from egypt, and with them in the wilderness.

now was Christ a thought then, or what was Christ Nature then?

will be looking for your answer.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Well, if you know that God said "let US make man in OUR image," it is, at least, plural. As far as three, we have Isaiah 9:6

since you used this scripture lets go with it.

"God said "let US make man in OUR image," are you sure that this verse is speaking of a trinity? Yes or No...

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

NO, lest STOP it right here

Now listen closley. 1 Corinthians 10:1 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;"
1 Corinthians 10:2 "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;"
1 Corinthians 10:3 "And did all eat the same spiritual meat;"
1 Corinthians 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

ok DNB, Christ is identified as the "ROCK" and was with the church, (the children of Israel), from egypt, and with them in the wilderness.

now was Christ a thought then, or what was Christ Nature then?

will be looking for your answer.

PICJAG.

Again, a thought. The rock was the principle of faith that God had always intended to be the means towards salvation. Paul is alluding to the fact that the evidence of the change of Covenants was always there in the beginning, even at Rephidim and Meribah.

 

[101G]

Again, a thought. The rock was the principle of faith that God had always intended to be the means towards salvation. Paul is alluding to the fact that the evidence of the change of Covenants was always there in the beginning, even at Rephidim and Meribah.

first thanks for the reply. second, ERROR, nope Paul is telling us, and U that Jesus before he took on flesh as the ordinal "Last", he is the ordinal "First", Creator and Maker of all things. God almighty

for the "ROCK" is God almighty HIMSELF. supportive scripture, Deuteronomy 32:1 "Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth."(DBN, DBN, this is God speaking)
Deuteronomy 32:2 "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:"
Deuteronomy 32:3 "Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." BINGO. OUR God is the "ROCK" of my salvation.

JESUS is the "ROCK" our God, understand, you didn't have a clue who JESUS is in the OT, did you? "a" God of truth, say what? "a" God, yes, for God is "a" Spirit, per John 4:24a... (smile). a God of "TRUTH", Jesus is the "TRUTH", and the WAY. and he, JESUS is without "SIN", and he is our "righteousness", and he, Jesus is Just.

Now DBN, just where did you get that false statement from, " a thought. The rock was the principle of faith that God had always intended to be the means towards salvation. Paul is alluding to the fact that the evidence of the change of Covenants was always there in the beginning, even at Rephidim and Meribah". that's sounds so proper, and yet so WRONG. are you sure U got that from God?. LISTEN UP that principle of Faith in the NEW covenant was before Israel even went into Egypt, it was promised in Abraham the father of FAITH.... LOL. and you came up with that nonesense. .... man oh man. that's embarrassing. for even a novice bible student would not have made that mistake. 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

see DNB, your statement was not rightly divided. guess you are not studying.

since you feil miserable on the "ROCK", who is a "STONE" of stumbling, let see if we can redeem you a bit, so let's try again on that golden calf Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." (DNB, note the definite article is use here of the "Son")
Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."
Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

ok, DNB, the second time around should be better than the first, so tell us by NAME who Laid the foundation of the earth. Jesus the ordinal "FIRST", or Jesus the ordinal "LAST?" ..... or you can Go with another answer... your reply please.

PICJAG.

 

[user]

since you used this scripture lets go with it.
"God said "let US make man in OUR image," are you sure that this verse is speaking of a trinity? Yes or No...

You have a good point. There is NO trinity in creation...

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

What it does not say is, "created they him" or "created they them"


Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:


If God were a "trinity" then he would most certainly be aware of the other two co-equal, co-existent "persons"...

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.


The man-made trinity theory came along in 325AD.

God Bless!

 

[101G]

You have a good point. There is NO trinity in creation...

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

What it does not say is, "created they him" or "created they them"


Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:


If God were a "trinity" then he would most certainly be aware of the other two co-equal, co-existent "persons"...

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.


The man-made trinity theory came along in 325AD.

God Bless!

thanks in the name of the Lord JESUS. you're correct. the "us" and the "our" in Genesis 1:26 is God himself speaking of himself coming in flesh. for the very next verse confirm that. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." clearly it was only one person. and as a matter of FACT, the Lord Jesus himself "WHO CANNOT LIE", confirms that it was only ONE PERSON who made the male and the female. while talking to the Pharisees concerning divorcement listen to what JESUS says about who created the male and the female. Matthew 19:3 "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?"
Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,"
BINGO, if the Lord Jesus said that "he" one person made them male and female, and JESUS cannot LIE. so that seals the deal. now the question is why did God say "US" and "OUR" in Genesis 1:26, and then say "HE" and "HIS" in the very next verse. answer, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

an IMAGE is seen and known, God was to come in flesh and make himself known to the WORLD. this is what the "Offspring"/Diversity is all about, God himself "shared" ... EQUALLY in Flesh, which is the LAST Adam. meaning the NEW CREATION to come after his resurrection.

so user, you're on POINT

PICJAG

 

[Cooper]

You have a good point. There is NO trinity in creation...

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

What it does not say is, "created they him" or "created they them"


Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:


If God were a "trinity" then he would most certainly be aware of the other two co-equal, co-existent "persons"...

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.


The man-made trinity theory came along in 325AD.

God Bless!

Did you not read post 105?
.

 

[user]

Did you not read post 105?

Yes, I went back and re-read it, but we can not ignore what Jesus said to the Jews...

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[27] They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.


Now let's compare the following references...

The Lord God is the Creator. Isaiah 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3-10.

The Lord God said, "I am He." Isaiah 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.

The Lord God is the only Saviour. Isaiah 43:10-11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.

The Lord God shall reign forever. Psalms 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke ‪1:33‬.

The Lord God is the King of Israel. Isaiah 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt 27:37.

The Lord God is the First and the Last. Isaiah 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Revelation 1:8.


How can Jesus be both the Father and the Son? Jesus himself addressed this very question...

Luke 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? [42] And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [43] Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. [44] David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? [36] For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. [37] David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Jesus is the First and the Last.
He is the Alpha and the Omega.
He is the Lion and the Lamb.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


God Bless!