the false messianic age and the beginning of the day of the Lord

[Spiritual Israelite]

God's wrath, 1Thessalonians5:9, will take place in the great tribulation. That is when the "sudden" destruction will take place.

Define "the great tribulation". What does that entail exactly in your mind? And where is that indicated? Nowhere. The "sudden destruction" is said to occur when the day of the Lord arrives unexpectedly as a thief in the night. How does that fit in your view? According to Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12, the destruction that comes unexpectedly is by way of fire coming down on the entire earth. So, unless you define "great tribulation" as fire coming down on the entire earth, you are taking 1 Thess 5:2-3 out of context.

Saying "peace and safety' by the world right before the great tribulation will be because the world will think it has entered the messianic age.

You are not even looking at the context of what people saying "peace and safety" is about. It's not about people claiming world peace and safety. That is not at all the context of 1 Thessalonians 5. Read it carefully.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Notice here that Paul says NOTHING about the status of the world in this passage. Absolutely NOTHING. Instead, he is contrasting those who are in spiritual light with those who are in spiritual darkness. And he is saying that those who are in spiritual light will not be overtaken when the day of the Lord comes and they will not experience God's wrath when that day comes. Instead, we will all be changed to have immortal bodies. But, those who are in spiritual darkness will be overtaken with God's wrath by way of "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" when that day arrives.

So, because Paul is contrasting the fates of those who are in spiritual light with those who are in spiritual darkness when the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly, the context of them in spiritual darkness saying "peace and safety" is not in relation to world peace and safety. Instead, it's in relation to their own spiritual status. They falsely think that they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. But, they will find out otherwise if they are still alive when Jesus comes and do not repent before He comes. They will be destroyed suddenly and unexpectedly on that day.

 

[Davidpt]

So, because Paul is contrasting the fates of those who are in spiritual light with those who are in spiritual darkness when the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly, the context of them in spiritual darkness saying "peace and safety" is not in relation to world peace and safety. Instead, it's in relation to their own spiritual status. They falsely think that they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath. But, they will find out otherwise if they are still alive when Jesus comes and do not repent before He comes. They will be destroyed suddenly and unexpectedly on that day.

I tend to think it has to do with worshiping the beast and before the 2ws rise from the dead, that being when and why they are saying peace and safety at the time. After all, the text depicts them being merry at the time. Then look what happens next. The 2Ws rise from the dead and the 7th trumpet sounds shortly afterwards. IOW, the 7th trumpet is the sudden destruction they don't escape.

Something else to keep in mind is the following, regardless what it actually looks like when being fulfilled.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Can't imagine any of them saying peace and safety during any of that.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


But I can imagine them saying peace and safety per the above. We have to keep in mind, there has to be a point in time that they are initially saying peace and safety, that it has to have a starting point. The starting point would not be when the 2ws are giving their testimonies. It even says in verse 10 that these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Doesn't sound like anyone would be saying peace and safety at the time.

And yes, I realize, no one will likely literally be saying peace and safety, but that is beside the point. A time of peace and safety simply doesn't fit verse 5 and 6 but does fit verses 8-10, and that the 7th trumpet that soon follows fits to a T the sudden destruction meant in 1 Thessalonians 5.

But I guess that's the difference between Premil and Amil thinking. Premils tend to think chronology is relevant, Amils tend not to a lot of the time.

 

[Douggg]

We have to keep in mind, there has to be a point in time that they are initially saying peace and safety, that it has to have a starting point. The starting point would not be when the 2ws are giving their testimonies.

Well, a lot of activity will take place during the 1260 days of the two witnesses. Going from peace and safety global mindset, to war against the two witnesses.

So... You are right that during the time the two witnesses will be defending themselves by fire coming from their mouth - no one is going be saying peace and safety.

The catch is that the fire from their mouth defense takes place during a 75 days period at the end of their
1260 days.

1. The two witnesses will begin their 1260 days testimony at the start of the 7 years. Which also at that same time the peace and safety saying will begin, the world thinking it has entered the messianic age.

2. About three years will go by, when without warning the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4. Ending the false messianic age perception of the saying peace and safety.

3. Shorty thereafter, he will be killed and brought back to life as the beast. And the abomination of desolation image of the beast setup (beginning the Great Tribulation), 75 days before the two witnesses are killed. It is during that 75 days that the beast will make war on the two witnesses, and the two witnesses will kill anyone who tries to harm them - until the beast finally succeeds in killing them... on the exact mid-point of the seven years, day 1260.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I tend to think it has to do with worshiping the beast and before the 2ws rise from the dead, that being when and why they are saying peace and safety at the time. After all, the text depicts them being merry at the time. Then look what happens next. The 2Ws rise from the dead and the 7th trumpet sounds shortly afterwards. IOW, the 7th trumpet is the sudden destruction they don't escape.

Something else to keep in mind is the following, regardless what it actually looks like when being fulfilled.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Can't imagine any of them saying peace and safety during any of that.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


But I can imagine them saying peace and safety per the above. We have to keep in mind, there has to be a point in time that they are initially saying peace and safety, that it has to have a starting point. The starting point would not be when the 2ws are giving their testimonies. It even says in verse 10 that these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. Doesn't sound like anyone would be saying peace and safety at the time.

And yes, I realize, no one will likely literally be saying peace and safety, but that is beside the point. A time of peace and safety simply doesn't fit verse 5 and 6 but does fit verses 8-10, and that the 7th trumpet that soon follows fits to a T the sudden destruction meant in 1 Thessalonians 5.

But I guess that's the difference between Premil and Amil thinking. Premils tend to think chronology is relevant, Amils tend not to a lot of the time.

Can you address what I said in my post about the context of people saying "peace and safety"? Why is it that you reply to posts without even specifically addressing what was said in them? That's weird to me. It seems that you also think it relates to world peace and safety, but the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-9 does not support that idea. Instead, the context is talking about people in spiritual darkness thinking that they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath even though they are not. It has nothing to do with world peace and safety.

I do agree that the sudden destruction occurs at the seventh trumpet. That is when Jesus will return, which will be on the day of the Lord when He comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night.

 

[Douggg]

Instead, the context is talking about people in spiritual darkness thinking that they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath even though they are not

How do they know that God's wrath is imminent, as the Day of Lord begins like a thief in the night ?

1Thessalonians5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

You have it wrong. The saying peace and safety will be because the world will be thinking it has entered messianic age - totally obvious that the Day of the Lord is about to overtake them. They will be in spiritual darkness.

They are not going to be expecting the Antichrist to go into the temple, sit, claiming to have achieve God-hood. Triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord. 2Thessalonians2:4. When God's wrath is going to be poured out during the great tribulation that will shortly follow the Antichrist's act..

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How do they know that God's wrath is imminent, as the Day of Lord begins like a thief in the night ?

I didn't say that they know that. Where are you getting that idea from? I didn't say anything like that. Those who are in spiritual darkness have no idea that God's wrath is coming until it actually comes upon them suddenly when Jesus comes as a thief in the night.

1Thessalonians5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

You have it wrong.

LOL. That means nothing coming from you. I think I disagree with you at least 99% of the time, so you saying I'm wrong just makes me more confident that I'm right.

The saying peace and safety will be because the world will be thinking it has entered messianic age - totally obvious that the Day of the Lord is about to overtake them. They will be in spiritual darkness.

Where is this idea even remotely indicated in 1 Thess 5:2-9? Nowhere. You are making things up here. In that passage Paul is talking about people being in spiritual darkness and being oblivious about their spiritual status of being lost and of God being angry with them. They think they are spiritually at peace and safe from any consequences for their actions. The idea of world peace and safety has nothing to do with that passage at all, which is why there is no such thing mentioned in that passage.

They are not going to be expecting the Antichrist to go into the temple, sit, claiming to have achieve God-hood. Triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord. 2Thessalonians2:4. When God's wrath is going to be poured out during the great tribulation that will shortly follow the Antichrist's act..


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You have all these things happening over the course of years despite the fact that Paul indicates that the destruction that will accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord will be "sudden". There's nothing sudden about your false timeline of events in relation to the day of the Lord. Your doctrine does not fit what is written in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-9 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 at all.

 

[Douggg]

In that passage Paul is talking about people being in spiritual darkness and being oblivious about their spiritual status of being lost and of God being angry with them

The passage says...

1Thessalonians5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So according to your interpretation of the saying, Peace and safety, as being in spiritual darkness - when does that start ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul is speaking about a worldwide impacting event that causes the world to say "Peace and safety". That event will be when the Antichrist is anointed the King of Israel thought-to-be-messiah. And a false messianic age begins, with a false sense of "Peace and safety".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The passage says...

1Thessalonians5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So according to your interpretation of the saying, Peace and safety, as being in spiritual darkness - when does that start ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul is speaking about a worldwide impacting event that causes the world to say "Peace and safety". That event will be when the Antichrist is anointed the King of Israel thought-to-be-messiah. And a false messianic age begins, with a false sense of "Peace and safety".

Why did you not address what I actually said? Where in 1 Thess 5:2-9 is there any indication that Paul was talking about world peace and safety as opposed to people being in spiritual darkness and feeling spiritually at peace and safe from any consequences for their beliefs and actions? Why can't you address this first before asking questions?

As for your question, there isn't any specific thing that happens that will tell us when they will say "peace and safety". Paul is referring to a time when that type of attitude of people being in spiritual darkness and being oblivious to their spiritual status will be prevalent. You can't point to any specific thing to say when that will be the case any more than you can point to any specific event that will tell us when the days before Christ's coming are like the days of Noah and the days of Lot, as Jesus talked about (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30). It's just something that has to be spiritually discerned when you see things like many turning away from the faith and wickedness increasing as both Jesus and Paul talked about.

 

[Douggg]

As for your question, there isn't any specific thing that happens that will tell us when they will say "peace and safety". Paul is referring to a time when that type of attitude of people being in spiritual darkness and being oblivious to their spiritual status will be prevalent.

Well when does saying "peace and safety" start, because that is critical as to when the Day of the Lord will suddenly begin like a thief in the night ?

I don't hear the world saying "peace and safety" right now. Do you ? Doesn't the beginning of the Day of the Lord affect everyone on earth ?

1Thessalonians5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well when does saying "peace and safety" start,

I already addressed this. Did you not read what I said? Do you just read a couple words in other people's posts and then hit Reply without reading everything that was said? How can anyone say when the day of the Lord will begin when it's said to come unexpectedly as a thief in the night? I think we can know when it's near when seeing things like what Jesus talked about in the Olivet Discourse and what Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2 occurring, which are things like a mass falling away from the faith and the increase in wickedness in the world. Jesus said it will be like the days of Noah before He comes as a thief (Matt 24:35-51), so that is what to look for if you want to know when that day is near.

because that is critical as to when the Day of the Lord will suddenly begin like a thief in the night ?

It doesn't say anything about the day of the Lord suddenly beginning as if it is a period of time that will last for years, as you believe. It indicates that the day of the Lord will bring sudden destruction when it arrives unexpectedly as a thief in the night. This idea that the day of the Lord is some period of time lasting for years instead of being a sudden, global event, that will happen quickly is not supported by the text.

I don't hear the world saying "peace and safety" right now. Do you ?

LOL. No, but who cares? Are you not reading anything I'm saying? I've said multiple times now that the context has nothing to do with people claiming that there's world peace and safety. The context is in relation to people who are in spiritual darkness thinking that they are spiritually at peace and safe from the consequences of their sins and lack of faith. While they are thinking that way, the next thing they know they will be destroyed suddenly and unexpectedly. They won't see it coming.

Doesn't the beginning of the Day of the Lord affect everyone on earth ?

1Thessalonians5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Yes, it will affect everyone still left on the earth after we (the church) are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The destruction is sudden and it is complete. That is why Paul said "they shall not escape". Peter wrote about the exact same event in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and he made it very clear that it will be complete destruction on the earth by fire. You continue to not see the context of passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-9 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 because of your doctrinal bias.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. No, but who cares? Are you not reading anything I'm saying? I've said multiple times now that the context has nothing to do with people claiming that there's world peace and safety. The context is in relation to people who are in spiritual darkness thinking that they are spiritually at peace and safe from the consequences of their sins and lack of faith. While they are thinking that way, the next thing they know they will be destroyed suddenly and unexpectedly. They won't see it coming.

The text is when they are "saying" peace and safety... not just thinking peace and safety.

So there has to widespread verbal expression of "peace and safety" - not just their internal mindset.

what Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2 occurring, which are things like a mass falling away from the faith

The great falling away from belief by Christians that Jesus is the messiah - will take place during the false messianic age when people are saying peace and safety. The falling away will be because it will appear to many Christians weak in their faith and weak in their knowledge of the end times - that the Jews (Judaism) were right all along, and that the person who the Jews will have embraced as the messiah is actually the real messiah (but in reality is the Antichrist).

 

[covenantee]

that the Jews (Judaism) were right all along

They weren't right here:

Matthew 23
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

or here:

John 8
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

or here:

Acts 13
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

or here:

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the
uttermost.

So when did "all along" start?

 

[Douggg]

So when did "all along" start?

Of course the Jews (Judaism) will not be right when they embrace another as their King of Israel messiah. But when the Jews (Judaism) do embrace another as their messiah, it will appear convincing to many Christians, weak in their faith, that the Jews were right along in their rejection of Jesus. And thus those weak in their faith Christians will "fall away" from believing in Jesus.

 

[covenantee]

Of course the Jews (Judaism) will not be right when they embrace another as their King of Israel messiah. But when the Jews (Judaism) do embrace another as their messiah, it will appear convincing to many Christians, weak in their faith, that the Jews were right along in their rejection of Jesus. And thus those weak in their faith Christians will "fall away" from believing in Jesus.

You're describing those dispens who elevate the zionist antichrist to a level of or above Christ Himself.

They've been falling away and defiling the true Church ever since Darby and Scofield.

 

[Simonides]

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