The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

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When one uses 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to be a slave to sin (when that is not what it is saying) it is to justify sin. The same is true when Christians use Romans 7:14-24 as an excuse to sin on some level. To say one is not sinless means one is not seeking to be that way and thereby they are justifying sin. Proof? Do you believe you can lose your salvation by sin? If not, then obeying God is optional or only when it is convenient or in your best interest. But Jesus warned how even looking upon a woman in lust can cause our bodies to be cast into hellfire (Matthew 5:28-30).

I'll just say again . . . 1 Corinthians 4, the first part of the chapter, Paul explains that he's not qualified to know whether he's actually sinning or not, so how is it you are???

This to me is the bottom line here. I don't believe either you or I are, or will be in this life, qualified to know whether we've ceased from sin or not, so this conversation actually has no point to it.

Not to mention we all seem to have different ideas of what sin and righteousness are. It seems to me that the more someone says that sin ends your rebirth, the more liberal ideas they have of what is and isn't sin.

"The Bible doesn't say I have to love God ALL the time!"

Yeah.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you look upon a woman with lust in your heart, or are you "incapable" of doing so?

Why are you looking to me or another person?
Is that how you build your faith?
The Bible says we walk by faith and not by sight.

2 Corinthians 5:7
”For we walk by faith, not by sight”

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

So if you are to build your faith, then you should look to the Bible to do so and not yourself, or anyone around you.
Remember, Noah was called a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5). Noah and his family (eight people) were the only ones who made it on the ark and the rest of the world was destroyed by a global flood. If you lived during Noah’s time and you listened to Noah preaching righteousness (because he was a preacher of righteousness), and you said that nobody can live righteously because you never seen anyone live righteously (because the whole world at that time was wicked), that would not invalidate God’s call for a person to live righteously just because you have not seen it (Involving your wicked neighbors during Noah’s time).

Matthew 24:37
”But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

Also see: 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

Also, think. Why would Jesus warn us against lusting after a woman with our souls being in danger? If such words by our Lord no longer apply then why did Jesus gives us this warning in the first place. It would sound like a useless scare tactic by Jesus giving us this warning in Matthew 5:28-30 If you simply disregard it as not being possible to be able to obey. Where does Jesus conclude at the end of the sermon on the mount that his whole point was that you cannot obey Him and you just need to believe in the finished work of the cross only?

What about sins of omission?

According to one source on the internet: A sin of omission is a sin committed because of neglecting to do what is right.

I would say read John 15:4-6, Matthew 25:14-30, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62 (cf. 1 Corinthians 9:16), 1 John 2:10-11 (cf. 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15) (Note: This loving of our brother is in deed and truth - 1 John 3:18; 1 John 3:17 it involves helping our brother in need if we have this world’s goods). 1 Corinthians 13 would be the motivation (i.e. which is love) behind these loving actions. No real care or love for people or God but going through the motions will not help a person. We have to genuinely love (Which is only possible by Jesus Christ). Also read Luke 10:25-28.

Note: Will you read these verses above carefully in prayer or will you just brush them aside?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And you choose to impugn my motivations. As if! As if I despise truth! Rubbish!

Remember the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked (See: Jeremiah 17:9).

Romans 7:14-24 is used as an excuse to sin by many Christians today and they do so at the expense of ignoring or twisting other verses in Scripture that teaches you can overcome sin (1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24, John 5:14, John 8:11).

Jesus basically said a slave to sin will not abide in the house forever (i.e. the house of Christ forever) In John 8:34-35.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.​

35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.” (John 8:34-35) (NKJV).​

This means this will happen:

41 “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;​

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:41-42).​

#1. The Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels gather out of HIS KINGDOM.
#2. These angels of Jesus will gather out all who do iniquity (sin).
#3. These angels of Jesus will cast those (in HIS Kingdom) who do iniquity into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Don’t let these words in Scripture be snatched out your heart by the devil.

But I really do want good things, wonderful and holy and righteous things for you!

Much love!

This is not possible if you are teaching also that a believer does not lose salvation if they sin (Which goes against the teachings of our Lord Jesus who taught sin can destroy our souls in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, etcetera). For if one can sin and still be saved, then that is what one will do or they will be lazy or lukewarm to live for the Lord in living righteously. It’s like a speed limit on the highway. If you live in area where the cops do not enforce the speed limit on highways, you will notice that the people tend to all speed like crazy. But if you live in an area where the cops are all over the highway with speed traps, then you will notice that most people drive more reserved and they don’t drive recklessly and insanely fast like a flying dragon is behind them (seeking to kill them).

 

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that Paul is still a slave to sin as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

Again and again and again you put false words into my mouth. When will you stop? Is that righteousness? To falsely, unfairly, portray me before others? Is that what "sinlessness" looks like? Or is it "bearing false witness"?

My view of Paul:

Romans 7:20-25 KJV
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

As I've said, those who say they don't sin tend to have a very liberal view of what is OK for them to do without having to call it sin.

My idea of what sin is, it's about the most stringent I've heard.

And I'm the one that "justifies sin"?

Much love!

 

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Remember the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked (See: Jeremiah 17:9).

Your heart?

Much love!

 

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It’s like a speed limit on the highway. If you live in area where the cops do not enforce the speed limit on highways, you will notice that the people tend to all speed like crazy. But if you live in an area where the cops are all over the highway with speed traps, then you will notice that most people drive more reserved and they don’t drive recklessly and insanely fast like a flying dragon is behind them (seeking to kill them).

Is that how you drive? You only obey traffic laws because you fear enforcement?

It seems like this is to you the heart of the matter, that you believe no one will stop sinning unless they are under threat of death. Is that your thinking?

I believe we stop sinning because we've been freed from sin, and it is our joy to stop. We have to learn how to do that. We have to learn to recognize what is of our flesh and what is of our spirit, and we have to learn how to control our flesh so it doesn't get in the way of our spirit.

Much love!

 

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I already laid forth my case of what Romans 7:14-24 and I know you reject it because you prefer the idea that you can sin and still be saved on some level (i.e. you say that you don’t become unborn by sin - implying you can sin and still be saved or that you don’t lose salvation by sin).

I called you on your claim of my intellectual dishonesty, and you deflected with saying, "the heart is deceiptful . . ."

That is true deflection! You claim that I disagree with your interpretation of this passage because I prefer the idea that I can sin and be saved, when the fact is, I disagree because your interpretation does not agree with the writing of the passage. It simply says something else.

I've described what it says, I've shown detail on how it is that this is what it says. You've never refuted my presentations, showing somehow that the wording actually says something different, or something like this.

And now you will defend your "right" to declare me to be dishonest, and I guess that is to satisfy yourself that I really am wrong. Or something, whatever it is that people do that sort of thing.

"You prefer to think you can sin and be saved, and your heart is deceptive, so don't bother trying to say otherwise . . ." I know, those weren't exactly your words. Say so if you think otherwise.

In the meantime, I find everyone reveals themselves in their words. And there are more than one sort of words. There are those we intend to reflect on ourselves, and those we do not intend to do so, but they do so just the same.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'll just say again . . . 1 Corinthians 4, the first part of the chapter, Paul explains that he's not qualified to know whether he's actually sinning or not, so how is it you are???

Paul is not referring to not knowing about certain sins in 1 Corinthians 4:1-5.

1 Corinthians 4:1-5 (NKJV)
1 “Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.”

This is context to the Corinthians boasting in Paul, and others.

1 Corinthians 3:21-22 (NKJV)
21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours:
22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas…”

Causing divisions was a sin on behalf of the Corinthians.
Paul said to the Corinthians that they were carnal and there was envy and strife among them, as well (1 Corinthians 3:3).
Paul mentions the sins of strife and envy in Galatians 5:19-21, and says that they which do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
This is why Paul says if you defile the temple, you will be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17). But Paul is not referring to his own sins in 1 Corinthians 4:1-5. That would be a distortion of the text to justify sin.

Again, you need to be born again so as not to have the mindset of reading the Scriptures as a means to justify sin (When it does not teach such a thing).

This to me is the bottom line here. I don't believe either you or I are, or will be in this life, qualified to know whether we've ceased from sin or not, so this conversation actually has no point to it.

Believers should focus on their own life and not the lives of another servant unless they are blatantly rebelling against God openly.
There is a point to this discussion on overcoming sin because the Bible does teach that a believer can do so (See again 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24, John 5:14, John 8:11).

Not to mention we all seem to have different ideas of what sin and righteousness are. It seems to me that the more someone says that sin ends your rebirth, the more liberal ideas they have of what is and isn't sin.

There is imputed righteousness by a belief alone (Romans 4).
This is in our Initial Salvation. We do continue to believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 as a part of righteousness.
But there is also doing righteousness as a part of the faith, too.
He that does righteousness is righteous, too (See: 1 John 3:7).
He that does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10).

"The Bible doesn't say I have to love God ALL the time!"

Yeah.

Much love!

Proverbs 17:17
”A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.”

John 15:14 (NKJV)
”You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.”

Also, the first greatest command says we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. This would imply to the uttermost of our being at all time. If a person only loves God sometimes, and not all of the time, then they are not truly loving God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength. They are not making the Lord their God the only God in their life.

 

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4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.

Focus on this part here . . .

Much love!

 

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Again, you need to be born again so as not to have the mindset of reading the Scriptures as a means to justify sin (When it does not teach such a thing).

Are you now saying I'm not born again?

That's even against the rules, but that aside, well, are you?

Much love!

 

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There is imputed righteousness by a belief alone (Romans 4).
This is in our Initial Salvation. We do continue to believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 as a part of righteousness.
But there is also doing righteousness as a part of the faith, too.
He that does righteousness is righteous, too (See: 1 John 3:7).
He that does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10).

Ephesians 4:20-24 KJV
20) But ye have not so learned Christ;
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I called you on your claim of my intellectual dishonesty, and you deflected with saying, "the heart is deceiptful . . ."

That is true deflection! You claim that I disagree with your interpretation of this passage because I prefer the idea that I can sin and be saved, when the fact is, I disagree because your interpretation does not agree with the writing of the passage. It simply says something else.

I've described what it says, I've shown detail on how it is that this is what it says. You've never refuted my presentations, showing somehow that the wording actually says something different, or something like this.

And now you will defend your "right" to declare me to be dishonest, and I guess that is to satisfy yourself that I really am wrong. Or something, whatever it is that people do that sort of thing.

"You prefer to think you can sin and be saved, and your heart is deceptive, so don't bother trying to say otherwise . . ." I know, those weren't exactly your words. Say so if you think otherwise.

In the meantime, I find everyone reveals themselves in their words. And there are more than one sort of words. There are those we intend to reflect on ourselves, and those we do not intend to do so, but they do so just the same.

Much love!

Again, if you have the mindset that you don’t lose salvation by sin and you think Paul struggled with sin and was saved in Romans 7:14-24, then you will defend the wrong interpretation on thinking one can sin and still be saved on some level (not habitual sin). If you wish things were truly different, and you wanted to hold to the actual Bible’s teaching like I do on this topic in that salvation is conditional and we cannot justify sin, then you would be open to being corrected by the Word of God, or you are persisting to deny something deep within yourself that you cannot recognize or see. You may think you may not want to sin or not to justify sin, but if you are taking the Romans 7:14-24 sin excuse interpretation, then that is exactly what you are defending. An excuse to sin on some level (Whether you realize that or not).

 

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Note: Will you read these verses above carefully in prayer or will you just brush them aside?

That's my question to you.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ephesians 4:20-24 KJV
20) But ye have not so learned Christ;
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

You totally bypassed the context again.

Ephesians 4:17-20
17 “This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;”

 

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and you wanted to hold to the actual Bible’s teaching like I do on this topic in that salvation is conditional

So to confirm . . . you believe that when you are born again, become a new creation, that should you sin, that you will cease to be born again, and will again be only the Adamic creature, but not the new creation. And that should you repent from that sin, confessing and receiving forgiveness for that sin, you will be born anew from God.

Is that correct? This is your understanding?

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's my question to you.

Much love!

Right now you have a mindset that you can sin and still be saved because you said that a person who sins cannot be unborn (i.e. they cannot lose their salvation). But there are plenty of warnings by our Lord that can sin can separate our soul from God - See again Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, 1 Timothy 5:8, Galatians 5:19-21).

So you are not going to accept certain Scriptures. The devil will snatch them out of your heart because you don’t believe them.

 

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You totally bypassed the context again.

How so?

Much love!

 

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So you are not going to accept certain Scriptures.

And you aren't stopping misrepresenting me. Because I don't agree with you.

What do you call it when people say false things?

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So to confirm . . . you believe that when you are born again, become a new creation, that should you sin, that you will cease to be born again, and will again be only the Adamic creature, but not the new creation. And that should you repent from that sin, confessing and receiving forgiveness for that sin, you will be born anew from God.

Is that correct? This is your understanding?

Much love!

It is best not to go beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 1:10) (2 Corinthians 4:13).
The Bible says we need to be born again to enter the Kingdom.
But In Luke 15 in the parable of the prodigal son: We learn that when the son came home from his prodigal life and sought forgiveness with his father, the father said that his son was dead, and he is alive AGAIN. The son did not die physically so it is speaking in spiritual terms. He died spiritually while living it up with prostitutes, and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father. James 5:19-20 also teaches the same truth. Check it for yourself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And you aren't stopping misrepresenting me. Because I don't agree with you.

What do you call it when people say false things?

Much love!

I am not a mind reader but if you reject the Word of God (in certain places) there is a reason or motivation behind why you are doing so.
You have my apologies if my claim does not fit what your actual motivations are.
But again, rejecting the Word of God (in certain places) stems from something within us that is not good.

So… you are saying that you wish Romans 7:14-24 is not true?
You wish you did not struggle with sin like the apostle Paul did?
If that is what you are saying and you truly desired to change…. There is hope. You can change.
You can accept the Bible’s teaching as it really is.
You can Continue in His Word and you will Know the truth and the truth will set you free (See: John 8:31-32).