The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Nancy]

Most in the OT hated YAHWEH but thought they worshiped him. They made idols using his name and gave them credit for all that he did. And it's no different today. There are only 3 ways a person is thought to be saved. 1) People are saved by grace alone (Calvinism/Augustinianism). 2) People save themselves with God's help (Arminianism/semipelagianism). Or they save themselves without God's help (pelagianism/socinianism). Only one is true and scripture proves Calvinism correct in the matters of salvation by grace alone.

By Grace through faith, I would say. And, are we not God's "co-workers? "For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building." 1 Corinthians 3:9

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is based on a faulty understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9. In that passage, it should be clear that it is salvation that is not from ourselves and the gift of God; but that this is not referring to faith itself.

But faith is also a gift of God. You can’t say salvation comes from God, but faith comes from man. Both come from God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is based on a faulty understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9. In that passage, it should be clear that it is salvation that is not from ourselves and the gift of God; but that this is not referring to faith itself.

"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself."

Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

“We possess neither the ability, free will, power, nor the righteousness to repair ourselves and escape the wrath of God. It must all be God’s work, Christ’s work, or there is no salvation.”

Michael Horton

“God Himself supplies the necessary condition to come to Jesus. That’s why it is sola gratia, by grace alone, that we are saved.”

R.C. Sproul

“The gospel is the power of God. It does not depend upon me and my faithfulness. If it did we would all be lost. It is God’s power to keep, to justify and to sanctify and to glorify—to take us right into heaven itself. . . nothing can stop it.”

Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith and salvation happen simultaneously. One is not saved w/o having faith and no one having faith is not saved. They’re mutually inclusive.

Fruit develops over time.

"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself."

Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

“We possess neither the ability, free will, power, nor the righteousness to repair ourselves and escape the wrath of God. It must all be God’s work, Christ’s work, or there is no salvation.”

Michael Horton

“God Himself supplies the necessary condition to come to Jesus. That’s why it is sola gratia, by grace alone, that we are saved.”

R.C. Sproul

“The gospel is the power of God. It does not depend upon me and my faithfulness. If it did we would all be lost. It is God’s power to keep, to justify and to sanctify and to glorify—to take us right into heaven itself. . . nothing can stop it.”

Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

Mar 1:22, And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

The scribes taught by relying on the words of other men to substantiate their pov. I will go with those who speak with the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ; and who take the holy scriptures as the final authority.

 

[justbyfaith]

But faith is also a gift of God. You can’t say salvation comes from God, but faith comes from man. Both come from God.

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes. It’s an outside source...IOW...it doesn’t come from us, but God and His word.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes. It’s an outside source...IOW...it doesn’t come from us, but God and His word.

Indeed...however when we are faced with the word of the Lord we have the option of believing it or having unbelief concerning it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Fruit develops over time.



Mar 1:22, And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

The scribes taught by relying on the words of other men to substantiate their pov. I will go with those who speak with the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ; and who take the holy scriptures as the final authority.

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.[Ephesians 4:11-16]

God gives us teachers to help us along the way. That’s why we need to attend church and learn from those God has placed in our lives to help us better learn the word. These other teachers serve this purpose as well.

 

[justbyfaith]

At the same time, we do not need anyone to teach us, 1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:27.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Indeed...however when we are faced with the word of the Lord we have the option of believing it or having unbelief concerning it.

Unless God opens our eyes, we can’t see it. Unless He opens our ears, we can’t hear it. Unless God opens the heart, we can’t receive it.

We put all of our salvation in God’s hands, you guys put it in your ability to either accept or reject it. One is Soli Deo Gloria, the other gloriam solum hominibus.

 

[SovereignGrace]

At the same time, we do not need anyone to teach us, 1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:27.

Why go to church then?

 

[SovereignGrace]

At the same time, we do not need anyone to teach us, 1 John 2:20, 1 John 2:27.

This is such the haughty spirit, bruh. No wonder your theology is so off kilter.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

This is such the haughty spirit, bruh. No wonder your theology is so off kilter.

He reminds me of a preacher who was so proud of being ignorant that he prayed to become more ignorant, and his prayer was granted.

God must have made a mistake in sending teachers, pastors &c to the church, Ephesians 4:11 to, um, teach them?

 

[justbyfaith]

Why go to church then?

Because we can always learn from others in the body of Christ. However, we can learn just as easily through our own personal reading and the other is not really even needed.

This is such the haughty spirit, bruh. No wonder your theology is so off kilter.

Um, "bruh" ;), I think that I was merely stating almost verbatim what is contained in the verses referenced. So your issue is with the verses. You think that taking the Bible at face value will produce a haughty spirit, then I think that your premise is "off-kilter".

Mine isn't.

You go by the teachings of men; I go by the teaching of what the holy scripture says to me at any given moment.

I try to stay open to what the Holy Spirit might want to say to me at any given moment.

And He certainly does not tell me to agree to a doctrine that would lead people to feel that they do not need to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation.

But if grace comes before faith, then faith isn't necessary.

Look at it from the perspective of an evangelist.

If the unbelieving mind would take a doctrine as saying that they can have salvation apart from Jesus Christ (even faith in Him); then that doctrine is detrimental to that person coming to know Jesus Christ through a saving faith in Him.

That person can resist placing their faith in Jesus Christ with extra power behind their reasoning, saying that they can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ, since grace comes before faith according to Calvinistic theology.

If Calvinism be true, then the unbeliever need not place his or her faith in Christ; they will be saved or lost based on God's predetermined choice regardless of whether there is any faith on their part.

Because grace comes first and not as the result of faith; and therefore faith is not necessary for salvation.

However, these ideas are contrary to what the holy scripture teaches.

 

[justbyfaith]

He reminds me of a preacher who was so proud of being ignorant that he prayed to become more ignorant, and his prayer was granted.

God must have made a mistake in sending teachers, pastors &c to the church, Ephesians 4:11 to, um, teach them?

Now you are taking my words out of context, and your intent appears to be based in some sort of malice.

1Pe 2:1, Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 2:2, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:3, If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

Maybe you should take some scissors and cut these verses out of your Bible.

1Jo 2:20, But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jo 2:27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

He reminds me of a preacher who was so proud of being ignorant that he prayed to become more ignorant, and his prayer was granted.

God must have made a mistake in sending teachers, pastors &c to the church, Ephesians 4:11 to, um, teach them?

I even used Ephesians 4:11-16, too. He’s on an unsustainable path and stuff.

 

[marks]

NIV puts Romans 12:3 like this...

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Oh, now don't ask me to account for the translation of the NIV. We know those word "of you" are added by the translators, according to what they thought the verse is saying, but not all agree, and the fact is that the words do not appear in the text, nor are they intrinsic in "each".

Much love!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh, now don't ask me to account for the translation of the NIV. We know those word "of you" are added by the translators, according to what they thought the verse is saying, but not all agree, and the fact is that the words do not appear in the text, nor are they intrinsic in "each".

Much love!

But the context in any translation of Romans 12:1-3 is those who have been given the measure of faith by God are believers.

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.[Hebrews 12:1-2]

Again, the context is believers, not all men w/o exception.

 

[marks]

But it’s talking about the lost being under Satan’s influence, under his power, his authority. We have been delivered from this. So whole world refers to the lost, not all mankind w/o exception.

I'd have to say that's your take on the passage, just the same, those aren't the wordings used.

1 John 1:17-20
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

What if . . . "the whole world" meant "the whole world"?

Or, a much more serious question . . . what if it doesn't?

Where does it end that the Words God used don't actually mean what they say?

Jesus didn't ask for His disciples to be removed from the world, but that they would be protected from the evil. Because the whole world lies in wickedness.

Much love!

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'd have to say that's your take on the passage, just the same, those aren't the wordings used.

1 John 1:17-20
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

What if . . . "the whole world" meant "the whole world"?

Or, a much more serious question . . . what if it doesn't?

Where does it end that the Words God used don't actually mean what they say?

Jesus didn't ask for His disciples to be removed from the world, but that they would be protected from the evil. Because the whole world lies in wickedness.

Much love!

Believers don’t lie in wickedness. The whole world in context is unbelievers.