the false messianic age and the beginning of the day of the Lord

[Douggg]

How else does the "sudden destruction" come if not by fire? Do you not believe in interpreting scripture with scripture, Douggg? If one passage (1 Thess 5:2-3) talks about the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night while bringing "sudden destruction" and another passage talks about the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night while bringing fire down on the entire earth, then we can put two and two together and see that the "sudden destruction" comes about by way of fire. Very simple. But, I know nothing is ever simple for you. You make everything far more complicated than it should be.


This is utter nonsense. There is no reason to think that the destruction that is said to occur when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night in 1 Thess 5:2-3 is somehow different than the destruction that is said to occur when the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night in 2 Peter 3:10-13. Only extreme doctrinal bias can keep someone from seeing that both passages are talking about the same event.

Does destruction during the great tribulation take place before or after the destruction of this present earth and its heaven ?

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great tribulation > then Jesus's return > then 1000 years > then last rebellion > then destruction of this present earth and its heaven > then Great White Throne Judgment > then eternity

 

[Davidpt]

Does destruction during the great tribulation take place before or after the destruction of this present earth and its heaven ?

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great tribulation > then Jesus's return > then 1000 years > then last rebellion > then destruction of this present earth and its heaven > then Great White Throne Judgment > then eternity

There is no way in a million years that anything recorded in 2 Peter 3 is meaning a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned. That makes nonsense out of what is recorded in 2 Peter 3 and other passages in both the OT and NT connected with what is recorded in 2 Peter 3.

What is recorded in Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21-22 pertaining to the new heavens and new earth are involving the same new heavens and new earth. There are not 2 different NHNE. And that most Premils already agree that the NHNE pertaining to Isaiah 65 involve the millennium after Christ returns. Yet you insist eternity doesn't even begin until after the great white throne judgment. If that is true you apparently don't agree any saints put on bodily immortality at the last trump when Christ returns. Because if they do put on bodily immortality at the last trump it is then ludicrous that eternity has not begun for them.

No one can begin bodily living forever unless eternity has literally begun for them.


BTW, Amils have the same problem if they too insist eternity doesn't begin until after the GWTJ. Because, clearly, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning, saints are already in immortal bodies before that judgment occurs. And once again, to be in immortal bodies means eternity has begun for these that put on bodily immortality since that obviously involves eternity, thus living forever in a new glorified body. And once again, that begins at the last trump, not during or after the GWTJ instead.

 

[Douggg]

There is no way in a million years that anything recorded in 2 Peter 3 is meaning a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned.

2Peter3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

David, is the destruction of this present heaven and earth in Revelation 20:11 ?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[Douggg]

There is no way in a million years that anything recorded in 2 Peter 3 is meaning a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned. That makes nonsense out of what is recorded in 2 Peter 3 and other passages in both the OT and NT connected with what is recorded in 2 Peter 3.

What is recorded in Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21-22 pertaining to the new heavens and new earth are involving the same new heavens and new earth. There are not 2 different NHNE. And that most Premils already agree that the NHNE pertaining to Isaiah 65 involve the millennium after Christ returns. Yet you insist eternity doesn't even begin until after the great white throne judgment. If that is true you apparently don't agree any saints put on bodily immortality at the last trump when Christ returns. Because if they do put on bodily immortality at the last trump it is then ludicrous that eternity has not begun for them.

No one can begin bodily living forever unless eternity has literally begun for them.


BTW, Amils have the same problem if they too insist eternity doesn't begin until after the GWTJ. Because, clearly, regardless when the GWTJ is meaning, saints are already in immortal bodies before that judgment occurs. And once again, to be in immortal bodies means eternity has begun for these that put on bodily immortality since that obviously involves eternity, thus living forever in a new glorified body. And once again, that begins at the last trump, not during or after the GWTJ instead.

David, you are unclear in what you mean.

please, put these events in the order that you think is correct...

great tribulation > then Jesus's return > then 1000 years > then last rebellion > then destruction of this present earth and its heaven > then Great White Throne Judgment > then eternity

 

[Davidpt]

2Peter3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

David, is the destruction of this present heaven and earth in Revelation 20:11 ?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

I can't see that fitting Premil nor Amil since both positions have saints already in immortal bodies before the GWTJ even begins. Even if the GWTJ happens the same day Christ returns, as Amil believes, the last trump is still meaning prior to the GWTJ. Therefore, as of the last trump, eternity initially begins. They don't have to wait until the NHNE in order for there to be no more death since to put on bodily immortality obviously already means no more death in their case. And that the last trump precedes everything, including the GWTJ and the NHNE.

 

[Davidpt]

David, you are unclear in what you mean.

please, put these events in the order that you think is correct...

great tribulation > then Jesus's return > then 1000 years > then last rebellion > then destruction of this present earth and its heaven > then Great White Throne Judgment > then eternity

great tribulation > then Jesus' return > then eternity > then destruction of this present earth and its heaven > then 1000 years > then last rebellion > then Great White Throne Judgment

IOW, the beginning of eternity begins with the 2nd coming and involves the destruction of this present earth and its heaven which leads to the beginning of the NHNE, thus Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21-22, and that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting eternity, then the GWTJ at the end of the thousand years after satan has a little season first. IOW, the same way the days of creation were a process rather than something instantaneous, so will the NHNE be.

It will be a process that begins with the 2nd coming and is not fully finished until the GWTJ has been completed. After all, it is ludicrous that once Christ returns that there won't be righteousness dwelling throughout the earth. And that 2 Peter 3:13 indicates that you can't have a place wherein dwelleth righteouness without it involving a NHNE. If satan is in the pit, the beast and fp are in the LOF, and that Christ and His saints are ruling the entire planet, this will not be a place wherein dwelleth righteousness? It is silly to think it wouldn't be. Is it going to be a place where there are still crooked judges, crooked courts, deciding things? Of course not, therefore, a place wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What promise?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Why not this promise, for one?

 

[Douggg]

great tribulation > then Jesus' return > then eternity > then destruction of this present earth and its heaven > then 1000 years > then last rebellion > then Great White Throne Judgment

The new heaven/new earth/new Jerusalem.

Where do you place that in your order of events ?

My position is.....

great tribulation > then Jesus's return > then 1000 years > then last rebellion > then destruction of this present earth and its heaven > then Great White Throne Judgment > then the new heaven/new earth/new Jerusalem > then eternity

 

[Douggg]

I can't see that fitting Premil nor Amil since both positions have saints already in immortal bodies before the GWTJ even begins.

Then what is meant by this portion in red, if not the destruction of this present earth and its heaven ?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[ewq1938]

Then what is meant by this portion in red, if not the destruction of this present earth and its heaven ?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

It means the location of the GWTJ is held in a place away from the heaven and Earth.

 

[Davidpt]

The new heaven/new earth/new Jerusalem.

Where do you place that in your order of events ?

At the beginning of the thousand years is where I place that. Either that or Amils are correct instead. IOW, if the new heaven/new earth/new Jerusalem can't logically fit the beginning of the thousand years, this likely means Amil is the correct position in that case.

The new Jerusalem involves the new heaven and new earth. The NHNE involve a place wherein dwelleth righteousness. You can't have one without the other(2 Peter 3:13). Once again, it is not fathomable that once Christ returns that it will still not be a place wherein dwelleth righteousness. As if it makes sense that Christ and His saints would be ruling the planet in an unrighteous manner rather than a righteous manner.

As if it makes sense that once Christ returns there are still going to be crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked politicians, crooked cops, etc, deciding matters throughout the earth, thus a place wherein dwelleth unrighteousness. Ummm, we already have a place like that now. Why would it still be a place like that once Christ returns? Why wouldn't it instead be a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, thus a NHNE(2 Peter 3:13)?

 

[Davidpt]

Then what is meant by this portion in red, if not the destruction of this present earth and its heaven ?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

I admit, it sounds like it could be meaning something like that. And if it is, Amil makes way better sense in that case, not Premil. The day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night in this age not an age after Christ has already returned and a thousand years have passed. Not only that, the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night only one time not multiple different times.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Look what the text says. How can any reasonable person possibly think that means a thousand years after Christ has returned? That a thousand years after Christ returned the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. That is a funny way to interpret that, meaning literally funny. Because, after all, the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night only one time. That is not hard to comprehend since it is a fact.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


Even though I don't agree with your timing of this, don't you argue that this is meaning prior to the start of great tribulation? Though, I don't agree with some of your interpretations, it's not like you are unintelligent or something. You are clearly intelligent, therefore, you are without excuse, which means you comprehend the following.

How then does it make good sense to apply 1 Thessalonians 5:2 to one time period then turn around and apply 2 Peter 3:10 to a totally different time period altogether? Do not both say the same thing, that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night? That obviously means the beginning of it since it wouldn't still need to come as a thief in the night again later if it already came as a thief in the night earlier. Once again, to come as a thief in the night implies the beginning of it. Obviously, it only has one beginning, not multiple different beginnings.

 

[Douggg]

As if it makes sense that once Christ returns there are still going to be crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked politicians, crooked cops, etc, deciding matters throughout the earth, thus a place wherein dwelleth unrighteousness. Ummm, we already have a place like that now. Why would it still be a place like that once Christ returns? Why wouldn't it instead be a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, thus a NHNE(2 Peter 3:13)?

David, when Jesus returns and rules here on earth during the 1000 years, He will rule the nations with a rod of iron, as will the saints who rule with him. So the crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked politicians, crooked cops, etc, deciding matters throughout the earth, will not be tolerated and allowed to operate as such.

"rule with a rod of iron" is in Revelation 2:27 (the saints), Revelation 12:5 (Jesus), Revelation 19:15 (Jesus, at His return).

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I place eternity as being when only righteousness dwells in the new heaven/new earth/new Jerusalem.

great tribulation > then Jesus's return > then 1000 years > then last rebellion > then destruction of this present earth and its heaven > then Great White Throne Judgment > then the new heaven/new earth/new Jerusalem > then eternity

 

[Douggg]

Even though I don't agree with your timing of this, don't you argue that this is meaning prior to the start of great tribulation? Though, I don't agree with some of your interpretations, it's not like you are unintelligent or something. You are clearly intelligent, therefore, you are without excuse, which means you comprehend the following.

Here's what I think the problem is. Not with us, as we are trying to figure out the discrepancy. But between Peter and Paul in their communicating.

Paul seems to be more exact in his communicating when the day of the Lord actually starts. And also regarding the rapture/resurrection event timing.

Peter, on the other hand, communicates in a more general sense, leaning to emphasize more about Christian behavior.

So the solution for us is take what Paul wrote and what John wrote in Revelation.... combining that information... into some sort of timeline. Then applying what Peter wrote concerning the destruction of this current heaven and earth and insert it into the timeline, at its proper place.

When we do that, we come up with the day of the Lord being in several segments - the final segment being eternity of the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem. The first segment being when Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does destruction during the great tribulation take place before or after the destruction of this present earth and its heaven ?

This question is not related to what I was talking about. The "sudden destruction" that occurs when the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2-3) will occur on the day Jesus returns. It will result in the burning up of the earth according to Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and will result in the new heavens and new earth that we look forward to in conjunction with the promise of His second coming (2 Peter 3:13).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is no way in a million years that anything recorded in 2 Peter 3 is meaning a thousand years and a little season after Christ has returned. That makes nonsense out of what is recorded in 2 Peter 3 and other passages in both the OT and NT connected with what is recorded in 2 Peter 3.

I agree, so why are you premil then? Very clearly 2 Peter 3:10-12 refers to the burning up of the heavens and the earth. You agree with amils like me that 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs when Christ returns. So, how can any mortals survive what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and continue to live as mortals on the earth after that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

At the beginning of the thousand years is where I place that. Either that or Amils are correct instead. IOW, if the new heaven/new earth/new Jerusalem can't logically fit the beginning of the thousand years, this likely means Amil is the correct position in that case.

The new Jerusalem involves the new heaven and new earth. The NHNE involve a place wherein dwelleth righteousness. You can't have one without the other(2 Peter 3:13). Once again, it is not fathomable that once Christ returns that it will still not be a place wherein dwelleth righteousness. As if it makes sense that Christ and His saints would be ruling the planet in an unrighteous manner rather than a righteous manner.

As if it makes sense that once Christ returns there are still going to be crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked politicians, crooked cops, etc, deciding matters throughout the earth, thus a place wherein dwelleth unrighteousness. Ummm, we already have a place like that now. Why would it still be a place like that once Christ returns? Why wouldn't it instead be a place wherein dwelleth righteousness, thus a NHNE(2 Peter 3:13)?

Based on your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 don't you believe there will be at least some unrighteousness on the earth during the thousand years?

In my view, you take away from the significance of what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:13 unless you recognize that he was saying that the new heavens and new earth will be a place where righteousness dwells and ONLY righteousness dwells. And that will be forever. That's why John said regarding the conditions of the new heavens and new earth that there would be "no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev 21:4). In your view of the NHNE, there will still at least some unrighteousness there and death occurs there. Which I believe contradicts what Peter and John indicated about the NHNE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here's what I think the problem is. Not with us, as we are trying to figure out the discrepancy. But between Peter and Paul in their communicating.

This is only a problem with your doctrinal bias. Paul and Peter clearly wrote about the same event which the called "the day of the Lord" and they each describe destruction occurring upon its arrival. In 1 Thessalonians 5 Paul is not specific about what causes the destruction, but he said it will be "sudden" and he indicated that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". Peter was more specific about the event in terms of describing what will actually cause the destruction. It will be caused by fire. That would line up with Paul saying in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 that Jesus will be revealed "in flaming fire taking vengeance" on His enemies.

Paul seems to be more exact in his communicating when the day of the Lord actually starts. And also regarding the rapture/resurrection event timing.

What are you talking about here?

Peter, on the other hand, communicates in a more general sense, leaning to emphasize more about Christian behavior.

Paul had a lot to say about Christian behavior in relation to the day of the Lord as well. Did you not read this passage?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So the solution for us is take what Paul wrote and what John wrote in Revelation.... combining that information... into some sort of timeline. Then applying what Peter wrote concerning the destruction of this current heaven and earth and insert it into the timeline, at its proper place.

How exactly does Paul saying that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night bringing "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" any different from Peter saying that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night bringing destruction by fire on the entire earth from which no mortals will escape? It's not. But, because of your doctrine, you have to make them into two different events.

When we do that, we come up with the day of the Lord being in several segments - the final segment being eternity of the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem. The first segment being when Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Where does Paul ever say that the day of the Lord starts with what is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:4? I don't see that. That idea seems to only have come from your imagination.

 

[Douggg]

This is only a problem with your doctrinal bias. Paul and Peter clearly wrote about the same event which the called "the day of the Lord" and they each describe destruction occurring upon its arrival. In 1 Thessalonians 5 Paul is not specific about what causes the destruction, but he said it will be "sudden" and he indicated that those in spiritual darkness "shall not escape". Peter was more specific about the event in terms of describing what will actually cause the destruction. It will be caused by fire. That would line up with Paul saying in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 that Jesus will be revealed "in flaming fire taking vengeance" on His enemies.

God's wrath, 1Thessalonians5:9, will take place in the great tribulation. That is when the "sudden" destruction will take place.

Saying "peace and safety' by the world right before the great tribulation will be because the world will think it has entered the messianic age. But it will be a false messianic age, to suddenly end when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4 - triggering the beginning of the day of the Lord, the day of Christ.


2Thessalonians2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Davidpt]

Here's what I think the problem is. Not with us, as we are trying to figure out the discrepancy. But between Peter and Paul in their communicating.

Paul seems to be more exact in his communicating when the day of the Lord actually starts. And also regarding the rapture/resurrection event timing.

Peter, on the other hand, communicates in a more general sense, leaning to emphasize more about Christian behavior.

So the solution for us is take what Paul wrote and what John wrote in Revelation.... combining that information... into some sort of timeline. Then applying what Peter wrote concerning the destruction of this current heaven and earth and insert it into the timeline, at its proper place.

When we do that, we come up with the day of the Lord being in several segments - the final segment being eternity of the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem. The first segment being when Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood in 2Thessalonians2:4.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 ¶Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

The typical Premil interpretation also makes nonsense of some of the following.

11 what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

The coming of the day of God is not meaning a thousand years and little season after Christ has returned. It is meaning in this age leading up to His return. He doesn't need to still come a thousand years later if He already came a thousand years earlier.

As to verse 11, one is to do that in this present age--- what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness---not during a future millennium instead.

Verse 11 and 12 could be understood as such.

You seeing while you are still alive in this present age that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness in the meantime,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God at the end of this present age, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

If you don't think it can be understood like that then how about you submitting how it should be understood? There is no way that the coming of the day of God is meaning after the millennium unless Amil is the correct view. But if Premil is the correct view this means the coming of the day of God can't be after the millennium but has to be prior to the millennium. And what does the text indicate happens during the coming day of God?

Verses 10-12 tell us exactly that and that those things are connected to the coming day of God. Once again, keeping in mind, the coming day of God happens in the end of this age, not a thousand years later instead. We can not divorce any of these things from the coming day of God since all these things in verses 10-12 happens during the coming day of God.

And what is the coming day of God? It is the day of the Lord and it is not reasonable to apply the DOTL to the GWTJ if the GWTJ is meaning a thousand years and a little season after Christ returns.

My solution then is this. The NHNE begin with the thousand years and are a process that is not completed until the GWTJ has come and gone . Or Amil is the correct position, Premil isn't. I don't see any other options since I don't see verses 10-12 to be meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned as an option.

Obviously, the coming of the day of God is also what is meant in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where you take that to be involving great tribulation, but then take it to be involving something entirely different in 2 Peter 3. As if there are 2 different coming day of God rather than just one. Not to mention, 2 Thessalonians 2 also involves the coming of the day of God.

There can only be one coming day of God, meaning the day of the Lord. And once that day comes it doesn't need to come again at a later time. Granted, the DOTL is obviously involving an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day or less. But even so, I can't imagine it involving an entire millennium, then satan's little season, then the GTWJ. Even if we apply 2 Peter 3:8 to the DOTL that would mean it's only involving the millennium. What about satan's little season after the millennium? The text says--that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. And not this instead--that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years plus a little season plus the GWTJ, and a thousand years plus a little season plus the GWTJ as one day.

 

[Douggg]

My solution then is this. The NHNE begin with the thousand years and are a process that is not completed until the GWTJ has come and gone . Or Amil is the correct position, Premil isn't. I don't see any other options since I don't see verses 10-12 to be meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned as an option.

David, the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem are in Revelation 21 after the Great White Throne Judgement.

I just finished a chart that I call "The Day of the Lord path to eternity". It puts everything into it's correct order.