The decline of Christianity in Europe

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newlife

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According to the 2010 Eurobarometer poll 40 percent of the population of France denied the existence of God, Spirit or any form of life force, the highest rate of atheism in Europe, while 27 percent said that they believe there is a God. In Sweden 34 percent did not believe in God, Spirit or a life force while 18 percent believed in God. Overall among Euro Member states 51 percent affirmed a belief in God, with the highest rate of theism in Malta at 94 percent. Quite extraordinary numbers for a continent long considered to be at the center of Christian belief.
Please pray for the state of Christianity in Europe.
 

laid renard

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Yes, I've know about this for years now. I've read about the decline in Christianity in Europe in a few internet articles. But I also learned of it through being a member at a few non Christian forums where there are people from all over the world. It us usually noticed around Christmas time. The Americans would almost always wish others a Merry Christmas, while the vast majority of European posters would wish their fellow members a Happy Holiday or Season's Greetings.
One article stated not only was an unbelief in God present, but also a negative or hateful attitude was evident, when shop keepers stopped displaying signs which included the word Christmas and started using the generic term of Holiday or Season as not to offend patrons.

I see it happening in America now.

May they all see the error of their ways before they take their final breath.
 

RANDOR

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Yes..It's getting close now......for there are not that many left who will give their lives to Christ.

satan is very busy............preparing a place for his people.
 

aspen

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do you really think it is satan or simply a distrust of institutions that were wrapped up in hundreds of years of war? note: i did not say Christianity caused war - but chicken doesnt cause food poisoning either, yet an aversion to chicken is almost inevitable if you get food poisoning after you eat it.
 

River Jordan

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The decline in the US has been discussed here several times. The demographic data shows it is due to younger generations leaving the faith at accelerated rates. They also give fairly specific reasons why they're leaving, but from what I can tell, the older folks aren't really listening.
 

aspen

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it is no longer a cultural norm to believe in your own capacity for a complete understanding of absolute truth.

one of the flaws of modernism is confusing the existence of absolute truth with our personal fervor/understanding of absolute truth. "i do not know" is no longer a damning phrase, thankfully
 
B

brakelite

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The figure for France is not surprising....once a strong Christian nation and one that was embracing the reformation with gusto, the French revolution put the brakes on that by outlawing religion in any and every form...apart from the "godess of 'reason'". France was responsible for the offiical establishment of atheism in politics...communism was born there...and now she is still paying the price. Those Hugenoet Calvinists who weren't killed escaped to Britain and Holland.

The popes of recent times havealso recognized the lack of spirituality in their home patch, and have busily lobbied governments and international bodies such as the European Union to legislate sunday laws in order to protect Christian tradtion and practice. I guess there isn't much spirituality in the Vatican either with them having to resort to politics to establsih their brand of faith. Although, come to think of it, that's hardly a new thing for the Roman church. They've been resorting to such tactics throughout their entire existence.
 

Dan57

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"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1).
 

aspen

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latter days started as soon as Christ rose from the dead. It is vanity to orchestrate the Bible to predict Christ's return during our lifetime. He will return when the Father sends Him. we must prepare our hearts, not dabble in numerical formulas and verse-ology to make misguided predictions like Harold Camping - what profound waste of time and potential sanctification
 

HammerStone

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Aspen, I think you touched on a key point. Many folks are rejecting a Christianity based in too much "rationalism" (IE: the concept that every single thing can be systematized) or that there are often irrational (though they may seem rational to deceived believers) predictions and focuses on things over and above Jesus.

There are a couple things that I want to point out in fairness. Number one, much of the declines we are talking about in this thread - both in Europe and America - are related specifically to Caucasians in terms of secularization. For a counterpoint, I can provide both Africa and China as examples where Christianity is, well, growing like wildfire. Here in the states, if you separate out the Black and Hispanic believers, there is a much smaller rate of decline, and is even growing in some sectors.

Here's a great link on non-white millennials from Faithstreet: http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/05/16/are-millennials-really-leaving-church-yes-but-mostly-white-millennials/32103

Dr. Anthony Bradley has also talked about this a good bit if you follow him on social media, or check out this blog entry: http://www.dranthonybradley.com/a-gentle-friendly-request-for-southern-baptist-writers/

Second, I'm not sure I fully buy the young-leaving narrative. I would suspect that a lot of the nones are young because it's easier for a young person who has grown up in the rapidly secularizing environment to leave. However, I really don't buy it's just an issue of cranky and rude old folks. Yes, the church has been quite disconnected in some areas, but there seems to be a notion that if older adults were nicer, there would be more young Christians. To me, this is describing a very shallow faith, more in line with Moralistic Therapeutic Deism (MTD) than Christianity.

While the nones trend is alarming for anyone who does not want to see a single soul fall into hell, I am not sure that this will be a longer term trend. I am reminded of the old Churchill quote about young liberals and old conservatives. Many of these who have left will be back. It is a lifetime journey.
 

River Jordan

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HammerStone said:
Aspen, I think you touched on a key point. Many folks are rejecting a Christianity based in too much "rationalism" (IE: the concept that every single thing can be systematized) or that there are often irrational (though they may seem rational to deceived believers) predictions and focuses on things over and above Jesus.

There are a couple things that I want to point out in fairness. Number one, much of the declines we are talking about in this thread - both in Europe and America - are related specifically to Caucasians in terms of secularization. For a counterpoint, I can provide both Africa and China as examples where Christianity is, well, growing like wildfire. Here in the states, if you separate out the Black and Hispanic believers, there is a much smaller rate of decline, and is even growing in some sectors.

Here's a great link on non-white millennials from Faithstreet: http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014/05/16/are-millennials-really-leaving-church-yes-but-mostly-white-millennials/32103

Dr. Anthony Bradley has also talked about this a good bit if you follow him on social media, or check out this blog entry: http://www.dranthonybradley.com/a-gentle-friendly-request-for-southern-baptist-writers/
I've seen all that too and I think for the most part it's spot on. It seems as a population becomes more developed, economically advanced, and educated, it become less religious. It's an interesting phenomenon.

Second, I'm not sure I fully buy the young-leaving narrative.
The data is pretty clear; they are leaving in significant numbers.

I would suspect that a lot of the nones are young because it's easier for a young person who has grown up in the rapidly secularizing environment to leave. However, I really don't buy it's just an issue of cranky and rude old folks. Yes, the church has been quite disconnected in some areas, but there seems to be a notion that if older adults were nicer, there would be more young Christians. To me, this is describing a very shallow faith, more in line with Moralistic Therapeutic Deism (MTD) than Christianity.
No, no...it's definitely not that simplistic. Here in the US, I hear a lot of older Christians lament how politicized Christianity has become, and how often church members are subjected to what they call "purity tests", where if a person say, votes for a Democrat, they are ostracized, or it's discovered that they don't support tea party groups. I've even attended services at some churches where entire sermons are dedicated to nothing but upcoming elections! That's not why a lot of people go to church, and when they see that sort of thing, they start to look elsewhere.

There's also the factor of younger generations being more educated. That means they're going to colleges and taking world religion, philosophy, world literature, comparative religion, and other similar classes where the Bible isn't treated as the direct Word of God, but as one type of religious literature among many. Also, in going to college, they encounter a lot of other students from diverse cultures and backgrounds...and believe it or not, they all get together and talk! :eek: And in those discussions, religion comes up a lot, and the kids who grew up in Christian households will be exposed to a bunch of "This is why I'm not a Christian" arguments from their fellow students. In all, it means they're exposed to a lot more different ways of thinking and believing than previous generations.

Of course you have to throw in the fact that kids today are getting better and more thorough education in the sciences too, and the fact that many US Christian denominations take extreme anti-science stances. I can understand the whole creation-evolution thing, but I've also seen Christian groups be global warming denialists, anti-vaccine, anti-modern medicine, anti-conservation, and a handful of other anti-science advocates. And it doesn't make sense to me. There's nothing in Christianity that has anything to do with those things, but somehow they've become fairly prevalent in Christian circles. I suspect it has to do with conservative Christianity's overlap with the corporate interests of the Republican Party.

Add in the strong perception that Christianity is decidedly anti-gay people too. As we've been over here before, it's one thing to say "I believe homosexuality is a sin" or even "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman", but it's something else entirely to spend significant resources trying to deny gays basic civil rights (e.g., employment discrimination protections, housing, hospital visitation). If you pay attention to Christian groups like Focus on the Family and Family Research Council and some of the hateful things they say about gay people...well, it's almost impossible to come away thinking "Well, they just think being gay is a sin, but they don't hate anyone".

None of these factors by itself explains the exodus of youth from Christianity. But put them together and they do. Also, I spend a lot of time listening to what teens and twenty-somethings have to say about Christianity, and it's quite eye-opening.

While the nones trend is alarming for anyone who does not want to see a single soul fall into hell, I am not sure that this will be a longer term trend. I am reminded of the old Churchill quote about young liberals and old conservatives. Many of these who have left will be back. It is a lifetime journey.
That could be. I certainly hope so.
 

HammerStone

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I've seen all that too and I think for the most part it's spot on. It seems as a population becomes more developed, economically advanced, and educated, it become less religious. It's an interesting phenomenon.
And, in all honesty, I'd counter that with a charge of ethnocentrism. Correlation doesn't always equal causation. Could it be that the westernized mindset leads to secularization versus development leading there?

In fact, I'd argue that this reverses the trend set in earlier ages where advancing European civilization that was heavily religious gave birth to the Enlightenment. I honestly used to hold the view that you do, but I think we can get too caught up in the idea that because we have legitimate advances in fields in science and mathematics that we are inherently better. If you assume materialistic rationalism, then yes, I see this worldview in play. However, I am not convinced that all of our concepts of advancement are truly advancements. There are technologies (Roman cement, the mysterious computer-like device found in the Mediterranean, the pyramids, etc.) that we are left unable to explain or replicate that make me say not so fast.


The data is pretty clear; they are leaving in significant numbers.
Again, white evangelicals are - that's not quite the trend that I am seeing elsewhere.

Also, the data can be overblown at times related to 1) the factor I mentioned in my previous post about cultural Christians and 2) lies, d____d lies and statistics:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2012/october/christianity-isnt-dying-cultural-christianity-is-talking.html

(I can recall another article with a similar look, though I am trying to find it and will post later if I am able to find it.)


None of these factors by itself explains the exodus of youth from Christianity. But put them together and they do. Also, I spend a lot of time listening to what teens and twenty-somethings have to say about Christianity, and it's quite eye-opening.
I agree and did not mean to suggest that you're suggesting it's the only reason. I keep hearing this narrative, and while I definitely understand the culture war fatigue and know plenty of the churches in the area here that would meet your description, I also am exposed to people leaving the faith or struggling with it through a variety of ministries and encounters.

Perhaps it's the English major in me, but I like to dig a little deeper than face value when someone gives me a reason. It's like the poll that says that the vast majority of Americans are Christian. They can call it that when you ask, but a large swath would struggle to reconcile the Christianity of the first few centuries with what you see in the church down the road. I would submit many of these are Deists or Moralistic Therapeutic Deists. As well, the Mormons call themselves Christians. In our society, we can call ourselves what we want, but that doesn't make it true. When these good folks leave, I am not convinced they are leaving Christianity. In some cases, what they believed was a close copy of Christianity, and then in other cases they're disaffiliating, but they'll be back.

Politicization is a major factor yes, but at the same time, I would submit that a faith made (or unmade) by other peoples opinions and treatment is not just the victim of some jerks or a bad church experience. (As an aside, bad church experience folks generally come back in my experience even though it may be years later.)

Heck, give me what's commonly called Liberal Christianity. Let's just look at how it has carried an important (that always gets me in trouble with Conservatives) focus on social justice, which typically appeals to our (assuming you're around the 20s-30s range here) generation. These churches have been gutted as well; sometimes they are political too, and then sometimes they aren't. Yet the exodus is there, too.

The question is: how much of this has only recently become trackable due to culture changes? I'm not denying there are people leaving, but I am unsure of the extent.
 

River Jordan

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HammerStone said:
And, in all honesty, I'd counter that with a charge of ethnocentrism. Correlation doesn't always equal causation. Could it be that the westernized mindset leads to secularization versus development leading there?
It could be. The survey data I'm referencing is from the US, and the OP refers to data from Europe.

In fact, I'd argue that this reverses the trend set in earlier ages where advancing European civilization that was heavily religious gave birth to the Enlightenment. I honestly used to hold the view that you do, but I think we can get too caught up in the idea that because we have legitimate advances in fields in science and mathematics that we are inherently better. If you assume materialistic rationalism, then yes, I see this worldview in play. However, I am not convinced that all of our concepts of advancement are truly advancements. There are technologies (Roman cement, the mysterious computer-like device found in the Mediterranean, the pyramids, etc.) that we are left unable to explain or replicate that make me say not so fast.
I don't think it's that; I think it's more multi-faceted. Developed usually = more comfortable, easier lifestyle, plus our modern technology allows for crazy easy flow of information and ideas across the world, and yes I think scientific explanations for things religious leaders used to insist were proofs of God is a factor too. It's like Ken Miller said in his book "Finding Darwin's God":

"If we accept a lack of scientific explanation as proof for God's existence, simple logic would dictate that we would have to regard a successful scientific explanation as an argument against God. That's why creationist reasoning, ultimately, is much more dangerous to religion than to science. Elliot Meyerowitz's fine work on floral induction suddenly becomes a threat to the divine, even though common sense tells us it should be nothing of the sort. By arguing, as creationists do, that nature cannot be self-sufficient in the formation of new species, the creationists forge a logical link between the limits of natural processes to accomplish biological change and the existence of a designer (God). In other words, they show the proponents of atheism exactly how to disprove the existence of God - show that evolution works, and it's time to tear down the temple. This is an offer that the enemies of religion are all too happy to accept."

American conservative Christians have definitely set themselves up for this to play out.

Again, white evangelicals are - that's not quite the trend that I am seeing elsewhere.
In the US, it's pretty across the board. It's only Latino immigrants that are propping up the overall demographic numbers.

Also, the data can be overblown at times related to 1) the factor I mentioned in my previous post about cultural Christians and 2) lies, d____d lies and statistics:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2012/october/christianity-isnt-dying-cultural-christianity-is-talking.html

(I can recall another article with a similar look, though I am trying to find it and will post later if I am able to find it.)
That's about a different survey than the one I'm talking about.


I agree and did not mean to suggest that you're suggesting it's the only reason. I keep hearing this narrative, and while I definitely understand the culture war fatigue and know plenty of the churches in the area here that would meet your description, I also am exposed to people leaving the faith or struggling with it through a variety of ministries and encounters.

Perhaps it's the English major in me, but I like to dig a little deeper than face value when someone gives me a reason. It's like the poll that says that the vast majority of Americans are Christian. They can call it that when you ask, but a large swath would struggle to reconcile the Christianity of the first few centuries with what you see in the church down the road. I would submit many of these are Deists or Moralistic Therapeutic Deists. As well, the Mormons call themselves Christians. In our society, we can call ourselves what we want, but that doesn't make it true. When these good folks leave, I am not convinced they are leaving Christianity. In some cases, what they believed was a close copy of Christianity, and then in other cases they're disaffiliating, but they'll be back.

Politicization is a major factor yes, but at the same time, I would submit that a faith made (or unmade) by other peoples opinions and treatment is not just the victim of some jerks or a bad church experience. (As an aside, bad church experience folks generally come back in my experience even though it may be years later.)

Heck, give me what's commonly called Liberal Christianity. Let's just look at how it has carried an important (that always gets me in trouble with Conservatives) focus on social justice, which typically appeals to our (assuming you're around the 20s-30s range here) generation. These churches have been gutted as well; sometimes they are political too, and then sometimes they aren't. Yet the exodus is there, too.
I agree. I think a lot of people put "Christian" in those surveys, but don't really meet even the most basic criteria for the label. It's more of a identity than actual belief. Kinda like they're thinking "I have to put something, because I can't put nothing", so they put whatever they grew up in.

The question is: how much of this has only recently become trackable due to culture changes? I'm not denying there are people leaving, but I am unsure of the extent.
Well, there's the survey data and from where I sit I see a lot of confirmation. Churches are closing faster than new ones open. And through my youth ministry, I get to visit a lot of different churches and there's a pretty obvious trend in almost all of them...a lot of older people, some young kids, and very few teens and twenty-somethings. I also remember some survey data showing that only about 20% of people who leave a faith before the age of 25 ever return.

It's pretty hard to look at all that and be encouraged.