The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[bbyrd009]

What you are doing is….

not deflecting, as you are doing constantly, wadr

 

[RLT63]

First, you are quoting a reply I made to Bbyrd009. We were talking about his disagreement over how the word “Word” cannot possibly refer also to the Scriptures (or the Bible) in addition to Jesus Christ (Which is a brief side issue). This article is dealing with your disagreement primarily over King James Only-ism. Again, these topics are not even the topics of the thread. You both have an art for wanting to disrupt another person’s thread (with little care or respect for his topic). Second, in reply to your link: Mr Will Kinney makes a great case against Mr Price’s nonsense.

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But again, this whole side issue of not believing in a perfect Bible that exists today that we can hold in our hands is a diversion to when Johann had disagreed with the plain words in English for 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24. He prefers to select some definition he prefers by acting like he spent his entire life studying the original languages and claiming superiority over the 47 translators on the King James Bible (with many of them actually knowing the Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek). I helped to show Johann how Calvinism is wrong by just using a plain and simple English Bible. I am not sure if he reverted back to Calvinism or not, but the point here is that I did not play any game using the Original Languages with him (Whereby I was attempting to undo what the Bible says in English). The point here is that most come up with an idea in their mind of what they want to be true or they latch on to popular Christianity and their way of thinking instead of just reading and believing the Bible for themselves (With the help of God by way of prayer). Most just follow their own thoughts or the popular thoughts of others. This is at the heart of why many today reject overcoming sin in this life in the Bible. It is man who desires to sin. God does not want you to sin; And neither is God (the Maker of the Heavens and the Earth) powerless to help man in this life to achieve that goal. There is nothing greater than God. Sin is not greater than God. God is more powerful than sin. But men like sin, and they seek to defend it. That’s what this thread is really about (Whether somebody justifies a little bit of sin or a lot of sin - it makes no difference). When one has a mindset to justify sin on any level, they are agreeing with the First Adam and not with the Last Adam (Jesus Christ).

Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Obviously many here do not have the mind of Christ because they defend how they must sin a little again.
Yet, Jesus never justified sin ever (Because He is God).

Sorry I interrupted your very amusing conversation with bbird. I like the KJV but I am not King James Only and I like the NKJV. There is no need to argue about it your position is clear. Good luck with your conviction to live a sinless life. Paul, Peter and James couldn’t do it but it is admirable that you try. I’ll leave you to your conversation with bbird. Good luck

 

[HIM]

When someone says “Thus saith the Lord “ it makes me wonder why God would speak in King James’ English

Why if that is the Bible they read from? Are We His ambassadors? Is it God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure? Is it In Him we live, move and have are being? If he is not speaking through us who is?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry I interrupted your very amusing conversation with bbird.

Actually, I am planning not to really address his posts anymore for various reasons that I would rather not say here so as to be kind.

I like the KJV but I am not King James Only and I like the NKJV. There is no need to argue about it your position is clear.

You have your reasons for believing the way you do (as I do for mine). I believe I can defend my position biblically, though. Whereas your position I cannot really see how that is possible. Also, comparing the origin of the translation with the KJB vs. the NKJV is like night and day. We can see the blood of the saints leading up to the KJB, and a failed attempt to destroy the KJB and it’s creators. The KJB was created for the noble cause of uniting two factions and so that everyone could have the Word of God, and not just a particular religious faction or elite. Yet, the NKJV is not founded upon origins that is as noble because they seek you to look to the Nestle and Aland footnotes. It is a bridge Bible to rely on the Modern versions as one’s base, and or to doubt certain verses in the Bible. If there were no footnotes in the NKJV, and it did not base it on the Alexandrian texts mingled in with the Textus Receptus, then that would be a different story. The Wikipedia article on the NKJV is misinformed or incorrect in that the New Testament is soley based on the Textus Receptus. If that was the case then the NKJV would not agree with Modern Bibles (Based on Alexandrian manuscripts) over what the KJB says.

Good luck with your conviction to live a sinless life.

There is no such thing as luck. It is God who blesses and who makes the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. God is good and sometimes we cannot always see His greater plan for good working in our lives. But again… believers need to go through a Sanctification Process to live a holy life here on this Earth. It’s not an overnight thing. It takes time to grow and learn and to get there. So again… I am not advocating the viewpoint of other Sinless Perfectionsts who erroneously claim one can be Sinlessly Perfect right away or immediately on day 1 of service to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, I did not write the Bible. God did. His Word clearly teaches that we are to be perfect in this life.

“The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

“Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Notice. We are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. Not just some filthiness of the flesh and spirit. It’s not ALMOST cleansing ourselves from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

I just read the Bible and believe it.
You cannot do that because your thinking or the thinking of others rules your mind to then seek to make the Bible fit those thoughts.

Paul, Peter and James couldn’t do it but it is admirable that you try.

We don’t have a video camera and or record of their entire lives to truly know if they had reached a state of perfection towards the end or not. Granted, Paul says he finished the race, and he fought the good fight (2 Timothy 4:7); This his implies he may have reached that state of perfection with the Lord (while he was yet still alive).

I’ll leave you to your conversation with bbird. Good luck

I am really interested in conversing with him anymore, though. I can only take so much in talking to certain people (especially when they reject the plain meaning of basic things in Scripture).

Anyways, may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you both (even if we disagree strongly on the matters of the faith).

 

[RLT63]

Actually, I am planning not to really address his posts anymore for various reasons that I would rather not say here so as to be kind.



You have your reasons for believing the way you do (as I do for mine). I believe I can defend my position biblically, though. Whereas your position I cannot really see how that is possible. Also, comparing the origin of the translation with the KJB vs. the NKJV is like night and day. We can see the blood of the saints leading up to the KJB, and a failed attempt to destroy the KJB and it’s creators. The KJB was created for the noble cause of uniting two factions and so that everyone could have the Word of God, and not just a particular religious faction or elite. Yet, the NKJV is not founded upon origins that is as noble because they seek you to look to the Nestle and Aland footnotes. It is a bridge Bible to rely on the Modern versions as one’s base, and or to doubt certain verses in the Bible. If there were no footnotes in the NKJV, and it did not base it on the Alexandrian texts mingled in with the Textus Receptus, then that would be a different story. The Wikipedia article on the NKJV is misinformed or incorrect in that the New Testament is soley based on the Textus Receptus. If that was the case then the NKJV would not agree with Modern Bibles (Based on Alexandrian manuscripts) over what the KJB says.


There is no such thing as luck. It is God who blesses and who makes the rain to fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. God is good and sometimes we cannot always see His greater plan for good working in our lives. But again… believers need to go through a Sanctification Process to live a holy life here on this Earth. It’s not an overnight thing. It takes time to grow and learn and to get there. So again… I am not advocating the viewpoint of other Sinless Perfectionsts who erroneously claim one can be Sinlessly Perfect right away or immediately on day 1 of service to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, I did not write the Bible. God did. His Word clearly teaches that we are to be perfect in this life.

“The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

“Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Notice. We are to cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. Not just some filthiness of the flesh and spirit. It’s not ALMOST cleansing ourselves from the filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

I just read the Bible and believe it.
You cannot do that because your thinking or the thinking of others rules your mind to then seek to make the Bible fit those thoughts.



We don’t have a video camera and or record of their entire lives to truly know if they had reached a state of perfection towards the end or not. Granted, Paul says he finished the race, and he fought the good fight (2 Timothy 4:7); This his implies he may have reached that state of perfection with the Lord (while he was yet still alive).



I am really interested in conversing with him anymore, though. I can only take so much in talking to certain people (especially when they reject the plain meaning of basic things in Scripture).

Anyways, may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you both (even if we disagree strongly on the matters of the faith).

The user Davy I talked to on another thread shares your view of the KJV. You may want to see Oldest and Best Really and King James Version Only threads

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The user Davy I talked to on another thread shares your view of the KJV. You may want to see Oldest and Best Really and King James Version Only threads

Davy just recently put me on ignore for my disagreeing with him on the definition that comes from a Bible dictionary that is not really founded in God’s Word that I can see.

You can check that out here.

As for the KJB threads: I will reply there. Thanks.

But the KJB is my base as you know and so that is why I believe 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 in the 1600’s English.
Different verses keep pointing to how we are to either to be perfect, or blameless, etcetera (Which is to be in this life and not the next one).

Anyways, may God’s good ways be upon you (even if we disagree).

 

[RLT63]

Davy just recently put me on ignore for my disagreeing with him on the definition that comes from a Bible dictionary that is not really founded in God’s Word that I can see.

You can check that out here.

As for the KJB threads: I will reply there. Thanks.

But the KJB is my base as you know and so that is why I believe 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 in the 1600’s English.
Different verses keep pointing to how we are to either to be perfect, or blameless, etcetera (Which is to be in this life and not the next one).

Anyways, may God’s good ways be upon you (even if we disagree).

Thank you. May God bless you and reward you for your convictions.

 

[bbyrd009]

planning not to really address his posts anymore

ha pls i mean have you addressed one yet? cherrypicked it, maybe

 

[bbyrd009]

Why if that is the Bible they read from? Are We His ambassadors? Is it God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure? Is it In Him we live, move and have are being? If he is not speaking through us who is?

not disagreeing ezackly, but Paul’s counter argument would be “when in Rome” i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

I just read the Bible and believe it.
You cannot do that because your thinking or the thinking of others rules your mind to then seek to make the Bible fit those thoughts

you lie, and the truth is not in you, sorry
besides the fact that you are the accuser, i mean
but i also wish you the best of luck :)

fwiw your superiority complex is showing, starkly

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is the meaning of perfection in the Bible?
perfection in the Bible
ANSWER

The meaning of perfection in the Bible relates to a state of completeness or absolute wholeness. Biblical perfection involves freedom from fault, defect, or shortcoming. In the New Testament, a Greek term for “perfection” can also mean “maturity.” The Bible expresses perfection in at least three different contexts: the perfection of God, the perfection of Christ, and the perfection of humans.

Absolute perfection is a quality that belongs to God alone. Yet only in Matthew 5:48 does the Bible explicitly state that God is by nature perfect: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” As God is the perfect being, all that He does is perfect: “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4). His knowledge is perfect (Job 37:16). His way is perfect, and His Word is flawless: “As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 18:30). God’s laws are also perfect (Psalm 19:7; James 1:25). The apostle Paul describes God’s will as perfect: “Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will” (Romans 12:2).

In Hebrews 2:10, Scripture says that Jesus was made perfect through suffering: “God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation” (NLT).

As God incarnate, Jesus was already morally perfect. Christ’s suffering and death made Him “perfect” in the sense of qualifying to serve as the faultless high priest for God’s people (Hebrews 7:28). Only through suffering on the cross was Christ able to accomplish the work of redemption and become the perfect, complete, effective Savior of His people (Hebrews 5:9). Jesus was the perfect example of what it means to live in obedience to the Father’s will.

As we read in Matthew 5:48, God’s children are called to be perfect. This does not mean that humans can obtain the same holy perfection as God, for He alone is set apart in holiness (Isaiah 6:3; Psalm 99:9; Exodus 15:11). The call to be perfect is what the apostle Paul meant when he said, “Be imitators of God, as beloved children” (Ephesians 5:1, ESV). As children tend to imitate their parents, God’s children ought to imitate their Lord and reflect His perfection in the way they live.

The idea of spiritual maturity relates closely to the word perfection in the Bible. Humans are not perfect, but followers of Christ are encouraged to seek perfection: “And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing” (James 1:4, ESV). Paul said that he had not yet obtained perfection but had made it his goal: “I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me” (Philippians 3:12, NLT). Paul knew that perfection for believers would only be realized in the life to come (verses 13–21).

Perfection is a gift that humans receive through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ: “For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. Under the old covenant, the priest stands and ministers before the altar day after day, offering the same sacrifices again and again, which can never take away sins. But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy” (Hebrews 10:10–14, NLT).

Another verse that is key to understanding perfection as it relates to the Christian life is 2 Corinthians 12:9: “But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.’” Through the grace God offers in Jesus Christ, Christians are perfected in weakness; through participating in the sufferings of Jesus Christ, they are conformed to His image (Matthew 5:10–12; 1 Peter 2:19–25; 3:14; 4:12–19).


Be ye therefore perfect ... - The Saviour concludes this part of the discourse by commanding his disciples to be “perfect.” This word commonly means “finished, complete, pure, holy.” Originally, it is applied to a piece of mechanism, as a machine that is complete in its parts. Applied to people, it refers to completeness of parts, or perfection, where no part is defective or wanting. Thus, Job Job_1:1 is said to be “perfect;” that is, not holy as God, or “sinless” - for fault is afterward found with him Job_9:20; Job_42:6; but his piety was “proportionate” - had a completeness of parts was consistent and regular. He exhibited his religion as a prince, a father, an individual, a benefactor of the poor. He was not merely a pious man in one place, but uniformly. He was consistent everywhere. See the notes at that passage. This is the meaning in Matthew. Be not religious merely in loving your friends and neighbors, but let your piety be shown in loving your enemies; imitate God; let your piety be “complete, proportionate, regular.” This every Christian may be; this every Christian must be.

1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
1Co 3:12 But if anyone builds upon the Foundation, whether it be with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1Co 3:13 The work of each [one] will become [plainly, openly] known (shown for what it is); for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation [any product of his efforts whatever] survives [this test], he will get his reward.
1Co 3:15 But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire. [Job_23:10]

J.

The real test in theology is how is it working for you or others? Do you find yourself moving closer to God and doing more of what God commands of you? Or do you still find yourself to be the same way (Loving the things of this world, and claiming you sin every day in thought, deed, etcetera). The problem is that you are either for fighting to put away sin for good, or you are in a “love and hate relationship” with sin. This is what being double minded is all about. One can appear to want to fight against sin, and then turn around like a person who has a split personality and defends sin and how they must sin again. Again, Jesus spewed out the Lukewarm church out of his mouth. This to me sounds like what many in Christianity today teach. They teach lukewarmness. They don’t teach being on fire for God and in overcoming sin in this life as the Bible plainly teaches (Galatians 5:24) (2 Corinthians 7:1) (1 Peter 4:1-2). Many today in the church defend how they must sin again using 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 as excuses to sin (When in reality the context does not support such conclusions). Note: The context is the chapter and or the surrounding chapters. So it’s funny that many who use 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 don’t use the context to support how they must sin in the present tense. Meaning, there are no surrounding words near these pieces of Scripture that speaks of how we must sin again in the present tense.

Why?

Why? Well, it’s because they are ripping the Bible out of context to defend sin.
Anybody can make the Bible appear to say what they think it says.
Isaiah 45:7 is a classic verse used by High Calvinists to defend the idea that God directly creates evil (When that is not the case according to the context and the rest of the Bible).

 

[bbyrd009]

Different verses keep pointing to how we are to either to be perfect

”as I am perfect,” which i mean you gotta note that really nobody, zero ppl, agree with how Yah does things, right

or blameless, etcetera (Which is to be in this life and not the next one).

next one? what next one?
“I came that you might haves lives, more abundantly”
lol
i mean sry but coming from a guy who was “just telling you what the Bible said,” i mean…have you not gotten to that part yet, or what
Dust you are, and to dust you will return

 

[bbyrd009]

The real test in theology is how is it working for you or others? Do you find yourself moving closer to God and doing more of what God commands of you? Or do you still find yourself to be the same way (Loving the things of this world, and claiming you sin every day in thought, deed, etcetera). The problem is that you are either for fighting to put away sin for good, or you are in a “love and hate relationship” with sin. This is what being double minded is all about. One can appear to want to fight against sin, and then turn around like a person who has a split personality and defends sin and how they must sin again. Again, Jesus spewed out the Lukewarm church out of his mouth. This to me sounds like what many in Christianity today teach. They teach lukewarmness. They don’t teach being on fire for God and in overcoming sin in this life as the Bible plainly teaches (Galatians 5:24) (2 Corinthians 7:1) (1 Peter 4:1-2). Many today in the church defend how they must sin again using 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 as excuses to sin (When in reality the context does not support such conclusions). Note: The context is the chapter and or the surrounding chapters. So it’s funny that many who use 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24 don’t use the context to support how they must sin in the present tense. Meaning, there are no surrounding words near these pieces of Scripture that speaks of how we must sin again in the present tense.

Why?

Why? Well, it’s because they are ripping the Bible out of context to defend sin.
Anybody can make the Bible appear to say what they think it says.
Isaiah 45:7 is a classic verse used by High Calvinists to defend the idea that God directly creates evil (When that is not the case according to the context and the rest of the Bible).

truly, you are an earnest person, who is prolly better hearted than me
and i feel for you when you crash and burn, ok?
fwiw its part of the process, gotta do your…well, seems to be about forty years i guess, first

 

[bbyrd009]

For example: 1 John 1:8. Please show in the context that John was trying to make a case how we all sin and we cannot help but to sin and if we claim we are not having some kind of sin in our life… we are deceived. Please. Just show me one verse besides 1 John 1:10 (Which is a denial of past sin) that defends your sin and still be saved interpretation on 1 John 1:8. If you cannot do so

the problem there is that we currently adhere to completely different definitions of many of those terms, so my reply would be pretty much meaningless for you. You are right where you should be right now imo, trying your very hardest to not sin. Paul has some vv on that, but they are in code…and you wouldnt like my translation of them very much right now, i guess

anyway i came back to say that i have ass burgers, so i suspect that i am much more enamored of my opinion than you are of yours
if thats possible
it took a long time to learn how full of crap i was :)

 

[bbyrd009]

What you are doing is….

“I have an idea I like and prefer and so now I am going to use the Bible to defend these false ideas I prefer (That exists only in mind).”​

​

You are not trying to figure out the context and or trying to be corrected. You are focusing a laser beam on certain verses and drawing a wrong conclusion.

​

For example: 1 John 1:8. Please show in the context that John was trying to make a case how we all sin and we cannot help but to sin and if we claim we are not having some kind of sin in our life… we are deceived. Please. Just show me one verse besides 1 John 1:10 (Which is a denial of past sin) that defends your sin and still be saved interpretation on 1 John 1:8. If you cannot do so…. Then you are simply ripping a verse out context to the rest of the Bible.

​

Also, believers enter the Sanctification of the Spirit in order to EVENTUALLY reach a state of Sinless Perfection in this life.
It takes time to learn and grow. Nowhere am I stating that a believer is instantly a super saint the first day of their service to the Lord Jesus Christ. It takes time to grow and learn God’s Word and apply to your life. Nobody here is claiming they are a super saint instantly although there are some believers who do hold to that viewpoint (of whom I disagree with).

man, i became a Super Saint Instantly, i think thats even a pretty good meme for what i was being called then lol, i did the “I Found It!” campaign—yall member that one? Calling unsuspecting homo ners at the dinner hour and hitting them with the shpiel? lol
may Yah have mercy on me
ya, i was gonnado Big Things for Jesus…
most humble guy you ever met, too

 

[marks]

the problem there is that we currently adhere to completely different definitions of many of those terms, so my reply would be pretty much meaningless for you. You are right where you should be right now imo, trying your very hardest to not sin. Paul has some vv on that, but they are in code…and you wouldnt like my translation of them very much right now, i guess

anyway i came back to say that i have ass burgers, so i suspect that i am much more enamored of my opinion than you are of yours
if thats possible
it took a long time to learn how full of crap i was :)

Kind of a laugh how much I relate to this . . .

Much love!

 

[Ghada]

The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

Sounds better than the ungodly heresy of sinning saints.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did.

God forbid! Heresy! Heresy!

At a glance, it makes a lot of sense.

Not to unrepented sinners, it doesn't.

Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Ah yes, the good old gospel of high aspirations, but low expectations.

This is the gospel of an idealized Christ, where the possibility to walk like Him, is just not really practical.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical

Not in heaven it isn't, nor on earth. The good news of Jesus Christ is living in Him without sinning, with the promise in the end of living with Him in heaven without temptation at all.

However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8).

True. Sinners such as yourself ought never say you are not sinning and have no sin. Your gospel forbids it. You must always keep your first practical commandment of having sin and never sinning not.

There is of course the idealized version in the Bible that you teach is impractical.

It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17).

Just not winning it. Or at least not all the time. God forbid that impractical heresy.

Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15).

It is for me. And I keep it out there with your church and the world.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous.

Very much so. Not sinning on earth is certainly a danger to the kingdom of darkness on earth.

People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.

So, the Christian perfection of walking like Jesus by overcoming temptation as He, is proof that Christian perfection is impossible, because they don't realize they are supposed to be overcoming sinning like Jesus?

Right.

Actually, it's more like not realizing we are ought be walking and overcoming as He all the time, that the half-baked gospel leads to.

The unrealization is built into your win some lose some gospel. Since you teach sinning not at all is unreality, then they can never realize fighting every temptation to sin not.

Your gospel forbids it as unrealizable at the outset.

There are no Christian 'participation' prizes from God the Father.

I'm not saying you have to preach Christian perfection or anything, but why do you have to go out of your way to preach inevitable Christian sinning? I mean, that's all you're doing here. I go to a church where neither is preached, and neither is missed.

What you have is a serious axe to grind against the holy saints in Christ Jesus. I also think you like showing how enlightened you are ministering inevitable sinning to Christians.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[amigo de christo]

Kind of a laugh how much I relate to this . . .

Much love!

Almost every time i speak or type i feel like i got asperbergers .
cause someone be a chewing on me . But all is well . WE GOT THE LORD my friend . WE GOT THE LORD .
In the end the lambs WIN , for JESUS HAS ALREADY WON . Now hit those trenches .

 

[Ghada]

There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

I don't know of any such thing taught by him, and from the commentaries I read quoiting him he mostly preached overcoming sin, not preaching against overcoming sin as a full-time winning profession in Christ Jesus.

But, if he ever did, you and he can slap each other on the back.

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

No, a claim to Christian perfection debunked.

We see here you turning the truth of a story into a lie to make the man agree with your unrepented sinners' gospel.

I wouldn't be surprised if you added the last two words to the story.




And of course we see a lie made out of the truth here. Sturgeon proved a claimant to going on to perfection, obviously had not. I don't see any teaching by Spurgeon against it.

Nor am I pumping up Spurgeon. If he ever did preach against going on to perfection in Christ Jesus, then he would simply have been as much a false accuser against Christian saints with a perfect heart toward God, as you.

Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true?

No, because then you'd be wishing for a lie.

Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Not if you still refuse to repent of course. You still like it too much to repent.

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too

There's certainly nothing lukewarm about your personal attack on Christians going on to perfection in Christ Jesus.

However, your wishy-washy stuff about being free from sinning, is a bit lip-servicey.

It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability.

I'm glad I came upon this post. I thought I had heard everything about the gospel for Christian sinners, but you are taking the cake.

Christian sinning is inevitable, but shrugging your shoulders at it certainly is not! Inevitable Christian sinning must be taken seriously! You must believe and obey it with all the heart! And never ever forget how important it is to do it unto death.

The new gospel of inevitably sinning with gusto! You can call it the No-Shrugs Church of sinners.

It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that.

Why not? Some Christians teach sinning from the womb, is as naturally inevitable as any bodily function, like pooping. It's stinks but it's inevitably necessary.

Don't you preach that too? Or does your brand of the inevitable sinning gospel say that you must at least try to hold it in as long as possible?

It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.”

Hahahahahahahaha!! I am really enjoying this. I want you to know you are a real hoot.

First we preach we know that we all sin, but don't be so glib about it!

I've got your back buddy!

That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.

Ghastly too? Well, at least it's not destructive to your Christianity and church, like not sinning at all.

This is beautiful: so when your preachers preach to the congregation, do they exhort and challenge their sinful members to have a more positive attitude about their sinning, and not be so ghastly glib about it as with a shrug?

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability—sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that.

Wait a minute. You can't be challenging all this shrug glib way of sinning, and then turn around and say you're ok with it.

Oh wait. I see. You "speak as a ghastly glib and shrugging man." Gotcha pal. You had me worried there about your own steadfastness in the inevitably sinning faith of Christian sinners.

 

[Ghada]

It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism

Of course it is. It's easy for any unrepented sinner on earth to do so. It's just that not everyone takes so long to do it. And spend so much time justifying unrepented sinning.

because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine.

Well, since no one's doing that, but everyone is doing it, then all is well on earth.

We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque;

That's right! Just like pooping! Stinky but inevitable.

However, to be charitable, I'm thinking your aversion to your brethren being to casual about your inevitable sinning, may be getting a bit of a bad rap from you. Are you sure you're not just giving lip-service to how really really really bad and sinful your inevitable sinning is to you? Just a bit perhaps.

We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

You haven't forgotten anything in the Bible you don't believe in. While you certainly believe this is written in the Bible, you just don't believe it's necessary to do all the time. And certainly don't believe it is anywhere near as inevitable as unholy sinning is.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely.

Why be free of sinning today, when we can repent after the grave?

Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, repent, and go to heaven.

However, Catholic purgatory is just not practical in hell.

We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Now this is really ingeniously subtle. Straight from the garden I'd say. We ought be 'obsessed' with living holy now, just inevitably not doing it.

For now, we must satisfy ourselves with just being obsessed by the idea of it later. Not enough to actually do it now, which of course is inevitably impossible on earth. It's like obsessing ourselves about fishing, but never going near the water.

Yeah. I'm thinking lip obssession only.

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6).

Once again, hungering and thirstering, but not eating and drinking. Which could certainly lead to a very real obsession over it.

Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated.

Looks like I am learning your doctrine so well, that I can anticipate it and say it for you beforehand. Cool.

Is our hunger for righteousness like that?

Yes!! A thousand times yes yes yes!!! Since we can't do it now, we must at least really really really hungerrrrrrr for it deep in our bellies!!!

I want to hear some tummies growling out there for the righteousness that we can't do now, but we can certainly wish for it later!! Do ya'll preach that in your churches. I would. I could probably get some good humored chuckles from the members that actually believe it.

That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right.

No. Perfection gets it right by doing it.

Don't mix your gospel of the unrighteous obsessing over a righteousness you neither have nor do, with Jesus' gospel of the righteous having and doing it with Him.

And thus far, the only real zeal I see from you is obsessing over how inevitably you must sin without shrugging over it.

You may not be anti-sinning, but you certainly are anti-glib about shrugging with it.

That is a profoundly godly ambition,

Yes, and like all unrealized ambitions on earth, we can only obsess about it for later.

and one that all Christians should share.

Not me. I don't share in obsessing over unrealize ambitions doomed to inevitably fail in this life.

If I believed it were impossible to repent and cease from sinning with Jesus today, then I guess I'd probably be one of your shrugging bros. I mean, why obsess over something now, when I can just get it in the end without repenting in the first place?

We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Halleluah!!! You state this stuff better than any other Christian sinner teaching your stuff!! I like your succinct boldness.

Just spit it right out there! We still inevitably sin, but we sure ain't gonna like it! Happiness is inevitably sinning without a shrug!