The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

There are plenty of Hyper Grace Christians I have met over the years who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.
They think they are above sin when they do sin and that Jesus is their proxy whenever they sin. Meaning, they don’t think the Father sees their sin but the Father only sees Jesus in that person instead. This is not how things work. Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.

But there are other believers who disagree with the Hyper Grace crowd, but yet themselves also believe they are slaves to sin in some way in this life. They say they don’t practice sin, but they commit sin on occasion. Most of them generally never really say how often they sin though. They also say you don’t lose salvation or endanger your salvation by sin, either. So again, they are also teaching you can sin and still be saved. So there is not much of a difference between the Hyper Grace Christian today and those who say they are not Hyper Grace but also use 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin on occasion this side of Heaven. It’s unfortunate. I have a close friend who believes like most of Christianity today. I try to be diplomatic with him and not condemning because he is my friend. I do really love him in Christ and we have great discussions. The thing is… I cannot change what the Bible says. I know there are many things in Scripture he is not dealing with (despite my love for him in Christ).

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

"To turn the grace of God into an encouragement to sin, is the sure way to the nethermost hell"

John Wesley

 

[-Phil]

OK, thanks! I won't try then.

Much love!

What’s said can be understood, just as real isn’t a duality can be understood. Typically, a lot of deflections & projections of a priori assumptions come up before understanding what’s being said. Like wise, unbelievably perhaps, I am is not a duality, and therein there is in truth no understanding.

 

[bbyrd009]

the sound of one hand clapping in 3, 2, 1…
lol sry, couldnt help it

 

[mailmandan]

"To turn the grace of God into an encouragement to sin, is the sure way to the nethermost hell"

John Wesley

In Jude 1:4, we read about those who turn the grace of God into a license for sin/immorality/licentiousness. As we continue to read we discover that these ungodly men have crept in unnoticed and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19) In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1) Jude exhorts believers to contend earnestly for the faith.

 

[Lambano]

Matthew 5:48

Interesting that you should pick that one.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors, do they not do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Even the Gentiles, do they not do the same? 48 Therefore thou shalt be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (From the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:43-48)

The context is that perfection requires loving our enemies. Doing good to those who hate us. Blessing those who curse us. Turning the other cheek. Giving more to those who steal from us. Lending without expecting repayment. Doing good without expecting reward or even simple gratitude.

35 But love your enemies and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil people. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. (Sermon on the Plain, Luke 6:27-36)

Make no bones about it, Jesus DOES call us to love some unlovable people and do good things for people who hate us. THIS IS HARD.

(Though usually we find ways around this one, like by redefining what "doing good to our enemies" is.)

 

[Lambano]

Here's what perfection requires:

17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do so that I may inherit eternal life?” 18 But Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not give false testimony, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth.” 21 Looking at him, Jesus loved him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

"How's that working for you?" (Shut up, Dr. Phil!)

Count the cost.

 

[mailmandan]

Here's what perfection requires:

17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do so that I may inherit eternal life?” 18 But Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not give false testimony, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth.” 21 Looking at him, Jesus loved him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

"How's that working for you?" (Shut up, Dr. Phil!)

Count the cost.

Notice how this young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and seemed to believe that he qualified for heaven under those terms, yet that was not the case and Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which demonstrated that he has not even kept the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Matthew 22:37) and also kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. (John 3:15-18)

The young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches. (Matthew 19:21-23) The young man went away sad because he could not part from his wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

..No one is good except God alone. (Matthew 19:18)

In of ourselves. Romans 3:10 - As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

 

[Lambano]

Real perfectionism was taught by John Wesley and his followers, and also by Charles Finney and some influenced by him. Wesleyans have called this doctrine “Christian Perfection,” and connected it with the experience of a “second work of grace” after regeneration which essentially negates the power of the old sinful nature in the believer.

Wesley never claimed to have achieved it himself. "Moving on to perfection" is an art a disciple of Christ should pursue, not a goal we are required to achieve. It's the pursuit that is important, not our achievements.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Jude 1:4, we read about those who turn the grace of God into a license for sin/immorality/licentiousness. As we continue to read we discover that these ungodly men have crept in unnoticed and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19) In CONTRAST with those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1) Jude exhorts believers to contend earnestly for the faith.

Titus 1:16 says there are vain deceivers who can deny God by being reprobate unto every good work. Obviously if salvation is in just believing in Jesus for salvation (or believing in the finished work of the cross), and it is in nothing you do, then one will not really care to live that holy life and do the good work, and keep themselves unspotted from the world. They will disbelieve Scripture at every turn like Matthew 5:28-30, 1 Timothy 5:8, Galatians 6:8-9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, etcetera. In fact, those who are worldly minded will promote worldly minded sinful TV shows like Seinfeld, etcetera.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wesley never claimed to have achieved it himself. "Moving on to perfection" is an art a disciple of Christ should pursue, not a goal we are required to achieve. It's the pursuit that is important, not our achievements.

But the Bible clearly teaches you can overcome sin in this life.

1 Peter 4:1-2 says,
1 ”Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.”

So we are to arm ourselves in having the same mind as Christ in suffering in the flesh, and that person who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For we are to live to the rest of our time here (on Earth obviously) to the will of God, and not to the lusts of the flesh.

Galatians 5:24 says,
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

There appears to be an existence of those who are Christ’s who have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts because this verse states this very reality.

2 Corinthians 7:1 says,
”Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved,
let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit,
perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

Let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit….
Perfecting HOLINESS in the FEAR of God.

Are we to cleanse only some filthiness of the flesh and spirit?
No.
It says…. ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit we are to cleanse ourselves of.
This is a part of perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God.
If one fears God, they will forsake sin and not have a greasy grace mindset that they can sin and still be saved on some level because of a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior.

 

[Lambano]

But the Bible clearly teaches you can overcome sin in this life.

You do understand what the difference between an imperative and an indicative is, right? You do understand what finding our identity in Christ is, right?

I guess not. Oh well.

No guarantees we'll be successful. But whether we're successful isn't the point.

12 Not that I have already grasped it or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not regard myself as having taken hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore, all who are mature, let’s have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that to you as well. (Philippians 3:12-15)

This is the point.

 

[MatthewG]

No one is perfect.

You are only perfected in and by the Spirit of Christ - because he makes you right with God.

Can God deliver people from addictions and bondage(s)? I believe he is able to, but if not...

Notice - If NOT.

Then the Lord's Grace is still enough for them.

So what is the point of judging?

 

[Lambano]

We're arguing against strawmen, the imagined mindsets of our opponents. One side thinks the other is trying to justify a license to sin; the other side thinks their opponents are haughty and prideful and either unaware of the depths of their own sin or deceive themselves about it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Wesley never claimed to have achieved it himself. "Moving on to perfection" is an art a disciple of Christ should pursue, not a goal we are required to achieve. It's the pursuit that is important, not our achievements.

funny thing, imo, about Be perfect, as I am perfect is that no one really seems to approve of Yah's "perfection"
meaning that i would hesitate to even pursue such an obviously warped human goal, although i might surely have a different understanding than Wesley et al of just what "perfection" means

 

[MatthewG]

Why does John mention this is revelation?

…10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” 12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.…

 

[Lambano]

Notice how this young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and seemed to believe that he qualified for heaven under those terms, yet that was not the case and Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which demonstrated that he has not even kept the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Matthew 22:37) and also kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. (John 3:15-18)

The young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches. (Matthew 19:21-23) The young man went away sad because he could not part from his wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

..No one is good except God alone. (Matthew 19:18)

In of ourselves. Romans 3:10 - As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Have you ever been going along, thinking you’re doing pretty good, and have God show you where you’ve completely missed it, like Jesus does here with this young man? It’s not fun, though I can see why it had to be done.

 

[mailmandan]

View attachment 27692

No one is perfect.

So what is the point of judging?

It makes self promoters (like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector in Luke 18:9-14) who trust in themselves, that they are righteous and look down on others, feel really good about themselves. The heart of the issue for such people is PRIDE.

 

[mailmandan]

Have you ever been going along, thinking you’re doing pretty good, and have God show you where you’ve completely missed it, like Jesus does here with this young man? It’s not fun, though I can see why it had to be done.

Yes, and I'm sure that most of us have and this truly was a critical salvation moment for this young man.

 

[HIM]

View attachment 27692No one is perfect.

You are only perfected in and by the Spirit of Christ - because he makes you right with God.

Can God deliver people from addictions and bondage(s)? I believe he is able to, but if not...

Notice - If NOT.

Then the Lord's Grace is still enough for them.

So what is the point of judging?

Not true. In Grace there is the power to overcome. So we have no excuse. The Lord will not over look continued willful intent