The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Preacher4Truth]

No, there is no glorifying man for making a decision. Rather, God is glorified althemore by a creation endowed with the ability to acknowledge or resist His glory, freely. Love toward the creator on part of the creature is not something that can be forced, lest it be not Love at all. The Calvinistic notion of Soli Deo Gloria is merely God sitting on His throne telling Himself how great He is. The true Soli Deo Gloria is God sitting on His throne in the midst of a creation that desires worshipping and serving Him out of genuine Love and reverence for His greatness, freely.

The latter is far more glorious.

You didn't genuinely love God when you were dead in trespasses and sins. To think and assert you or anyone else did is not Soli Deo Gloria, nor is it remotely true, the Gospel, or found in Scripture.

 

[Jay Ross]

1 John 2 New International Version (NIV)
2 My dear children, <--- (Born again believers) I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
...but also for..." <--- Unbelievers. ALL people. Not all will receive Him though and He knows who will (has) or will not (has not) receive Him.

Your silence in this post is commendable. :cool:

 

[Phoneman777]

Unfort I guess the literal claims of Exodus are pretty obviously not literal, a million-man exodus would leave an archeological record. Not saying that an Exodus did not occur tho

There have been archaeological finds substantiating the Exodus. But like the good doctor says, ancient Egyptians were like modern day Russians which never ever admitted to mistakes or embarrassing outcomes - and what could be more embarrassing than to have your entire nation turned upside down and ruined by the God of your multiplied-million slaves just before those slaves made a hasty exit, followed by an impulsive pursuit to reclaim them as your slaves only to have you and your army swept over and buried in a watery grave.

 

[Phoneman777]

Or something as silly as creating everything out of nothing .
Blessings
Bill

Ex nihilo creation by the Word of God is a thing. Man possessing and not possessing free will at the same time is not.

 

[Phoneman777]

1 John 2 New International Version (NIV)
2 My dear children, <--- (Born again believers) I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
...but also for..." <--- Unbelievers. ALL people. Not all will receive Him though and He knows who will (has) or will not (has not) receive Him.

Proof that the atonement is held out as a gift to anyone, not just a predetermined few.

 

[Nancy]

Your silence in this post is commendable. :cool:

Lol...If I were still new on these forums, I would not have been
But, you can feel free to blast away Jay :)

 

[Nancy]

Proof that the atonement is held out as a gift to anyone, not just a predetermined few.

Yep, among many more scriptures that are so simple :)
It is well with my soul...I kind of like that thing called "hope" ♥

 

[Jay Ross]

Lol...If I were still new on these forums, I would not have been
But, you can feel free to blast away Jay :)

My hammer is not big enough to crack the nuts open on this forum, but I am told that peanuts are a legume so that leave me confused and now I do not know how the monkeys here can be feed properly.






Shalom

 

[Nancy]

I can claim "subjective reasoning" on your part just as easily as you claim "out of context" on mine. However, what settles the issue is Hebrew Chiastic Structure. It exposes the flaw of Jesuit Futurism, which is why Jesuit Futurists ignore it.

In this case, a blind man can see the chiasm at work here: Paul goes back and forth, contrasting a problem and the solution - the problem introduced by the first Adam was "universal condemnation" so the solution provided by the Second Adam must be universal, as well.

The very idea of a "first Adam" and "Second Adam" alone is enough to establish that the solution provided by the One is intended to resolve the problem and resulting consequences caused by the other. However, if the problem is universal - "death passed upon all men" - the chaism demands the solution be universal, as well - "all men unto justification of life"...unless we ignore the chiasm too.

Spot on Post Phone!

 

[Nancy]

My hammer is not big enough to crack the nuts open on this forum, but I am told that peanuts are a legume so that leave me confused and now I do not know how the monkeys here can be feed properly.






Shalom

 

[Laish]

Ex nihilo creation by the Word of God is a thing. Man possessing and not possessing free will at the same time is not.

Ok at what time dose one stop being a slave to sin and get the free will to believe and why don’t all get this free will to chose Jesus ? Because obviously if you don’t chose Christ your still in sin and a slave to sin or is it not a sin to reject Christ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[friend of]

You didn't genuinely love God when you were dead in trespasses and sins. To think and assert you or anyone else did is not Soli Deo Gloria, nor is it remotely true, the Gospel, or found in Scripture.

When I was called to come to Christ, the option to ignore that call and go back to drinking the next day was still there. The concept of resisting the Holy Spirit is entirely biblical, the I in TULIP is not. Acts of the Apostles 7:51

 

[friend of]

Did you read it?

Yes. What are you getting at with it?

 

[Laish]

When I was called to come to Christ, the option to ignore that call and go back to drinking the next day was still there. The concept of resisting the Holy Spirit is entirely biblical, the I in TULIP is not. Acts of the Apostles 7:51

Resting yes we all did when we were in rebellion ,but who will circumcise the heart that they no longer resist?
Deuteronomy 30:6 Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Blessings
Bill

 

[bbyrd009]

There have been archaeological finds substantiating the Exodus. But like the good doctor says, ancient Egyptians were like modern day Russians which never ever admitted to mistakes or embarrassing outcomes - and what could be more embarrassing than to have your entire nation turned upside down and ruined by the God of your multiplied-million slaves just before those slaves made a hasty exit, followed by an impulsive pursuit to reclaim them as your slaves only to have you and your army swept over and buried in a watery grave.

I think most of the arch evidence you mention first has been debunked or called into question, I'm aware that a much smaller enclave has been substantiated, but the "chariots at the bottom of the Red Sea" thing got tossed a while back I think.

Anyway, I agree that the Egyptians would have sought to erase them in a literal Exodus scenario, but then archaeologists have means to detect that kind of thing too. Anyway, if you seek a literal Exodus I guess you will find one, but I suggest that if you go seeking without any premises you will find a different kind of Exodus, "God of the Vowel People" will be relevant there.

Bc we are also taught that "Hebrew has no vowels," right? Which is a lie, YHWH (a bad transliteration, as it turns out) are their vowels, you might even google "Hebrew has no vowels" or any of the other phrases in here and...test the theory, if you like. If you find any holes let me know if you would, ty

that isn't the direction I meant to go here, but I'll leave it for now

 

[Mjh29]

When I was called to come to Christ, the option to ignore that call and go back to drinking the next day was still there. The concept of resisting the Holy Spirit is entirely biblical, the I in TULIP is not. Acts of the Apostles 7:51

Isaiah 55:11
John 3:27
John 17:2
Romans 9:16
James 1:18
1 John 5:20

Man cannot resist the power of God. Theses verses do not have any options to resist in them; they simply say that God does things and humans respond.

As for Acts, this verse actually shows the need for the I in TULIP. If this is the state of the unregenerate man, as you claim it is, then how could anything BUT Irresistible Grace save men? If these men will resist the power of God, how can they in and of themselves be saved?

 

[Phoneman777]

Ok at what time dose one stop being a slave to sin and get the free will to believe

I think your premise is flawed - slavery robs us of freedom, not freewill. Every slave except those with a hole in their ear wills to be free and would exercise that will if given the opportunity.

What keeps sinners in bondage is not that they lack freewill, but that they think they’re already free.

 

[Phoneman777]

Here's an example;

A simple story about sovereignty and free will.

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid hops on the wagon, ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in to the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat wants to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and now the goat both choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God sends and controls the reasons they base their choices on.

London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession:Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

Your analogy doesn’t prove simultaneous existence and non-existence of freewill in man, only that the options placed before us for our freewill choosing vary in their appeal.

In this case, the choice to pursue a carrot vs. to not - while you sit in the wagon going nowhere while the goat decides which to choose.

“I place before you life and death, blessings and cursings. Therefore, CHOOSE life.”

 

[Dave L]

Your analogy doesn’t prove simultaneous existence and non-existence of freewill in man, only that the options placed before us for our freewill choosing vary in their appeal.

In this case, the choice to pursue a carrot vs. to not - while you sit in the wagon going nowhere while the goat decides which to choose.

“I place before you life and death, blessings and cursings. Therefore, CHOOSE life.”

We base every choice on the exact reason God uses to control us.

 

[Phoneman777]

When I was called to come to Christ, the option to ignore that call and go back to drinking the next day was still there. The concept of resisting the Holy Spirit is entirely biblical, the I in TULIP is not. Acts of the Apostles 7:51

You, sir, have violated established NATO treaties by dropping a 10 megaton truth bomb.