The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[justbyfaith]

If Calvin was right about him you and several others hate God with a passion.

I think that you secretly hate the Lord with a passion, @Dave L.

For me receiving Jesus is surrender, the cessation of work.

That is excellent and bears repeating.

faith which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

By this you intend to say that salvation comes before faith. However, we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, Romans 5:2. Therefore faith is the catalyst for entering into grace. And since the Holy Spirit comes as the result of grace, I conclude that the faith that is a fruit of the Spirit is not the initial faith that we receive via the principle of Romans 10:17; but rather it is faithfulness (as it can be translated as such) once a person has become a recipient of grace.

You need to read Scripture more closely and get some godly preachers to help you understand the true Gospel.

Where to find one of those...

NO ONE chooses themselves into heaven by their will or determination.

If someone calls on the name of the Lord, will the Lord reject them/cast them out? I would really like your answer to this question.

Oh wait a minute...your answer is in the above statement...you believe that the Lord just might cast them out, since if they call on the name of the Lord they would be choosing themselves into heaven, if calling on the name of the Lord would absolutely save them. Yet Romans 10:13 is clear that calling on the name of the Lord will absolutely save them. And John 6:37 is clear that the Lord will in no wise cast out the person who comes to Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

edited post #961.

@"ByGrace"

 

[Phoneman777]

Revelation covers the entire New Covenant era and the new heavens and earth. You are trying to use something yet future to refute the truth of things present and past.

Revelation covers the span of time from when Jesus left until His return, the following 1,000 years, the resurrection, judgment, and destruction of sinners, and then the Earth made new. The churches, seals, and trumpets are parallel prophecies.

 

[Phoneman777]

Try this on for size...I read this in my studying today...

Then King Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the forced labor, and all Israel stoned him to death. And King Rehoboam made haste to mount his chariot to flee to Jerusalem.[1 Kings 12:18]

By using their (il)logic, even newborn babes, those sucking on their mother’s breast, stoned Adoram. It says all Israel, and all means all, and that’s all that all means, so even suckling babes threw stones at Adoram. :

Wrong. The only way the two would be the same is if proponents of our "inclusivity religion" claimed that nursing babes could make the choice for Christ, which they cannot.

 

[Phoneman777]

CAN'T WE JUST LOVE EACH OTHER!!!!!

Of course not. The "special people" have no more interest in rubbing shoulders with the "profane" than do those in an Eastern "caste" society who look down on others in abject poverty and say to themselves, "They must have really done evil to wind up being reincarnated into such a wretched state."

 

[marks]

Of course not. The "special people" have no more interest in rubbing shoulders with the "profane" than do those in an Eastern "caste" society who look down on others in abject poverty and say to themselves, "They must have really done evil to wind up being reincarnated into such a wretched state."

Maybe that's it. Maybe underneath it all there is the idea, "there just MUST be something wrong with them that God didn't choose them."

I'm of the mind that we are all one before God. It's this opposing view that makes us into 2 different groups of people.

But the Bible still addresses whosoever, to one group.

Much love!

 

[Phoneman777]

Oh the Luciferian comparison. Someone’s phone lines got snipped.

I've been waiting for any one of you Calvinists to explain why the "light" of Calvinism so closely resembles the "darkness" of Luciferianism, but so far not one of you has stepped up to the challenge.

I have no doubt that challenge will continue to go unmet.

 

[Phoneman777]

Most in the OT hated YAHWEH but thought they worshiped him. They made idols using his name and gave them credit for all that he did. And it's no different today. There are only 3 ways a person is thought to be saved. 1) People are saved by grace alone (Calvinism/Augustinianism). 2) People save themselves with God's help (Arminianism/semipelagianism). Or they save themselves without God's help (pelagianism/socinianism). Only one is true and scripture proves Calvinism correct in the matters of salvation by grace alone.

What's with this "Yahweh" stuff? There's no salvation by pronunciation, y'know.

 

[justbyfaith]

Or, 4) God completely saves them as the result of their faith in Him.

 

[Nancy]

Faith comes from the Holy Spirit one must have before they can truly believe.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

 

[Nancy]

What's with this "Yahweh" stuff? There's no salvation by pronunciation, y'know.

Lol

 

[Nancy]

Of course not. The "special people" have no more interest in rubbing shoulders with the "profane" than do those in an Eastern "caste" society who look down on others in abject poverty and say to themselves, "They must have really done evil to wind up being reincarnated into such a wretched state."

No, the "special" people are not so big on Love. And they find the doctrine of Grace to be heresy that is why they themselves find it hard to extend that grace to others...

 

[Nancy]

Faith is a work of the flesh?

I have to say that I see your understanding as warped to say the least.

I was just about to ask that same question, ha!

 

[justbyfaith]

flesh belief cannot save. And that is what you claim. True faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Faith that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit would not save either; since salvation would already be there in the person's life before faith came: since they have the Holy Spirit for no apparent reason apart from faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

no one having faith is not saved.

Then you are preaching to the choir. All of us have faith, whom you are trying to convince of your pov.

You should be going and evangelizing people who are truly lost (those who do not have faith).

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Very well and gracefully put Mark.

Yes very gracefully wrong and backwards

 

[justbyfaith]

Unless God opens our eyes, we can’t see it. Unless He opens our ears, we can’t hear it. Unless God opens the heart, we can’t receive it.

We put all of our salvation in God’s hands, you guys put it in your ability to either accept or reject it. One is Soli Deo Gloria, the other gloriam solum hominibus.

It seems to me that the implication behind Calvinistic teaching is that if I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour, there is the possibility that I am not saved; because it may be that the Lord did not choose me from before the foundations of the world. And also, that if I do not receive Jesus, there is the possibility that I am saved in spite of that.

However, Jesus said,

Jhn 10:9, I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Fact is, if I accept the good news and receive Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour, the Lord will in no wise cast me out (John 6:37).

For those of us who have received Him, the issue of inability is a moot point. Fact is, we have received Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.

Now for those that we know and love and care about, we would not want them to reject Christ, touting as an excuse that some Calvinist told them that they had inability and that therefore they are just "waiting on God" to save them apart from any decision on their part to receive Christ.

We believe that the issue of salvation is both important and urgent for the sinner who is being faced with the gospel message.

For it is written,

2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

We believe that a person must make a decision to receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour; or else they are not saved. The option to receive Him is always given to them in the ever-present tense now; and therefore they are not unable to receive Christ in the ever-present tense now.

If you know that the Lord is calling you to Himself in the present moment, then know that He has not made it impossible for you to come to Him in the present moment to receive Him as your Lord and Saviour. He is drawing you to Himself in the present moment; and you are able to make a decision to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems to me that the implication behind Calvinistic teaching is that if I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour, there is the possibility that I am not saved; because it may be that the Lord did not choose me from before the foundations of the world. And also, that if I do not receive Jesus, there is the possibility that I am saved in spite of that.

And Calvinism is supposed to be the doctrine that secures the helmet of salvation on your head; it is supposed to be the doctrine of "eternal security".

I find that it in all reality does the opposite.

To every Calvinist I ask the question, what makes you so special, that you were chosen and others weren't? from your perspective it certainly wasn't your faith.

Where do you get the understanding that you are chosen?

I would say that you are being presumptuous, in thinking that (your) god chose you when there is nothing you did to receive it.

For all you know you are deluded to think that you are chosen by the god of Calvinism for salvation; for all you know he predestinated you to hell.

 

[CoreIssue]

Not even close. You've not been misrepresented. Now, instead of making a claim to have been go fetch actual proof that your beliefs were misrepresented. So far all you've done is make a false assertion, but you've offered zero proof.

Now let's get to the facts. You've shown over and again, as well as @Nancy , @CoreIssue , @justbyfaith, @Enoch111 and many more that God saved you because of what you all did in your free will ability which is unbiblical.

Each of you get utterly offended when we show salvation is all of God and none of you, and you all come back with out of context scripture and personal opinion in order to go against the Soli Deo Gloria shown you.

Yours is a denial and disdain of the clear teaching of 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, a scripture you've shown that you don't accept or understand, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

We've been down this road, you have no biblical grounds for your gospel of meritorious salvation that God chose you because you did something. You do not preach nor do you understand the Gospel.

But go ahead, tell us more about you and how you did it, and that God chose you because you loved him while lost and dead in sin.

False claim.

I am saved by God's grace he gave me the faith ability to trust him to save me.

The only part I play is to bow to him and acceptance his free offer.

Now that I have accepted I belong to him, not myself.

 

[CoreIssue]

Laish, the question of "what happens to people who have not heard of Christ in this life?" is one separate from the Calvinistic/non question.

And separate from those who listen to a false Christ false gospel like Mormonism.