The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[marks]

The New Covenant . . .

John 11:25-26 KJV
25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Serious Sin Can Separate Us From GOD Verses:

Only "serious sin"? What do you consider a "non-serious sin"? What sin does not separate you from God? What makes one sin different from another?

This is my ongoing observation. Those who say we must not sin or we do not remain saved, in my experience, excuse some sins as "not so bad", and, "OK with God".

I don't believe for a moment that there is sin that does not separate the sinner from God.

And you say it "can separate us from God", do you mean that even serious sin may or may not separate us from God? What is sin in your definition? This doesn't make any sense to me. You accuse me of excusing sin, but it seems that you are the one who does that, not me.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sins Not Unto Death

Sins Not Unto Death: Important Note: Please keep in mind that I am not trying to trivialize sin. I believe after we are saved by God's grace that we must live holy as a part of God's plan of salvation. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Believers cannot justify sin that leads...

www.christianforums.com

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Holiness has to be believed to be recieved

 

[Johann]

Exactly! He was disfellowshipped, not condemned.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It seems I'm not the one who is excusing sin . . . I suppose, though, that if someone is to claim that they don't sin, then it must help to shorten the list of "sins".

I've seen that over and over, that those who make such claims, or claim that the sinning Christian dies again, these are they who excuse some sins, who claim, You shall not surely die, if "that" is all you are doing!

They don't recognize sins they commit, and they excuse ones they do recognize, so that this fate will never come to them! Only to others! To you! And you! No, not me!

I've seen this repeat itself over and over for decades.

We need to be honest with ourselves, and stop making exceptions for sin!

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Believers need to be in obedience to God’s New Testament commands when they grow and mature in the Sanctification of the Spirit.
This means obedience to all of God’s commands that are applicable to Christians (that come from Jesus and His followers). Believers cannot commit grievous sin and be saved. Believers will desire to obey even in the smallest matters and details with God. Most sins are grievous sins that the Bible attaches with warnings of hellfire and condemnation. The list of those sins that do not lead to spiritual death (according to Scripture) is an extremely super short list and a true believer will desire to put away even these sins. I am also open to the viewpoint that Matthew 5:22 may not be teaching non-death sins vs. a death sin, as well. The point here is obedience always and we should obey the LORD in everything. Believers should never have the mindset of what they can get away with. They are bought and paid for with a price and they are not their own. Of course sin and still be saved Christians try to see that we are making excuses for sin when that is not the case at all. No true believer will ever desire to disobey God in anything.

Sinless Perfection is believed by even those who deny Sinless Perfection. They believe Jesus is their proxy and He is the One who lived that Sinless Life so that they don’t have to. They just believe on the finished work of the cross and obedience to God really does not have any affect upon their salvation. While it is true that Jesus lived sinlessly perfect, it is not true that they believe Jesus lived Sinlessly Perfectly on their behalf and that when they sin, God does not see their sin but the Father only sees Jesus. The problem in this belief is that it leads to an immoral life on some level that runs contrary to Scripture. There is no true holiness when you teach others that they can commit gross sins like lying, adultery, etcetera, and still be saved while doing so. They can watch sinful movies, and TV shows. They can listen to secular music that promotes sin. They draw near to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. Jesus said if you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love. If we are not loving Jesus or abiding in His love… we are not saved. Paul himself said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus, let him be accursed. Love is not just in our saying we love or in us having emotional feelings only with no real change in our actions. Yes, we do need to have love in our hearts with our actions (See: 1 Corinthians 13). But the point is that we cannot truly love without God and without obeying what He says. If we are in disobedience to God, we don’t love Him, and people who don’t love God don’t enter His Kingdom.

I honestly do not see how the Grievous Sin and Still Be Saved Christian can read Matthew 7:22-23 with a straight face and actually think it’s not talking about them being lawless or in them doing iniquity. Then again, if a person does not receive the love of the truth, God sends a strong delusion for them to believe a lie. Once Scripture is rejected in favor of sin, the stronghold of the enemy has taken place in their thinking and it is extremely rare and or difficult for them to change at this point. Only a major intervention with a life event (similar to like with Samson) by the working of God and His mercy would they be able to change (if God knows they are capable to change and they have not hardened their hearts by the deceitfulness of sin). For the Christian who says they don’t lose salvation by sin is justifying sin because it goes against so many verses in the Bible that teach how sin can separate us from God (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62). Men today are rejecting God’s Word today on a grand scale in many different ways. If they are for holiness, they appear to reject the grace of God or the substitutionary atonement. Some holiness groups or teachers reject the Godhead (i.e. that God is three distinct persons, and yet He is one God). If they are for the grace of God, in many cases they think they can sin and still be saved on some level. The falling away has happened and is here.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

1. Have a desire to stop all sinning practices (& thoughts). Also, believe that The Lord can deliver.
2. Take every thought captive to obey Christ. As sin begins in the mind.
3. Make every physical, and mental effort to avoid 'the' sin. One by one.

Then wait for The Lord to do the rest, and 'when' He does, give Him ALL the glory. Take none for ourselves, as this is a major stumbling block.
Point 2 is key.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:23

 

[Lizbeth]

Hebrews 12:10-11 KJV
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

It was to the saving of his soul, not a hoop he had to jump through to "remain saved".

If our salvation is contingent on our performance/behavior, that we can thank ourselves for behaving well enough to "remain saved".

God promises to chasten (train as you train a child) His children, and He tells us His chastening works.

Trust Him.

Much love!

Not sure we should think in terms of hoops, but only try to stick with what the scriptures say. If there are any hoops involved, maybe we could say repenting of his sin was the hoop he needed to jump through by the grace of God. If he had never repented and stopped his sinning and died in his grievous sin, that wouldn't have likely resulted in his soul being saved. Sin bears it's own kind of fruit, the bible says when sin is grow up it brings forth death, ie, spiritual death. Not to be taken lightly.

I've seen the downward death spiral of some who fell into sins...concerned for someone I know right now actually. Sin separates from God....it deceives and hardens the heart. This is a serious battle we're in. Living in wilful sins is anathema to being a Christian.....either live in sin or follow Jesus, can't be doing both at the same time, they are mutually exclusive. Anyone who doesn't take sin seriously is not going to battle their sin or seek the Lord for help to battle it. They are deceived by their sin ('oh, it doesn't FEEL so wrong') and that's a dangerous place to be in.

The Lord chastises us for our good, but i dont believe we're entirely passive in the process of things.....our will is involved too, we have our part. He does everything on His part to help make us willing, but we do need to become willing and not stubbornly resist the Spirit and cling to sin or our own way.

 

[Lizbeth]

Believers need to be in obedience to God’s New Testament commands when they grow and mature in the Sanctification of the Spirit.
This means obedience to all of God’s commands that are applicable to Christians (that come from Jesus and His followers). Believers cannot commit grievous sin and be saved. Believers will desire to obey even in the smallest matters and details with God. Most sins are grievous sins that the Bible attaches with warnings of hellfire and condemnation. The list of those sins that do not lead to spiritual death (according to Scripture) is an extremely super short list and a true believer will desire to put away even these sins. I am also open to the viewpoint that Matthew 5:22 may not be teaching non-death sins vs. a death sin, as well. The point here is obedience always and we should obey the LORD in everything. Believers should never have the mindset of what they can get away with. They are bought and paid for with a price and they are not their own. Of course sin and still be saved Christians try to see that we are making excuses for sin when that is not the case at all. No true believer will ever desire to disobey God in anything.

Sinless Perfection is believed by even those who deny Sinless Perfection. They believe Jesus is their proxy and He is the One who lived that Sinless Life so that they don’t have to. They just believe on the finished work of the cross and obedience to God really does not have any affect upon their salvation. While it is true that Jesus lived sinlessly perfect, it is not true that they believe Jesus lived Sinlessly Perfectly on their behalf and that when they sin, God does not see their sin but the Father only sees Jesus. The problem in this belief is that it leads to an immoral life on some level that runs contrary to Scripture. There is no true holiness when you teach others that they can commit gross sins like lying, adultery, etcetera, and still be saved while doing so. They can watch sinful movies, and TV shows. They can listen to secular music that promotes sin. They draw near to God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. Jesus said if you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love. If we are not loving Jesus or abiding in His love… we are not saved. Paul himself said if any man loves not the Lord Jesus, let him be accursed. Love is not just in our saying we love or in us having emotional feelings only with no real change in our actions. Yes, we do need to have love in our hearts with our actions (See: 1 Corinthians 13). But the point is that we cannot truly love without God and without obeying what He says. If we are in disobedience to God, we don’t love Him, and people who don’t love God don’t enter His Kingdom.

I honestly do not see how the Grievous Sin and Still Be Saved Christian can read Matthew 7:22-23 with a straight face and actually think it’s not talking about them being lawless or in them doing iniquity. Then again, if a person does not receive the love of the truth, God sends a strong delusion for them to believe a lie. Once Scripture is rejected in favor of sin, the stronghold of the enemy has taken place in their thinking and it is extremely rare and or difficult for them to change at this point. Only a major intervention with a life event (similar to like with Samson) by the working of God and His mercy would they be able to change (if God knows they are capable to change and they have not hardened their hearts by the deceitfulness of sin). For the Christian who says they don’t lose salvation by sin is justifying sin because it goes against so many verses in the Bible that teach how sin can separate us from God (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62). Men today are rejecting God’s Word today on a grand scale in many different ways. If they are for holiness, they appear to reject the grace of God or the substitutionary atonement. Some holiness groups or teachers reject the Godhead (i.e. that God is three distinct persons, and yet He is one God). If they are for the grace of God, in many cases they think they can sin and still be saved on some level. The falling away has happened and is here.

I think perfection is the plumbline of what we all should be aiming for....not beating the air aimlessly but running the race so as to win it. Like Abraham believing that God is able to do what He promised. But the thing is it's accomplished through our weakness, not by the strength of our flesh. God's strength is PERFECTED in our weakness. Except you become as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom...the kingdom belongs to little children. Weak, vulnerable and dependent on the Lord. No one who is being perfected thinks they are deserving, superior or have arrived, it's much more the opposite....they are becoming too aware of the weakness and shortcomings of their self-life (carnal nature) to feel that way, and it's the grace of God to reveal this to a person.

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Sin separates from God

Agree

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

the Christian who says they don’t lose salvation by sin is justifying sin

I lost my salvation by continuing to sin in my heart. This was after He had delivered me from addictions, and forgiven my evil past. We may not fully understand the spiritual aspects of how and when The Lord forgives again, if ever. I live in hope, and despair at the same time.
Jesus said to the man He delivered 'go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you'

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I lost my salvation by continuing to sin in my heart. This was after He had delivered me from addictions, and forgiven my evil past. We may not fully understand the spiritual aspects of how and when The Lord forgives again, if ever. I live in hope, and despair at the same time.
Jesus said to the man He delivered 'go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you

Take comfort in the promise of 1 John 1:9, sister. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is of course if we are on the path of holy living in being perfected in obedience by the Spirit (2 Corinthians 7:1) (Galatians 6:8-9). Proverbs 28:13 says that he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. As long as we are truly forsaking sin, and not setting out to have the popular mindset like many Christians today (who have a mindset to sin again at some point and or who think they can sin and still be saved), then the Scriptures will be fulfilled (if we stay true to having faith in His Word). Trust in the LORD and cast your cares upon Him in everything, my friend. For I also have went prodigal (a few years later after I accepted Jesus as my Savior). Yes, I always believed in Jesus as my Savior (When I was prodigal), but I did not live my life for Jesus. But I never had the mindset like popular Christianity today (Whereby I thought I could just sin and still be saved my whole life). But I was enslaved by sins because my life was focused on myself more than God. Remember, Jesus left the 99 to go after the one lost sheep. Jesus prayed for Peter’s faith to not fail.

I rededicated my life to Jesus in following Him somewhere in 2010-2011.
That is when I really took the Word of God seriously and I started to be taught by God.

So Jesus cares for us and He desires for us to succeed In fighting the good fight of faith and laying hold on eternal life. Christians today do not even believe they are in a fight (Which runs contrary to 1 Timothy 6:12). They believe the battle was already won and thus they don’t have to do anything but believe in the finished work of the cross. What a mockery to Jesus and His grace (by what He has done for us on the cross). God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). But alas, all we can do is pray for them and love them and hope that some of them might see the truth of God’s Word before it is too late. I say this not to boast as if I am better. I am not. I am nothing, and Christ is everything. If it wasn’t for His grace, I would be doomed (just like everyone else). I realize that it is by the LORD that I can do anything good (John 15:5). It is by His grace that we can even do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10). So let us give praise and glory to the Lord Jesus in everything good done in our lives.

 

[-Phil]

All there is is perfection.
Perfectionism is an ism:
A “distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory”.
An “oppressive and especially discriminatory attitude or belief”.

The ism of perfectionism feels off to the perfection aware of the ism.
Perfection which is no doctrine or theory, and is all doctrines & theories.
Perfection which is causeless, or, without cause.
Perfection which is not oppressive or discriminatory.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All there is is perfection.
Perfectionism is an ism:
A “distinctive doctrine, cause, or theory”.
An “oppressive and especially discriminatory attitude or belief”.

The ism of perfectionism feels off to the perfection aware of the ism.
Perfection which is no doctrine or theory, and is all doctrines & theories.
Perfection which is causeless, or, without cause.
Perfection which is not oppressive or discriminatory.

Doctrine is one definition from “ism.”
Doctrine is a teaching. Does God teach us to be perfect in the Bible? Yes.
So it’s not untrue to use ”ism” attached to Sinless Perfection.
Also, “ism” has multiple definitions. You cannot choose all the definitions for ”ism” as being one definition here.
In this case, it would be a doctrine or teaching in the Bible.
Granted, we should shoot for the goal of speaking more in line with the faith and according to what is written and with us all saying the same thing (1 Corinthians 1:10) (2 Corinthians 4:13). But it technically would not be inaccurate to use the word “ism” when speaking, and we should not cause division over such a thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1. Have a desire to stop all sinning practices (& thoughts). Also, believe that The Lord can deliver.
2. Take every thought captive to obey Christ. As sin begins in the mind.
3. Make every physical, and mental effort to avoid 'the' sin. One by one.

Then wait for The Lord to do the rest, and 'when' He does, give Him ALL the glory. Take none for ourselves, as this is a major stumbling block.
Point 2 is key.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:23

Love this list. I would only add one point, though, sister. They cannot think they can sin and still be saved. Most Christians today believe you cannot lose or endanger your salvation by sin. Living holy would be useless if they have the wrong mindset on sin and in telling others about how the Father only sees Jesus when they sin (By their having faith in the finished work of the cross). It’s unbiblical to believe in Jesus for salvation and yet justify the idea that one can sin and still be saved.

Gotquestions article double speaks (Like many Christians today). They say that a believer will progressively live more holy (Whatever that means) and yet they say that a believer who has backslidden into a lifestyle of sin is still saved.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

Is a backsliding / backslidden Christian still saved? How far can a true Christian backslide?

www.gotquestions.org

So this article is false and wrong. They appear to be for holy living but they are not for that at all.
Their standard of morality is not consistent.
For if one believes they can live a prodigal life in sin with the thinking they are saved, then they will think they can do that their whole lives and just repent at the last moment or towards the end of their life. They are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

Love this list. I would only add one point, though, brother. They cannot think they can sin and still be saved. Most Christians today believe you cannot lose or endanger your salvation by sin. Living holy would be useless if they have the wrong mindset on sin and in telling others about how the Father only sees Jesus when they sin (By their having faith in the finished work of the cross). It’s unbiblical to believe in Jesus for salvation and yet justify the idea that one can sin and still be saved.

Gotquestions article double speaks (Like many Christians today). They say that a believer will progressively live more holy (Whatever that means) and yet they say that a believer who has backslidden into a lifestyle of sin is still saved.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

Is a backsliding / backslidden Christian still saved? How far can a true Christian backslide?

www.gotquestions.org

So this article is false and wrong. They appear to be for holy living but they are not for that at all.
Their standard of morality is not consistent.
For if one believes they can live a prodigal life in sin with the thinking they are saved, then they will think they can do that their whole lives and just repent at the last moment or towards the end of their life. They are turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

Yes, thankyou. I totally agree. I refuse to give gotquestions any attention, and I'm certainly not osas.
Sanctification always causes contention, its like people don't want to be set free from sin. Which says a lot about Christianity today.
The state of sanctification, perfection etc (which I have experienced) is the born again state, and it is amazing. I am convinced that without being born again, a person is not saved. John 3

 

[-Phil]

Doctrine is one definition from “ism.”
Doctrine is a teaching. Does God teach us to be perfect in the Bible? Yes. lol

No. That’s a fundamental misunderstanding, and more relevantly, that misunderstanding is felt.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No. That’s a fundamental misunderstanding, and more relevantly, that misunderstanding is felt.

No reason to divide over a minor issue like this. The importance is agreeing that Christ is God, and His grace saves and that grace leads us to live holy lives (glorifying Him).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, thankyou. I totally agree. I refuse to give gotquestions any attention, and I'm certainly not osas.

I believe that while Christians like them may not understand sin and salvation, they do at times get some things in the Bible correct. I find sometimes Christians like them challenge me to relook at the Word again. Many times they are wrong, but on occasion they have been right on certain topics and have offered some insightful things that are true. Granted, I do understand not wanting to listen to them at all. We each have our own unique path with the Lord to follow by the leading of His Spirit. So if is best for you to follow the Lord’s teaching alone, praise be unto the LORD. We each learn differently. I have changed theologically on certain things as I grew in my knowledge of God’s Word over the years. I try to stay open to what God’s Word says always.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word? Here is my list. #1. I used to believe we had to follow the Old Testament laws in addition to the New Testament laws. Until one day I discovered verses that the New Covenant began with Christ's death and...

www.christianforums.com

Sanctification always causes contention, its like people don't want to be set free from sin. Which says a lot about Christianity today.

Indeed. I agree. But the key is we should love and pray for them (even if we strongly disagree).
We need to always be reminded that we are nothing and Christ is everything and He deserves all the praise and glory.

The state of sanctification, perfection etc (which I have experienced) is the born again state, and it is amazing. I am convinced that without being born again, a person is not saved. John 3

When I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior in 1992 by a mini comic tract, I was changed radically by the Lord Jesus Christ. I used to be an atheist, and it was like a light that went on inside of me. I felt a love, joy, and peace that I had never known before and I wanted everyone to feel that way. I believe I was born again spiritually - no doubt about it. People in Bible groups knew I had a fire and passion for God that was unlike any they had seen before. I threw out my comics on the street, role playing games, etcetera. But… it was all God. So I see being born again taking place when we are first saved by faith in the Lord.

Galatians 3:26 says:
”For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

John 1:12 says:
”But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

I believe we are first saved by God’s grace through faith without works in our Initial Salvation. This is totally a belief alone when we are first saved. But faith does not remain as a belief alone when we live out our faith in the Sanctification of the Spirit (in living a holy life). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is a secondary aspect of salvation that says God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is a call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14) (Not that it is the gospel).

But we can agree to disagree on the timing of being born again. I think the most important part is that we agree on being saved by God’s grace and in living holy unto the LORD Jesus Christ as apart of God’s plan of salvation.

Now, I do believe that those who justify sin as a believer (as if that is all they ever knew) have never been born again to begin with. A person who is born again spiritually will not have the mindset or heart to justify sin. They need to truly seek forgiveness with Jesus over their past life of sin and desire to sin no more. This to me is true repentance. It’s turning away from sin whereby God can change their heart on a spiritual level radically.