The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Nancy]

[QUOTE="SovereignGrace, post: 550199

"God did not create them evil, that’s what our belief gets labeled with. We do NOT believe God creates ANYONE evil. They were born dead in Adam. Just like the elect were born dead in Adam.[Ephesians 2:3] Only in grace and mercy are the elect saved. If grace is not free, then it’s no longer grace. If God has to offer salvation to everyone, then it ceases to be grace and becomes an obligation. He is not obligated to anyone."

Yes, all of us were born dead in Adam. Nobody could be saved without grace and mercy.
Grace is most definitely free and His mercies are new everyday :)
Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will, and to others (whom He foreknew their choices before the foundations of the earth) - He will use as vessels of dishonor to the good of His children. And He pours His wrath out on them according to His Justness.. as, He knew their hearts before the foundations of the world.
and ALL to His Glory, without taking away our freedom of choice.
Yeah, our God IS that good :) ♥

 

[Laish]

Aren’t the “yet sinners” classified as unsaved?

What part of Roman5 are you referencing? Witch verse ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[Nancy]

[QUOTE="SovereignGrace, post: 550199

"God did not create them evil, that’s what our belief gets labeled with. We do NOT believe God creates ANYONE evil. They were born dead in Adam. Just like the elect were born dead in Adam.[Ephesians 2:3] Only in grace and mercy are the elect saved. If grace is not free, then it’s no longer grace. If God has to offer salvation to everyone, then it ceases to be grace and becomes an obligation. He is not obligated to anyone."

Yes, all of us were born dead in Adam. Nobody could be saved without grace and mercy.
Grace is most definitely free and His mercies are new everyday :)
Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will, and to others (whom He foreknew their choices before the foundations of the earth) - He will use as vessels of dishonor to the good of His children. And He pours His wrath out on them according to His Justness.. as, He knew their hearts before the foundations of the world.
and ALL to His Glory, without taking away our freedom of choice.
Yeah, our God IS that good :) ♥

PS: As God already knew Pharaohs heart would be hardened (even the word tells us that he himself hardened his heart) Being the Divine Potter, He basically molded/hardened Pharaohs heart further to show His Awesomeness by parting the Red Sea and seeing as vengeance is His...He took vengeance for His chosen people. So, it just seems logical that Pharaoh had a choice to make and
didn't God actually give him "choices" to make? I do not see God playing games with us by, asking us to humble ourselves yet, not give the where withal to do so.
God Bless!
nancy

 

[Dave L]

PS: As God already knew Pharaohs heart would be hardened (even the word tells us that he himself hardened his heart) Being the Divine Potter, He basically molded/hardened Pharaohs heart further to show His Awesomeness by parting the Red Sea and seeing as vengeance is His...He took vengeance for His chosen people. So, it just seems logical that Pharaoh had a choice to make and
didn't God actually give him "choices" to make? I do not see God playing games with us by, asking us to humble ourselves yet, not give the where withal to do so.
God Bless!
nancy

As I understand, God commands us to do what we should but cannot. In this way he develops our dependence on him and stops us from trusting in the arm of the flesh.

 

[Nancy]

So even the saved are still under the power of Satan? The whole world is stated in 1 John 5:19. For your view to be correct, we, the saved, are still under his power.

No, I would not say we are ever under Satan's power! Yet, we are still influenced by him, especially through other people and their actions.

 

[Nancy]

As I understand, God commands us to do what we should but cannot. In this way he develops our dependence on him and stops us from trusting in the arm of the flesh.

Yes, I can agree with this Dave. I believe He wants us to totally depend on Him and His ways. When we cannot do what He wills, we simply need ask Him, as I believe that is the kind of humility and dependence He seeks..?
He sure knows that I depend on Him for every single thing! :)

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Aren’t the “yet sinners” classified as unsaved?

No...
It is speaking about the justified who now have peace with God...rom5:1

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...read verses 1-11...look when it says, we, us,the Holy Spirit in our hearts,etc.

 

[friend of]

If God has to offer salvation to everyone, then it ceases to be grace and becomes an obligation. He is not obligated to anyone.

Why would God ask us to pray for those outside the faith if their fate is sealed and nothing can change it?

1 Timothy 2:1-6

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL people, for kings and ALL who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. It is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. There is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Why would God ask us to pray for those outside the faith if their fate is sealed and nothing can change it?

1 Timothy 2:1-6

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for ALL people, for kings and ALL who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. It is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. There is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Because we don't know who is elect, and who is not. But God does; 2 Timothy 2:8-10, and so we preach. And there is evidence when one is converted it is due to the fact they were chosen/elect; 1 Thessalonians 1:4.

 

[friend of]

Because we don't know who is elect, and who is not. But God does; 2 Timothy 2:8-10, and so we preach. And there is evidence when one is converted it is due to the fact they

It is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Nancy]

The context is believers. Not the whole human race. If He died for the whole human race, the whole human race will be saved. The power of the cross is that powerful. It saves those it was intended to save.

1 John 2 New International Version (NIV)
2 My dear children, <--- (Born again believers) I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
...but also for..." <--- Unbelievers. ALL people. Not all will receive Him though and He knows who will (has) or will not (has not) receive Him.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

It is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Odd. It is noted you snipped off much of my response, with Scripture, kind of randomly. That's unfortunate because it shows you're just not willing to listen or grow in knowledge. Did you read the Scripture given? They support what I stated and are plain.

"All" doesn't mean every single person who has ever lived. Do you use any study helps to help you grow and understand, or are you one who believes "you need no one to teach you?"

 

[Phoneman777]

The context is believers. Not the whole human race. If He died for the whole human race, the whole human race will be saved. The power of the cross is that powerful. It saves those it was intended to save.

Bus fare home is $20.
You are broke.
I give the driver $20 and tell him it's for you.

You choose not to get on.

That's how Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Phoneman777]

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That’s the context. The Christ died for His sheep, they were sinners, dead in Adam. John 10:11, John 10:15 & Ephesians 5:25.

Sovereign Grace, Anthony D'Arienzo, Preacher4Truth, Dave L, I'm sure you all agree the word "all" in this verse refers to every person since Adam:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" - Romans 5:12​

So, why insist that "all" means "a select few of Adam's descendants" just six verses later?

"Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life." - Romans 5:18​

 

[Phoneman777]

What part of Roman5 are you referencing? Witch verse ?
Blessings
Bill

"...while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

 

[Laish]

Bus fare home is $20.
You are broke.
I give the driver $20 and tell him it's for you.

You choose not to get on.

That's how Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

Ok why don’t all get on the bus ? If you look at the number of people in the world only 31 of 100 people paid for gets on . Thats if you include everyone that calls themselves Christian.
So what’s so good about those that get on ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[friend of]

Because we don't know who is elect, and who is not. But God does; 2 Timothy 2:8-10, and so we preach. And there is evidence when one is converted it is due to the fact they were chosen/elect; 1 Thessalonians 1:4.

Those who believe are the elect.

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Why would Paul be forced to "endure" anything that the elect "may" obtain salvation? This verse reveals that an interaction with the gospel is required on our part.

Odd. It is noted you snipped off much of my response, with Scripture, kind of randomly. That's unfortunate because it shows you're just not willing to listen or grow in knowledge. Did you read the Scripture given? They support what I stated and are plain.

"All" doesn't mean every single person who has ever lived. Do you use any study helps to help you grow and understand, or are you one who believes "you need no one to teach you?"

Well, you just did the same thing with my scripture, honestly. ALL means ALL. Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. It does not say He only died for the sins of the elect, now does it?

 

[friend of]

Is Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice insufficient to save all who come to the cross?

 

[Laish]

Is Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice insufficient to save all who come to the cross?

It is power enough to do God’s will . Now is the Gospel powerful enough to draw all that God desires ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[friend of]

It is power enough to do God’s will . Now is the Gospel powerful enough to draw all that God desires ?

Of it's not, then you're arguing against God's omnipotence. Since sufficient scripture exists to establish the fact that God does desire ALL to be saved, the only logical answer as to why not all come to the cross to be saved must be attributed to a human failing; failure to obey and believe on the gospel.