The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[Lambano]

oh hey, I forgot, what were those 3 terms you said to look up and see which one you thought sounded most terrible? I remember I wanted to look them up. Was it in this thread?

It's a single concept called "Arrogated", "Temporal" or "Evanescent" Grace. The theological system advocated by brother Eternally Grateful is based on two major premises: The first, God is sovereign, and there is nothing in Heaven, Earth, or Hell that can thwart His plans. The second, Man is totally depraved and incapable of satisfying God's requirements. For a man to believe, God must first give him the grace to believe. So, what of those who believe for a while and then stop believing? John Calvin was a very intelligent man and knew the logical implications of his theories. For a man to believe, God must first give him a Temporal grace to believe. For a man to stop believing, God must remove the Temporal grace. That makes God a deceiver. It's a horrible theory, but logically required by the system's premises. To deny it is to say that God has already given men the ability to believe the Gospel and to trust Jesus. I agree. Based on my empirical observations of what sorts of things men do believe in and trust in (see the political and current events threads on this very board, for example), I conclude humans can believe anything.

The Saint class of course doesn't have to worry about this. I was merely objecting to brother E.G.s conclusion that the Believer class must have faith in their own faith rather than in Christ. I would say rather that both put their fates in Christ's hands. Maybe you’re right; maybe I should just let a good man think about it and let God work on his heart.

I still want to see where you're going with this.

 

[Lambano]

One source defined ἀγαπάω (agapao, to love, the verb cognate of Agape) as when the beloved one's happiness and well-being is essential to that of the one loving.

Unfortunately, the corollary is that you hurt when they hurt.

 

[Enoch111]

The Saint class of course doesn't have to worry about this. I was merely objecting to brother E.G.s conclusion that the Believer class must have faith in their own faith rather than in Christ.

Since when did two classes of Christians appear on the horizon?
SAINTS= BELIEVERS = SAINTS = SANCTIFIED ONES

 

[Lambano]

Why, that’s the premise of this thread. The words used for the concept is a different issue.

 

[farouk]

Why, that’s the premise of this thread. The words used for the concept is a different issue.

@Lambano I think for a theological discussion to be really useful and constructive, sticking close to revealed Scripture and its wording is essential; otherwise, logic and opinion can go just round and round...

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

saints - believers - same-same

 

[Lambano]

@Lambano I think for a theological discussion to be really useful and constructive, sticking close to revealed Scripture and its wording is essential; otherwise, logic and opinion can go just round and round...

The Articles of Remonstrance were published in 1610, and the debate is still on-going after 400 years, so I support Dave H.'s premise that both are biblical. I just think he's trying to prove it the wrong way.

 

[farouk]

The Articles of Remonstrance were published in 1610, and the debate is still on-going after 400 years, so I support Dave H.'s premise that both are biblical. I just think he's trying to prove it the wrong way.

@Lambano In either viewpoint, a lot of politics and logic were involved which didn't necessarily clarify Scripture... I do have my own convictions, though...

 

[marks]

You think I’ve hated you??

No, I'm speaking figuratively. I find you to be sincere, not that I really know you.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, I'm speaking figuratively. I find you to be sincere, not that I really know you.

Much love!

catch up, lol! I figured it out on my own since you abandoned the conversation for like…it seemed like days…?

 

[marks]

catch up, lol! I figured it out on my own since you abandoned the conversation for like…it seemed like days…?

I have limited internet access. Most weekends I'm offline. Evenings too.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think grace is kindness and mercy shown. It’s not really to deem someone to be something they aren’t. It’s just kindness and mercy. I’m not sure why men have decided grace is to deem someone to be something they aren’t…isn’t it enough to be shown mercy and be forgiven?

God calls things that are not, as though they were, and they are.

Light be, and light was. And He has also shone into our hearts.

Grace is His favor, His kindness to us, and in His grace He justifies us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is a man going to hunger for righteousness in his inner man and ask from that hunger if he thinks he’s already righteous?

Yes, he most certainly will. But I don't think you understand this. Being righteous in the inner man, we cry out more than anything to be righteous in the outer man. The outer man will not be righteous until our resurrection, but we grow in self-control.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God’s mercy and grace to those ‘found in Christ’ is called, in theological terms, “imputed righteousness”. It’s a core doctrine…fundamental to our understanding of our salvation.

Romans 4:7-8
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

2 Corinthians 5:19-21
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


This is no ‘make believe’…and even though we do not live perfect lives, when God looks at us, he sees Christ’s perfection. This is also sometimes called ‘the great exchange’.
Without this doctrine, Christ lived a perfect life, this is true, and he died a sacrificial death…but it did nothing for us…could do nothing for us. Unless the ‘great exchange’ occurred, then we are still in our sins and counted unrighteous.

In our justification, we are created new, born of God, and God does not father sinners. He fathers one's like Himself, righteous, holy.

There is no pretend, no make believe, but God sees both the corrupt man of Adam who is dead, and the living child He's begotten. No make believe, just living in reality.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Grace

Men go away justified who are honest and speak the truth about themselves. Two sinners went to pray. Only the honest one went away justified.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, he most certainly will.

I disagree. Do men ask for what they think they already have…?

 

[marks]

The problem is, I don’t see those doctrines in those scriptures. At all.
And “so that we might become” does not read like “so we are.”
Would I say, I planted this seed today and hope it might become an apple tree. Or do I say, I planted this seed today and it is now an apple tree?

I've been posting those Scriptures for a long time.

You've planted a tree, and it's sprouted, so even if you don't see it yet, and even if there is no fruit yet, it remains fact that a new life has begun, an living apple tree now grows where one did not before.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It’s when you see a man in such certainties that he is abusive and beating and murdering others with his tongue that you worry for him because you know the awful tumble he is going to have.

The wrong fruit of the false teacher.

It's what we've been warned about, so when you find a teacher who cannot control his tongue, it doesn't mean what he is saying is wrong necessarily, but it does mean, at least in my opinion, that we need to take a real hard look at what they've been telling you.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Being righteous in the inner man, we cry out more than anything to be righteous in the outer man.

I think you have it backwards.
The outside of the cup can look spotless while inside is filth, but if the inside of the cup is clean, the outside just will be as well. It is what comes out of a man that defiles him. No one would ever murder who hadn’t done it inside first.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The wrong fruit of the false teacher.

It's what we've been warned about, so when you find a teacher who cannot control his tongue, it doesn't mean what he is saying is wrong necessarily, but it does mean, at least in my opinion, that we need to take a real hard look at what they've been telling you.

Much love!

And then sometimes…do what they say but don’t do what they do!