The Fig Tree - symbol of the New Covenant Church

[TribulationSigns]

Matthew 23:32-34

• Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
• Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
• Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:"

The well oiled myth that the phrase this generation always refers to a particular span of that contemporary time, whether in 70AD or modern Israel, is clearly NOT the case. Here Christ references the previous people (their fathers) who lived before, and who killed and persecuted the Old Testamnt prophets, and includes them as this same generation (or family) of vipers and snakes. He also includes those who would come after and persecute His prophets. That proves it's not referring only to his contemporaries. Because it is self evident that if this word meant that all this generation (the way many understand the word) at that time were a bunch of snakes who couldn't escape the damnation of hell, then it would mean the wicked who came before them and after them, and killed the prophets and the Apostles, were not in that generation also. That contradicts the passage itself. The Apostles were of that physical generation "if" the word Generation really meant what the Praeterits (preterists) believe that it means. But obviously, Christ is not talking about that local contemporary physical generation, He is talking about those who are a family [gennema] of spiritual vipers or snakes.

Psalms 140:1-3

• "Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;
• Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war.
• They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah."

The adder is a type of viper or snake representing Satan, and these people are of that family of evil. Men who, out of the evil in their hearts, bring forth wicked fruit. In this we see that there is not only precedence for the word generation not used in reference to the present time, but many times the context itself demands that it not be understood that way. A generation of vipers are a evil family [gennema], kindred spirits with the Devil.

And we should also not lose sight of the fact that in order for All to be fulfilled in that physical generation (which Christ declared in Matthew chapter 24), the time He refers to must have all those things fulfilled. Not a few, not some, not most, but ALL. So the time when all will be fulfilled must be at the end of the world/age, only then will this generation of evil pass. When we study the context of Matthew chapter 24, it becomes abundantly clear that this end time period is what God is referring to when all will be fulfilled.

 

[Jay Ross]

How can the fullness of the Gentiles coming into the good olive tree of faith be the fullness of 'heathen' Gentiles who trample the "Sancturary and God's earthly hosts, by the heathen Gentiles"?

That is the question that you have to resolve when you have an understanding of the right context for verses 25b-26.

Your understanding has been gleaned from a bad theological understanding.

 

[Zao is life]

Matthew 24:32-34 (KJV) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The three, Matthew, Mark and Luke all indicate that knowing that the Kingdom of God is near, even at the doors, would be something so easily discernable that anyone observing trees in nature, especially the fig tree, should be able to understand that the Kingdom of God is near at hand, in fact at the doors. Through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, with the gift of tongues (unlearned languages), we have indisputable proof that the Kingdom of God was near at hand and even at the doors. It became apparent when the gift of tongues was given to Gentile converts to Christ, that the Kingdom of God was not limited to the Jews only, but that in Christ Gentiles too would enter into the Kingdom of God by grace through faith when hearing the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit and turn to Christ in repentance believing.

There is much contention about what generation Christ meant when He said "this generation shall not pass away, till all things are fulfilled or done". When we understand it was knowing the Kingdom of God was at hand, even at the doors that must be fulfilled to all nations throughout the world, the generation that will not pass away is not the Jewish generation who lived in the days of Christ. Nor is it the physical nation of Israel. Not even the last generation alive at His coming again. I believe it is the "chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." This generation I believe began with the first disciples of Christ to be saved, and as they obediently went out with the Gospel in power of the Spirit, chosen generation will continue to grow and prosper as more and more people are converted to Christ and daily added to their number. They, the "chosen generation" will not pass away until the knowledge that the Kingdom of God has come, and is at hand, even at the doors has been proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth...then shall the end come.

Looking forward to your feedback.

I don't believe the gift of tongues is the fig tree beginning to produce leaves.

The fruit of the Spirit is not the gifts of the Spirit.

I also don't know if this generation means since the apostles till now, or only the last of the last days generation. Jesus said there were some standing there who would not die before they see the Son of man coming in His glory.

Jesus cursed the fig tree. Then he gave it bearing fruit again as a sign that His return is near, even at the doors. But He says the same thing in His Revelation about the last days.

Sorry to express this as a maybe, but I have no interpretation of the fig tree bearing fruit, except that it refers to individual believers and the faithful part of the church collectively, so maybe that fruit will appear when the two witnesses appear and the gospel goes into all the world just before the final harvest, as in Revelation 14.

"Maybe" is no interpretation. It's a maybe. But I don't see the gifts of the Spirit being the same as the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love in action - love for one another as per Jesus' commandment, in action (just as both John and James said it must be seen by actions)

 

[Davy]

There are two separate entities, The House of Israel; the 10 Northern tribes and the House of Judah, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. Some people have intermixed, but they become part of the House they join, As do Gentiles as well, Ruth is the prime example.

Israel is represented by the vine and Judah by the fig tree. Isaiah 5:7

Isaiah 5 does NOT... point to Judah being the 'fig tree'.

The subject there is about a 'vineyard', and God called Judah His "pleasant plant", not a fig tree...

Isa 5:7
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
KJV

 

[Jay Ross]

Jesus cursed the fig tree. Then he gave it bearing fruit again as a sign that His return is near, even at the doors. But He says the same thing in His Revelation about the last days.

It is the context that we must find in statements like this.

What type of death was Jesus referring to? What is the time span between when Jesus made this statement to when He will return?

If we consider that the time span was going to be 3,000 plus years between when Jesus ascended and when He will return to Judge the peoples of the earth, then he was not talking about the person's physical death occurring some 3,000 plus years later.

It is my understanding that Jesus was speaking about the person experiencing the second death after Jesus comes to judge the peoples of the earth.

Jesus was expecting that the people who were standing around Him at that time would die a normal physical death in due time and that when He returned, they would be resurrected to Stand before Him to be judged at which time some would be judged to be righteous and receive everlasting Life, while those who were not considered to be righteous, they would experience the Second Death in the Lake of Fire.

If we cannot figure out the context of what is written in the scriptures, then we will not be able to understand what Jesus was stating.

Shalom

 

[Zao is life]

It is the context that we must find in statements like this.

What type of death was Jesus referring to? What is the time span between when Jesus made this statement to when He will return?

If we consider that the time span was going to be 3,000 plus years between when Jesus ascended and when He will return to Judge the peoples of the earth, then he was not talking about the person's physical death occurring some 3,000 plus years later.

It is my understanding that Jesus was speaking about the person experiencing the second death after Jesus comes to judge the peoples of the earth.

Jesus was expecting that the people who were standing around Him at that time would die a normal physical death in due time and that when He returned, they would be resurrected to Stand before Him to be judged at which time some would be judged to be righteous and receive everlasting Life, while those who were not considered to be righteous, they would experience the Second Death in the Lake of Fire.

If we cannot figure out the context of what is written in the scriptures, then we will not be able to understand what Jesus was stating.

Shalom

Yes I agree that the context of verse 28 is verse 27.

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The "some" that He was speaking about would have had to live for another 1992+ years, unless He was speaking of the second death (as you pointed out).

 

[rwb]

Matthew 23:32-34

• Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
• Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
• Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:"

The well oiled myth that the phrase this generation always refers to a particular span of that contemporary time, whether in 70AD or modern Israel, is clearly NOT the case. Here Christ references the previous people (their fathers) who lived before, and who killed and persecuted the Old Testamnt prophets, and includes them as this same generation (or family) of vipers and snakes. He also includes those who would come after and persecute His prophets. That proves it's not referring only to his contemporaries. Because it is self evident that if this word meant that all this generation (the way many understand the word) at that time were a bunch of snakes who couldn't escape the damnation of hell, then it would mean the wicked who came before them and after them, and killed the prophets and the Apostles, were not in that generation also. That contradicts the passage itself. The Apostles were of that physical generation "if" the word Generation really meant what the Praeterits (preterists) believe that it means. But obviously, Christ is not talking about that local contemporary physical generation, He is talking about those who are a family [gennema] of spiritual vipers or snakes.

Psalms 140:1-3

• "Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;
• Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war.
• They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah."

The adder is a type of viper or snake representing Satan, and these people are of that family of evil. Men who, out of the evil in their hearts, bring forth wicked fruit. In this we see that there is not only precedence for the word generation not used in reference to the present time, but many times the context itself demands that it not be understood that way. A generation of vipers are a evil family [gennema], kindred spirits with the Devil.

And we should also not lose sight of the fact that in order for All to be fulfilled in that physical generation (which Christ declared in Matthew chapter 24), the time He refers to must have all those things fulfilled. Not a few, not some, not most, but ALL. So the time when all will be fulfilled must be at the end of the world/age, only then will this generation of evil pass. When we study the context of Matthew chapter 24, it becomes abundantly clear that this end time period is what God is referring to when all will be fulfilled.

Thank you for this thoughtful and thorough reply. I know well your view and have even defended it, and in fact continue to defend the truth of it. There is no doubt in my mind that this evil generation shall be together with faithful believers upon this earth to the end of days. It makes sense to interpret "this generation" as that which was spawned from the evil one from the beginning of creation, until we come to the parable of the fig tree Christ told us to take notice of in the beginning days of the New Covenant through Christ that came to this world.

The parable of the fig tree, I believe, introduces us to another kind of generation. New, only in the sense that the long-awaited Messiah/Christ Jesus our Lord has finally come. Not new in respect of the spiritually Kingdom of God, having not existed before this moment in time. As you point out the Kingdom of God in heaven, a spiritual Kingdom, has always existed. But from that nation from which Christ has come, a new fig tree would begin to grow. It's important, especially for those first Jewish disciples of Christ to understand the old fig tree that symbolized Israel of old is no longer what theirs and every believer's focus should be on. Their focus and every disciple of Christ after them must give our utmost focus to the new fig tree. For it is the new fig tree that began to come to life through the cultivation and nurturing of these early Jewish disciples of Christ. They are the beginning of the New Covenant fig tree that is eternal and shall never pass away.

Christ had already warned His disciples not to put their hopes in Jerusalem of old and the Temple. When they showed admiration for these, Christ said they would not last, and that they would all be utterly destroyed. I believe in the parable of the fig tree, Christ warns once again about looking for fulfillment of a thriving, growing Kingdom of God that would not be found through the old fig tree, Israel of old, but another, new fig tree that would be known from the beginning by the new growth that began small, but blossoms into a fig tree whose branches reach to the uttermost parts of the earth.

After telling the parable of the fig tree, that speaks of when His disciples should know the nearness of the Lord, Him being at the doors, as the fig tree begins to show signs of life, Christ says "this generation" shall not pass away.

Matthew 24:32-35 (KJV) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Why would Christ connect the newly growing fig tree with "this generation" if He was not speaking of the "chosen generation" that shall never end as "this generation"?

I have come to believe the seed of Christ, those chosen from the foundation of the world, are symbolized by this newly growing fig tree, and "this generation" that shall never pass away. This generation cannot pass away, because the life through His Spirit we received through the sacrificial atoning blood of Christ at Calvary, when He defeated sin and death by His cross and resurrection can never die.

Psalm 22:30-31 (KJV) A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Psalm 33:12 (KJV) Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

The fig tree with new growth, began with twelve Jewish disciples for Christ, like the good olive tree that once also symbolized the Old Covenant nation. Christ tells all of His disciples how to grow the fig tree that began as a small remnant from the Jews. It grows and reproduces faith after its kind by proclaiming the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth in the power of the Holy Spirit. And one by one, each in their own order, men, women and children will grow together with the fig and olive tree, and the final number of souls that shall be saved will be innumerable. And as Christ's disciples take the message of Christ unto all the nations of the world, we must always nourish the new growth on the fig tree, so the tree will grow to mature faith and doctrine, that will continue to carry the message of Christ unto all the earth. As long as the Church on earth is busy building the spiritual Kingdom of God through His word and Spirit, "this generation" of faithful saints shall never pass away.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[rwb]

Your rebuttal presented is not against what I posted; it is against what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25b-26.

The Traditional translation is more in line with the replacement theology which is antisemitic.

Israel is still experiencing the visitation of the father's iniquities for their continual idolatrous worship during the first two ages on their Children and the Children's children in the third and the fourth age. The fourth age of the visitation of the father's iniquities has not yet run its full course and will end in around 25 years' time. The gathering of the kings of the earth will also take place at the end of the 4th age when Isaiah 24:21-22 judgements against the kings of the earth and the heavenly host will take place because of their combined trampling of God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts, Israel, over the full 2,300 years. The Daniel 8:14-15 time period of this prophecy began about 70 years after the death of Alexandra the Great and has continued up and until this present time.

In the Gospel of Luke, he records a number of Parables that speak to this present time in Chapters 14 and 19, where the same events are carried over on John and continued in the Book of Revelation.

What I see happening in this thread is the justification by Pre-tribbers for their belief that they will be raptured soon to avoid the Great tribulation by around 1,000 years and that because they have been "good and faithful servants" that they will return to rule over cities and regions with Christ because of their belief of their own righteousness.

Nothing is further from the truth as they are actually doing the work of the opposing master.

In Ezekiel 34 God speaks of His gathering of Israel to Himself where they are living scattered in all of the places where he had them driven, and that He will plant them in Israel's, i.e., Christ's, fertile soil and will teach them on the mountains, i.e., religion based on the foundation that Jesus is the Son of God. At this time, He will sprinkle them with water to cleanse them so that they can become His Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations and God will again enter into the renewal of this covenant that He had first entered into at Mt Sinai for the nation of Israel to become a Kingdom of Priest, a Holy Nation and His possession among the Nations.

But because of the blinkers that many Christians wear, they are not able to discern this happening before them, because their ears are being tickled with false theological understanding of God's plans being worked out before them.

Many people claim to have understanding, however, our understandings are lost within the reality of our unbelief.

Shalom

Replacement Theology is a misnomer, used by those who refuse to accept that "all Israel that shall be saved" is not an ethnic people, but spiritual people that are both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together in the good olive tree being supported by the Root (Christ).

The punishment for Israel of Old is exactly what Christ told them would come to pass against Jerusalem of Old and the Temple of Old. Their iniquity that filled up their sin was the rejection of their Messiah when Christ was crucified. Then as witness to the end of the Old Covenant nation as the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God on earth, God sent the Roman Army to utterly destroy the once Holy City, and the once Holy Temple. The punishment for Israel for their continual idolatrous worship came to a complete end in 70 AD when the Old vanished from the face of the earth.

The only way that we can rightly understand what is written in the prophesy of old, is through the lens of what is written in the New. We find fulfillment for all that is written both fulfilled and being fulfilled since Christ has come.

"Israel is still experiencing the visitation of the father's iniquities for their continual idolatrous worship during the first two ages on their Children and the Children's children in the third and the fourth age. The fourth age of the visitation of the father's iniquities has not yet run its full course and will end in around 25 years' time. The gathering of the kings of the earth will also take place at the end of the 4th age when Isaiah 24:21-22 judgements against the kings of the earth and the heavenly host will take place because of their combined trampling of God's sanctuary and His earthly hosts, Israel, over the full 2,300 years. The Daniel 8:14-15 time period of this prophecy began about 70 years after the death of Alexandra the Great and has continued up and until this present time."

What I see happening in this thread is the justification by Pre-tribbers for their belief that they will be raptured soon to avoid the Great tribulation by around 1,000 years and that because they have been "good and faithful servants" that they will return to rule over cities and regions with Christ because of their belief of their own righteousness.

I don't really care what Pre-tribbers beliefs are. This thread has nothing to do with Pretrib, nor a rapture followed by one thousand years for unrepentant sinners to become "good and faithful servants". I really don't know why you've read that into this thread??

 

[rwb]

I don't believe the gift of tongues is the fig tree beginning to produce leaves.

The fruit of the Spirit is not the gifts of the Spirit.

I also don't know if this generation means since the apostles till now, or only the last of the last days generation. Jesus said there were some standing there who would not die before they see the Son of man coming in His glory.

Jesus cursed the fig tree. Then he gave it bearing fruit again as a sign that His return is near, even at the doors. But He says the same thing in His Revelation about the last days.

Sorry to express this as a maybe, but I have no interpretation of the fig tree bearing fruit, except that it refers to individual believers and the faithful part of the church collectively, so maybe that fruit will appear when the two witnesses appear and the gospel goes into all the world just before the final harvest, as in Revelation 14.

"Maybe" is no interpretation. It's a maybe. But I don't see the gifts of the Spirit being the same as the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love in action - love for one another as per Jesus' commandment, in action (just as both John and James said it must be seen by actions)

When we understand the fig tree symbolizes faithful saints from every nation of the earth bearing the fruit of the Spirit, the gift of tongues does prove that salvation is not limited to Jews only, but the Gospel of salvation is now being extended unto all the Gentile nations of the earth.

Since the growth of the fig tree is what we are to look for, that we might know by their fruit those who are growing on the fig tree throughout the Gentile nations of the earth, knowing the spiritual life we have when we believe the Gospel, what other people shall never pass away? As TS points out, the evil generation begotten through the seeds of Satan, shall be with faithful saints until the end of days. But the generation of evil is not where Christ tells us our focus should be.

Did not some of those standing there with Christ, who did not die, know (see) the Kingdom of God had come with power? Were they not witnesses to the power of God coming down from on high as the Holy Spirit came upon those who believed? It is in this way of understanding the Kingdom of God that came to mankind is a spiritual Kingdom, and not a physical one on this earth.

Yes, Jesus did curse the fig tree, and that fig tree of old shall never again bear fruit. But then Christ tells His disciples to learn the parable of the fig tree as it brings forth life. Since He said the Gospel shall be preached in all the earth, is it not obvious that the green leaves on the fig tree would include Gentiles believers? The fig tree beginning to grow again was not something that would appear near the end of this age, it is the beginning of life that would come as the Gospel is proclaimed in the power of His Spirit. The nearness of Christ, with Him even at the doors, became true with His coming to earth a man. Since He has come, Christ is near and at the door for all who hear His Gospel message proclaimed in the power of His Spirit. Christ is the preaching of the Gospel through His Spirit as the way of Christ being in them.

Colossians 1:27-29 (KJV) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

I don't see the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit as the same either. The fruit of the Spirit, I believe, is something that should be evident in all who profess Christ as Savior and Lord.

Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

While the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to whosoever the Lord shall selectively give them.

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

1 Corinthians 12:4 (KJV) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 (KJV) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

One thing I am convinced overwhelmingly about, is that all the words Christ spoke to His disciples from the Mount of Olives must be discerned in a way that His words are applicable to His disciples in every age, to the end of days.

Maybe after giving some study to the fig tree Christ says His disciples should consider, your maybe might become less maybe?

 

[rwb]

It is the context that we must find in statements like this.

What type of death was Jesus referring to? What is the time span between when Jesus made this statement to when He will return?

If we consider that the time span was going to be 3,000 plus years between when Jesus ascended and when He will return to Judge the peoples of the earth, then he was not talking about the person's physical death occurring some 3,000 plus years later.

It is my understanding that Jesus was speaking about the person experiencing the second death after Jesus comes to judge the peoples of the earth.

Jesus was expecting that the people who were standing around Him at that time would die a normal physical death in due time and that when He returned, they would be resurrected to Stand before Him to be judged at which time some would be judged to be righteous and receive everlasting Life, while those who were not considered to be righteous, they would experience the Second Death in the Lake of Fire.

If we cannot figure out the context of what is written in the scriptures, then we will not be able to understand what Jesus was stating.

Shalom

Why do you place the coming of Christ with power only at His return? It's true that His second coming will not only be with power but also with great glory. That shall be because Christ came with power when He came to earth a man. And it is through this power He came with that He extends this power to His chosen disciples through the Holy Spirit that shall be in you.

Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Christ shows us proof that there were some with Him who would not die till they see (know/perceive) the Son of man coming in His Kingdom. The proof that He came in the Kingdom of God is known by His casting out devils by the Spirit of God.

Matthew 16:28 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The difficulty in understanding the teachings of Christ is that many, are like the Jews of Old, expecting, awaiting, looking forward to the Kingdom of God coming to this earth physically. For this reason they cannot grasp that when Christ came to earth a man, He came in the Kingdom of God. And we by grace through faith upon hearing the Gospel proclaimed in the power of His Spirit, man of faith have spiritually entered the Kingdom of God that is not of this world, but is in heaven.

Once we have entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God when we are born again of His Spirit, we belong to the fig tree that began to grow and show signs of life, and we too, like those first century Jewish disciples, are called to take up His cross, and be witnesses of the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth. And when the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, the last trumpet shall sound, in an hour coming when Christ will come again to claim His bride, the Church. And all things will be made new again.

 

[Zao is life]

I think you need to delve deeper into the meaning of the Greek words before you start to expand on what you believe was meant in the original Greek texts.

The traditional translation reads in this manner: -

25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved;

However, I would suggest that what is bold above should be understood in this fashion: -

This is the traditional understanding; however, I would suggest that a better understanding is made with reference to Daniel 8:13-14 and the trampling of the Sanctuary and God’s earthly hosts, by the heathen Gentiles.

A better translation would be: - “until the prophesied full time period of the ‘heathen’ Gentiles is complete, after which those of Israel will be saved;”

Sadly, your understanding is held by many Christian today.

People have only read this verse without considering the full council of the Scriptures.

Hope this helps your understanding.

I know this is a very sensitive topic, especially at this time when we see what is going on between Israel and the Arabs again, but let me stick my neck out again.

We have to look at Paul's timing for what he says in Romans 11:23-32, not our own timing.

Paul only gave one timing:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." -- Matthew 26:28

There is only one time God made a covenant with Israel to take away their sins. It's not going to be done a second time.

In Romans 11:23-32 Paul says the unbelieving natural branches who have been broken off are (have made themselves) enemies of the gospel (through their unbelief), but if they repent of their unbelief, God will grafted them back in again, and Paul gives three reasons why they will be grafted back in again:

1. because though they are enemies of the gospel and been broken off from Israel, they are still beloved because of God's love for, and promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

2. because God has had mercy on the Gentiles who believe, through their unbelief.

3. because God is able to graft them in again.

It's not as though this has not been going on for the last 2,000 years. Indeed, every time a Jewish person has turned away from unbelief to faith in Christ, that one has been grafted back in again. Hundreds of thousands of the natural branches have been saved through faith in Christ.

The words "covenant with them, when I take away their sins" tell us that:

(a) For the last 2,000 years every time a natural branch has turned from unbelief to faith in Christ, that one has been grafted back in again.

(b) Every time a Gentile likewise turns from whatever he was following to faith in Christ, that one is grafted in.

Paul tells us that this will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, i.e until Jesus returns.

The rest of the New Testament contains no verses or passages which talk about any ethnic group being saved and "restored" to God at the time Jesus returns. For example, the 7th trumpet is very clear where John wrote that when the 7th trumpet sounds, it will be the time for the judging of the dead, and the reward of the prophets and of the saints. Nothing is said about salvation and restoration to God for anyone still found in unbelief when that time comes:

"The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged, and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth." -- Revelation 11:18.

There isn't anything at all anywhere else in the New Testament where the return of Christ is spoken about - either by Jesus or by the apostles - that gives the slightest hint that the Kingdom of Christ and election of God will revert to the natural descendants of Israel when Christ returns.

The only passage in the New Testament that has been construed to be saying this, is the very passage where the words "My covenant with them when I take away their sins" has to be ignored in order to come up with such an interpretation.

But Jesus has already taken away their (and our) sins, and the only covenant that is associated with the forgiveness of sins is the New Covenant in Christ's blood. There's no second time.

ALL Israel will be saved simply means that the remnant of Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ, will be saved. ALL Israel was never the majority of the natural branches, nor the majority of the Gentiles. It has always been a remnant.

In Jeremiah 31:37 God says He will not reject ALL the descendants of Israel. Paul says the same thing in Romans 11:2-5, after having already said in Romans 9:

6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not ALL those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,
7 nor are ALL the children Abraham's true descendants; rather "through Isaac will your descendants be counted."

Isaac was the seed of promise, through whom the seed of promise would come who would make a covenant with them when He took away their sins.

And He has done so.​

 

[Episkopos]

How can Israel that shall be saved be an ethnic people since Israel that shall be saved is saved by the fullness of the Gentiles? Does it not stand to reason that since both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith are being grafted into the same good olive tree of faith, Israel that shall be saved are Israel of God; a spiritual, not natural people?

Amen. The "fulness of the Gentiles" is Ephraim...the fruit of the Northern tribes that were "sifted through the nations."

Joseph mean "increase". Basically fruit. Joseph's sons are Manasseh and Ephraim. (Ephraim means double fruit)

Gen 48:4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.
5 And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother (Ephraim) shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (Actually in Hebrew it says...a "fulness of Gentiles") Melo hagoyim.

 

[Zao is life]

Since He said the Gospel shall be preached in all the earth, is it not obvious that the green leaves on the fig tree would include Gentiles believers?

Maybe after giving some study to the fig tree Christ says His disciples should consider, your maybe might become less maybe?

I agree with everything you said in your post but the jury is still in session on your last sentence about what I said :)

Unless we suddenly see Jews en masse turning to Christ and going out into all the world sharing the gospel, there is no way that the fig tree showing signs that it's about to bear fruit just before the return of Christ, is the natural descendants of Israel.

In any case, Gentiles are also part of the Olive tree, so therefore their fruit is also part of the fig tree, even if Jews en masse turned to Christ soon before His return.

It's also true that the fig tree has born fruit ever since the apostles and first Christians began to bear fruit - and it was produced by the Spirit of God in them.

Now I've also started to wonder, since you began this thread, which has made me think a lot more about what Jesus said, if It could be that Jesus did not even mean what we think He meant by the analogy?

What I mean is, maybe He simply meant that just as surely as we know when a tree is soon to bear fruit, we will know He is near when we see the signs He had just been giving during His Olivet Discourse, and He used a tree - in this case, the fig tree - putting forth leaves merely to emphasize the point He was making about we need to understand by the signs He had given during His Olive Discourse that He is near, even at the doors?

If that's the case, then He was only talking about the signs He had just given during His Olivet Discourse, and wasn't talking about Christians bearing fruit at all, but was likening the events that will be surrounding us in the time leading up to His return to "the leaves" of the fig tree?

@rwb Also, in the very same analogy Jesus likened it to summer being near.

Remember, He was talking about His return and the events leading up to His return, which He had given as signs that we need to watch for, and then He used the analogy of a fig tree putting out leaves to emphasize the fact that just as we know that summer is near when a fig tree puts out leaves, we will know that He is near - even at the doors - when we see the signs He had just given.​

 

[Episkopos]

I know this is a very sensitive topic, especially at this time when we see what is going on between Israel and the Arabs again, but let me stick my neck out again.

We have to look at Paul's timing for what he says in Romans 11:23-32, not our own timing.

Paul only gave one timing:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." -- Matthew 26:28

There is only one time God made a covenant with Israel to take away their sins. It's not going to be done a second time.

In Romans 11:23-32 Paul says the unbelieving natural branches who have been broken off are (have made themselves) enemies of the gospel (through their unbelief), but if they repent of their unbelief, God will grafted them back in again, and Paul gives three reasons why they will be grafted back in again:

1. because though they are enemies of the gospel and been broken off from Israel, they are still beloved because of God's love for, and promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

2. because God has had mercy on the Gentiles who believe, through their unbelief.

3. because God is able to graft them in again.

It's not as though this has not been going on for the last 2,000 years. Indeed, every time a Jewish person has turned away from unbelief to faith in Christ, that one has been grafted back in again. Hundreds of thousands of the natural branches have been saved through faith in Christ.

The words "covenant with them, when I take away their sins" tell us that:

(a) For the last 2,000 years every time a natural branch has turned from unbelief to faith in Christ, that one has been grafted back in again.

(b) Every time a Gentile likewise turns from whatever he was following to faith in Christ, that one is grafted in.

Paul tells us that this will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, i.e until Jesus returns.

The rest of the New Testament contains no verses or passages which talk about any ethnic group being saved and "restored" to God at the time Jesus returns. For example, the 7th trumpet is very clear where John wrote that when the 7th trumpet sounds, it will be the time for the judging of the dead, and the reward of the prophets and of the saints. Nothing is said about salvation and restoration to God for anyone still found in unbelief when that time comes:

"The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged, and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth." -- Revelation 11:18.

There isn't anything at all anywhere else in the New Testament where the return of Christ is spoken about - either by Jesus or by the apostles - that gives the slightest hint that the Kingdom of Christ and election of God will revert to the natural descendants of Israel when Christ returns.

The only passage in the New Testament that has been construed to be saying this, is the very passage where the words "My covenant with them when I take away their sins" has to be ignored in order to come up with such an interpretation.

But Jesus has already taken away their (and our) sins, and the only covenant that is associated with the forgiveness of sins is the New Covenant in Christ's blood. There's no second time.

ALL Israel will be saved simply means that the remnant of Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ, will be saved. ALL Israel was never the majority of the natural branches, nor the majority of the Gentiles. It has always been a remnant.

In Jeremiah 31:37 God says He will not reject ALL the descendants of Israel. Paul says the same thing in Romans 11:2-5, after having already said in Romans 9:

6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not ALL those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,
7 nor are ALL the children Abraham's true descendants; rather "through Isaac will your descendants be counted."

Isaac was the seed of promise, through whom the seed of promise would come who would make a covenant with them when He took away their sins.

And He has done so.​

The term "all Israel" comes from the OT. Paul would have known the term because unlike so many moderns, he actually studied the bible. ;)

All Israel means Ephraim.

Notice how the bible explains it.

1 Kings 12:20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

The tribe of Judah occupied the southern kingdom. But "all Israel" was the Northern tribes...the 10 tribes, the lost tribes. Also called Ephraim. And Epraim is a fulness of Gentiles (Gen. 48:19).

Basically, When Ephraim (Gentile believers) are added to Manasseh (Jewish believers) we get.... spiritual Israel.

The Jews understand Manasseh prophetically as followers of Moses....basically themselves.

Have you heard of the raised nun? In the Jewish bible (MSS) there is a passage that refers to Manasseh but with a raised letter nun. That makes the reading "Moses." (Mem, sin, hey) This is very well understood by Jewish rabbis.

 

[rwb]

Unless we suddenly see Jews en masse turning to Christ and going out into all the world sharing the gospel, there is no way that the fig tree showing signs that it's about to bear fruit just before the return of Christ, is the natural descendants of Israel.

Not sure what I may have said to give you the impression that I believe the fig tree showing signs of life will ever be only the natural or Jewish branches? It was only in the beginning of the fig tree showing life that it was Jewish Apostles, sent out by Christ that were first to take the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth. Since them, the fig tree that began with Jewish disciples began to grow in every nation where the Gospel was proclaimed. The Gospel will never again be through ethnic Jews only, but through both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together, right up to the end of days.

I agree, both the good olive tree and the fig tree that bear fruit from every nation of the world through the Gospel sent in the power of the Holy Spirit.

What I mean is, maybe He simply meant that just as surely as we know when a tree is soon to bear fruit, we will know He is near when we see the signs He had just been giving during His Olivet Discourse, and He used a tree - in this case, the fig tree - putting forth leaves merely to emphasize the point He was making about we need to understand by the signs He had given during His Olive Discourse that He is near, even at the doors?

This would be true only if we understand the nearness of Christ as when He comes again. Can you see how Christ is near, even at the doors since He has come, and He is in whosoever believes the Gospel by grace through faith under the power of the Holy Spirit? Christ is near, and He has come to whosoever hears the Gospel and believes. The signs He gives us that shall precede His coming again are of signs that appear in the sun, moon, and stars of heaven, then every eye shall see (physical sight) the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

The fig tree beginning to show life is the sign I believe Christ says is to prove Christ has already come in His spiritual Kingdom, with great power, and is sending His disciples out with the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit so His spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete. Then we will see signs in the sky to alert us to His coming again.

 

[Keraz]

Isaiah 5 does NOT... point to Judah being the 'fig tree'.

The subject there is about a 'vineyard', and God called Judah His "pleasant plant", not a fig tree...

Isa 5:7
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
KJV

Other scriptures prove that Judah is represented by the fig tree' and Israel is the grape vine:
Jeremiah 8:13 (KJV) I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.

Hosea 9:10 (KJV) I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baal-peor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Joel 1:7 (KJV) He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

The curse in Matthew 21:19, applies to the Jews and they have never produced the fruit of the Spirit and never will. Their Judgment and punishment is coming and only a remnant will survive. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 29:1-4, Romane 9:27

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion! Perhaps you can biblically prove how misunderstanding grammar will show how Paul's words should be intrepreted?

Well if you do not understand how sentences are forms, modified etc., you cannot hope to properly understand what is written.

 

[Zao is life]

Not sure what I may have said to give you the impression that I believe the fig tree showing signs of life will ever be only the natural or Jewish branches?

Nothing. You never said it. I wasn't referring to what you said but there are others who believe the above is the case, so I mentioned it because that fallacy was part of the things I was talking about in my post.

It was only in the beginning of the fig tree showing life that it was Jewish Apostles, sent out by Christ that were first to take the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth. Since them, the fig tree that began with Jewish disciples began to grow in every nation where the Gospel was proclaimed. The Gospel will never again be through ethnic Jews only, but through both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together, right up to the end of days.

I agree.

The signs He gives us that shall precede His coming again are of signs that appear in the sun, moon, and stars of heaven, then every eye shall see (physical sight) the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

The signs He gives begins a lot earlier than the sun, moon and stars, IMO. Those signs are talking about what will occur immediately after the tribulation of the days of great tribulation, IMO.

But whether or not you agree, distracts from the fig tree and what Jesus meant

The fig tree beginning to show life is the sign I believe Christ says is to prove Christ has already come in His spiritual Kingdom, with great power, and is sending His disciples out with the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit so His spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete. Then we will see signs in the sky to alert us to His coming again.

Well I don't know about signs that Christ has already come in His Kingdom, other than the tongues on the Day of Pentecost and the miracles performed by the apostles, and the fact that people were being saved.

I don't think those signs are symbolized by the fig tree putting out leaves, only that the fig tree might be likened to the fruit of the Spirit being evident in believers, but the more I've though about it since my first post in this thread, the less I think that Jesus was giving the fig tree putting out leaves as a sign in its own right regarding anything that was or is coming, but was merely using the analogy to emphasize the fact that when we see the signs that He had given in His Olivet Discourse, we will know that He is near, even at the doors.​

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not at all. Understanding grammar which god created for us to communicate would show you so.

Well I shall give you a grammar lesson, free of charge,

Romans 11:

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


A) The Gentiles who come to faith are the wild olive branches grafted onto the place of Jewish blessing. the olive tree gentiles are grafted in are the natural Jewish tree. You declared it the other way around. vse. 24

B) Vse. 25 The subject is the partial blindness of Israel. It lasts UNTIL the full number of Gentiles are come in.

C) Vse 26&27 Once the full number of gentiles are come in- all Israel will be saved as was written and prophesied. Not because of Gentile machinations, but according to the promises of God to Israel!

D) Verse 28 The calling out of a set number of gentiles was prophesied several times in the OT. God adds an important but-- Israel is still beloeved.

E) The call of God to Israel is without repentance.

 

[Zao is life]

The term "all Israel" comes from the OT. Paul would have known the term because unlike so many moderns, he actually studied the bible. ;)

All Israel means Ephraim.

Notice how the bible explains it.

1 Kings 12:20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

The tribe of Judah occupied the southern kingdom. But "all Israel" was the Northern tribes...the 10 tribes, the lost tribes. Also called Ephraim. And Epraim is a fulness of Gentiles (Gen. 48:19).

Basically, When Ephraim (Gentile believers) are added to Manasseh (Jewish believers) we get.... spiritual Israel.

The Jews understand Manasseh prophetically as followers of Moses....basically themselves.

Have you heard of the raised nun? In the Jewish bible (MSS) there is a passage that refers to Manasseh but with a raised letter nun. That makes the reading "Moses." (Mem, sin, hey) This is very well understood by Jewish rabbis.

Yes I'm fully aware of the 10 tribes collectively being called Ephraim in the prophets, and of the words m'lo goyim in Gen.48:19. The 10 Northern tribes|Northern kingdom are called Ephraim, the house of Israel, or simply Israel, interchangeably (but Judah is also called Israel and Judah interchangeably, depending on the context).

It's where my choice of the name in my profile in these forums comes from.

The first promise God made to Abraham was that he would become the father of a multitude of goyim. God repeated it three times. It gets repeated a few times before Jacob's death (I can't remember where right now), but then it appears in Gen.48:19 as the fullness of the Gentiles.

Hosea 1:9-10 gets picked up by Paul in Romans 9:24-26, where Paul includes the Gentiles.

The New Covenant promise was made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah long after the house of Israel had ceased to exist as a nation before God, and had been exiled, and the Northern kingdom was no more - Jeremiah 31:31. The descendants of the 10 tribes intermarried with Gentiles, and so the ten tribes became "lost".

But Abraham was to become the father of a multitude of nations. The way this occurred was through his son Isaac, his grandson Jacob, and all Jacob's descendants, who were not all Jews. Jesus is a Jew. All nations of the earth are blessed through Him, the seed of Abraham. Faith in the Word of God was always the way to inherit the promise. This is why Paul said at the beginning of chapter 9 of Romans that not all who are born of Israel, are Israel.

I'm not aware of what you mention of what you said above about Manasseh and Moses. Very interesting.​