the days of vengeance - Luke 21

[Poppin]

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Do you believe the above passage has taken place in the past, or lies in our future?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Poppin.

Yes and yes.

 

[Poppin]

Shalom, Poppin.

Yes and yes.

Retrobyter,
Does this mean you expect an exact replay of the same prophecy.
Poppin

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Do you believe the above passage has taken place in the past, or lies in our future?

Isaiah 61
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn....

Luke 4
Jesus Rejected at Nazareth
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Jesus proclaimed both the favorable year of the Lord, and the day(s) of vengeance (which He specifically told His disciples was to fulfill all that is written - tying it directly to "this people", in Jerusalem)

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Hi Poppin,

I see what you are getting at and it is an interesting point, but it doesn't seem likely to me that the events described in verse 24 would have been fulfilled during the space of a pregnancy. It seems to me that Jesus was initially referring to the near future (the desolation of Jerusalem) but then continued on to discuss the distant future.

Another thing that I find interesting in relation to this is the idea that Jesus spoke of two desolations, the one in Luke 21 occurring before the "birth pains" and the other, in Matt 24 occurring after the birth pains. Perhaps Luke describes the fulfillment of God's vengeance, whereas the one in Matthew concerns the antichrist.

The following link discusses this:

http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.se/2006/01/are-matthew-24-and-luke-21-same.html

 

[Poppin]

Hi Poppin,

I see what you are getting at and it is an interesting point, but it doesn't seem likely to me that the events described in verse 24 would have been fulfilled during the space of a pregnancy. It seems to me that Jesus was initially referring to the near future (the desolation of Jerusalem) but then continued on to discuss the distant future.

Another thing that I find interesting in relation to this is the idea that Jesus spoke of two desolations, the one in Luke 21 occurring before the "birth pains" and the other, in Matt 24 occurring after the birth pains. Perhaps Luke describes the fulfillment of God's vengeance, whereas the one in Matthew concerns the antichrist.

The following link discusses this:

http://thepre-wrathtribune.blogspot.se/2006/01/are-matthew-24-and-luke-21-same.html

UppsalaDragby,
This period of history is not taught to us in our churches.
It is critical to understand what happened.
Jesus wept over Jerusalem even as He decreed her destruction.

He knew they would be reduced to eating their children.

I truly believe we need to pause and learn about what happened, before we indulge in predictions about the future.
The zealots and rebels committed crimes against their countrymen trapped in the city as bad as what befell them at the hands of the Romans.
Daniel was sick for many days after his vision.

The rejection of the Messiah was a dreadful, terrible thing.
We must understand how serious this was, and is.

----

Chronology of the War
According to Josephus
Part 7:
The Siege and Destruction of Jerusalem
March 70 - September 70
G. J. Goldberg

http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/warChronology7Fall.html

5.420-445
Horrific famine seizes Jersualem.

5.491-534
Titus decides to starve the city.

6.193-219
Horrible famine. The news of Mary provokes hatred and despair.

The victims of famine are dying in countless numbers. Hungry rebels like mad dogs stagger from house to house searching for food. Shoe leather and grass is gnawed on. Famine reaches its ultimate depth: the tale of Mary daughter of Eleazar shocks the rebels and Romans alike. "For fear of being regarded as fabricator, I would gladly have omitted this tragedy, had I not innumerable witnesses among my contemporaries." Titus vows to bury this abomination beneath the ruins of the city.

6.281-288
Crowds of people burned alive on the porticoes following a false prophet.

6.315
Genuine signs had predicted the destruction.

6.316-322
Roman sacrifices performed in the Temple.

---

and so on.
Lord, have mercy on us all.

 

[Dan57]

Do you believe the above passage has taken place in the past, or lies in our future?

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (occurred) , until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (future)" (Luke 21:24)

 

[UppsalaDragby]

UppsalaDragby,
This period of history is not taught to us in our churches.
It is critical to understand what happened.
Jesus wept over Jerusalem even as He decreed her destruction.

He knew they would be reduced to eating their children.

I truly believe we need to pause and learn about what happened, before we indulge in predictions about the future.
The zealots and rebels committed crimes against their countrymen trapped in the city as bad as what befell them at the hands of the Romans.
Daniel was sick for many days after his vision.

The rejection of the Messiah was a dreadful, terrible thing.
We must understand how serious this was, and is.

----

Chronology of the War
According to Josephus
Part 7:
The Siege and Destruction of Jerusalem
March 70 - September 70
G. J. Goldberg

http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/warChronology7Fall.html

5.420-445
Horrific famine seizes Jersualem.

5.491-534
Titus decides to starve the city.

6.193-219
Horrible famine. The news of Mary provokes hatred and despair.

The victims of famine are dying in countless numbers. Hungry rebels like mad dogs stagger from house to house searching for food. Shoe leather and grass is gnawed on. Famine reaches its ultimate depth: the tale of Mary daughter of Eleazar shocks the rebels and Romans alike. "For fear of being regarded as fabricator, I would gladly have omitted this tragedy, had I not innumerable witnesses among my contemporaries." Titus vows to bury this abomination beneath the ruins of the city.

6.281-288
Crowds of people burned alive on the porticoes following a false prophet.

6.315
Genuine signs had predicted the destruction.

6.316-322
Roman sacrifices performed in the Temple.

---

and so on.
Lord, have mercy on us all.

Hi Poppin,

I hope you didn't interpret my post as an attack on your position, as much as something as simple as "kicking the tyres". On the one hand I want be honest and open about the fact that I lean towards the conventional idea that many of the prophetic events lie in front of us, but on the other hand I haven't closed the door to the possiblity that I might be wrong. I need to challenge and test everything that people say in order for me to get as close to the truth as I can.

Having said that I must say that I don't really understand what your response has to do with what I posted. I have no problem accepting the fact that whatever happened in 70 AD was at least part of the prophecy that Jesus mentioned. But whether or not everything that was written in the Olivet discourse and the Book of Revelation transpired back then is another question. Even you admitted that there are things that remain to be fulfilled in the future, so it seems that "all that is written" probably only refers to the "days of vengeance" against the Jews. The abomination of desolation on the other hand is commonly considered something other than God's wrath, so I can imagine it being a future event. After that occurs I think it makes sense that God's Wrath against the gentiles will be poured out on the earth.

As I said, I might be wrong about that and so I am doing my best to follow the discussions here.

 

[Poppin]

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (occurred) , until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (future)" (Luke 21:24)

Hi Dan57 :)
This sounds plausible. Can we find out about the times of the Gentiles?
If the times of the Gentiles is future, and it is fulfilled (in some way), what brings about it's fulfillment?

In advance, I have not seen a connection between "the times of the Gentiles" (trodding Jerusalem underfoot) and "the fullness of the Gentiles" (which is about the salvation of the gentiles)
Looking forward to help on this one :unsure: :)
Poppin

Hi Poppin,

I hope you didn't interpret my post as an attack on your position, as much as something as simple as "kicking the tyres". On the one hand I want be honest and open about the fact that I lean towards the conventional idea that many of the prophetic events lie in front of us, but on the other hand I haven't closed the door to the possiblity that I might be wrong. I need to challenge and test everything that people say in order for me to get as close to the truth as I can.

Having said that I must say that I don't really understand what your response has to do with what I posted. I have no problem accepting the fact that whatever happened in 70 AD was at least part of the prophecy that Jesus mentioned. But whether or not everything that was written in the Olivet discourse and the Book of Revelation transpired back then is another question. Even you admitted that there are things that remain to be fulfilled in the future, so it seems that "all that is written" probably only refers to the "days of vengeance" against the Jews.

The abomination of desolation on the other hand is commonly considered something other than God's wrath, so I can imagine it being a future event. After that occurs I think it makes sense that God's Wrath against the gentiles will be poured out on the earth.

As I said, I might be wrong about that and so I am doing my best to follow the discussions here.

Hi UppsalaDragby!
NO! by no means did I think you were attacking. I apologize for not addressing your post more fully - it seems unless someone else posts...mine will be a mile long :wub:

I agree 100% with this: "it seems that "all that is written" probably only refers to the "days of vengeance" against the Jews."

But: "The abomination of desolation" is mentioned specifically in connection with the days of vengeance on that generation (in Jerusalem), and was the very signal to the disciples that would tell it was time to flee. In other words, the Synoptic Gospels are telling of the same event:

Mark 13
The Abomination of Desolation
14“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18Pray that it may not happen in winter. 19For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. 20And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.

Is this not the very same warning about the days of vengeance?
Jesus said it was spoken of by Daniel, and Daniel only covered the kingdoms up to the Iron and Clay (which I believe was Rome and apostate Jewry - the zealots rebels unbelievers and collaborators with Rome), the feet - which Daniel saw The Stone strike and break them in pieces.

As for what I believe remains to be fulfilled that is actually written, there are all the references we have to the Judgment.
All the references to eternity.
What do you think?
I certainly take what you have said seriously and apply to myself: "I might be wrong", which is why we are a body and are helping each other.
Forgive me if I fail.

love in Christ Jesus,
Poppin

 

[Dan57]

Hi Dan57 :)
This sounds plausible. Can we find out about the times of the Gentiles?
If the times of the Gentiles is future, and it is fulfilled (in some way), what brings about it's fulfillment?

In advance, I have not seen a connection between "the times of the Gentiles" (trodding Jerusalem underfoot) and "the fullness of the Gentiles" (which is about the salvation of the gentiles)
Looking forward to help on this one :unsure: :)
Poppin

"Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is in reference to the day when the nations cease to tread it down, and it is possessed by its rightful owners - Israel. Imo, this is an end time prophecy; http://rightwordtruth.com/when-will-the-times-of-the-gentiles-be-fulfilled/

 

[Poppin]

"Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is in reference to the day when the nations cease to tread it down, and it is possessed by its rightful owners - Israel. Imo, this is an end time prophecy; http://rightwordtruth.com/when-will-the-times-of-the-gentiles-be-fulfilled/

Hi Dan57,
Thank you. I looked at the link.
This system of interpretation I can no longer consider as viable . For reasons we could talk about if you like.
One problem I found when following this idea to it's conclusion:

""Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is in reference to the day when the nations cease to tread it down, and it is possessed by its rightful owners"

is that I just can't find any place that says Jerusalem on this earth plays any more role in God's plan. I only find New Jerusalem.

The passage itself certainly doesn't say: ""Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" is in reference to the day when the nations cease to tread it down, and it is possessed by its rightful owners" - it just says ""Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled".

The idea that the Land promises (rightful owners) were not fulfilled; being a type of the New Heaven and earth I haven't been able to substantiate.
I know we can pull Old Testament passages that speak of Jerusalem, but (and we could examine it in the Millennialism/Amillennialism thread) I believe those passages can all be shown to either have been fulfilled (the restoration), or are referring to the Heavenly Jerusalem (the reality of the type).
Poppin

 

[Rocky Wiley]

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles (occurred) , until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (future)" (Luke 21:24)

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

past - present - future - forever

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Poppin .... the times of the gentiles is not yet fulfilled ..... the full number of gentiles have not come in .... we are the gentile (non-Jewish) Christian church .... we are still adding to the numbers .... the fulfillment of the times of the gentiles is still future.

I I am very knowledgeable on the "Gentiles topic" , plus recent fulfillment of OT prophecy regarding Israel , I cannot get into it here , it will be released in book form maybe this year.

Most people do not realize Matthew 24 , and Luke 21 are different .... Jesus is addressing two different groups in the two different books

Rather than type it all out here , it would be faster and easier to listen to Chuck Missler in the link below .... he systematically lays it out and discusses the subtle differences between Matt 24 & Luke 21 and the importance of distinguishing what those differences mean..

I think you will find this very interesting and educational ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybF6lM_Hq4U

 

[Poppin]

Poppin .... the times of the gentiles is not yet fulfilled ..... the full number of gentiles have not come in .... we are the gentile (non-Jewish) Christian church .... we are still adding to the numbers .... the fulfillment of the times of the gentiles is still future.

I I am very knowledgeable on the "Gentiles topic" , plus recent fulfillment of OT prophecy regarding Israel , I cannot get into it here , it will be released in book form maybe this year.

Most people do not realize Matthew 24 , and Luke 21 are different .... Jesus is addressing two different groups in the two different books

Rather than type it all out here , it would be faster and easier to listen to Chuck Missler in the link below .... he systematically lays it out and discusses the subtle differences between Matt 24 & Luke 21 and the importance of distinguishing what those differences mean..

I think you will find this very interesting and educational ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybF6lM_Hq4U

Hi Arnie,
As I mentioned, The times of the Gentiles is about the trodding down of Jerusalem by them (Roman soldiers)...and ultimately the gentile powers of the Metal Man Image from Daniel. That all occurred beginning with Christ and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem. That's all it says and means:

Jerusmalem will be trodden down until the time for trodding down is fulfilled.

that is NOT the same as the the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES - which is a entirely different matter and subject - this is about the salvation of gentiles.

Two subjects. Not related.
Thanks Arnie, but I find Chuck Missler to be in error on most things.
God Bless you
Poppin.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

You have a lot to learn Poppin
But only if you want to
It appears not , so I wont bother

 

[Eric E Stahl]

When Jerusalem is surrounded in the tribulation, the Lord will save all of them.

Zecariah 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Poppin.

Retrobyter,
Does this mean you expect an exact replay of the same prophecy.
Poppin



Isaiah 61
1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn....

Luke 4
Jesus Rejected at Nazareth
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Jesus proclaimed both the favorable year of the Lord, and the day(s) of vengeance (which He specifically told His disciples was to fulfill all that is written - tying it directly to "this people", in Jerusalem)

No, it means that the prophecy was BEGUN in the past but continues through today and will continue into the future until Yeshua` returns! No repeat; it just isn't over, yet!

See, I am a PARTIAL preterist; that is, I believe that PART of what Yeshua` said in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21) was for the past but part is still for the future, as well! I don't believe in a "seven-year tribulation period" (or a "three-and-a-half-year great tribulation period"). I don't believe that the seventieth Seven of Dani'el has ANY equivalence to the tribulation period. I believe that the tribulation period began in the first century but has continued through the last 2,000 years or so and is sandwiched between the two halves of the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9. The times of the Goyim (Gentiles) continues through today and will continue until the Jews of Jerusalem can say "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH." That hasn't happened, yet, and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) is STILL overrun by the Goyim today!

You read these prophecies as though they are fulfilled - over and done with. That is NOT how they were conveyed! They were conveyed in such a fashion that the children of Isra'el could understand that these prophecies were STARTED but that they are STILL IN THE PROCESS of being fulfilled! Regarding Yeshua`s quotation of Isaiah 61 as recorded in Luke 4, it is significant that He stopped where He did in the quotation! He was NOT indicating that the rest was fulfilled, as well! Instead, He PURPOSELY quit where He did! The rest of the prophecy would not be completely fulfilled until He came in His SECOND Advent - His SECOND Coming!

As you yourself noted, the Olivet Discourse as recorded in Luke 21 shows that the days of vengeance BEGAN in the first century with the Roman invasion and the subsequent burning and demolishing of the Temple and Yerushalayim toward the purpose "to fulfill all that is written," but notice that IT DOESN'T END IN THE FIRST CENTURY! It WON'T END until the times of the Goyim are fulfilled! Thus the prophecy is STILL being fulfilled, even today! Sure, Isra'el has Yerushalayim within its possession, but the Old City is STILL divided in quarters, and three of those quarters are controlled by OUTSIDE, GOYIM FORCES! The Temple is STILL DESTROYED, and the Dome of the Rock invades its space, as a shrine to a pagan god! And, I say a pagan god, because I believe in "calling a spade a spade" and Islam's "Allah" is NOT the God we know from the Bible as YHWH! He doesn't act like Him nor does He resemble Him in ANY way! Allah doesn't have a son; YHWH HAS a Son, even if the stubborn Jews won't admit it ... YET!

As Yogi Berra said, "It ain't over till it's over!"

P.S. - As far as finding a place for Yerushalayim in prophecy, it would become more evident if you had a literal interpretation of the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT). But, consider this: The New Jerusalem does NOT come into play until it descends to the New Earth which does NOT happen until after the Great White Throne Judgment, which in turn does not happen until AFTER the Millennium. The current Yerushalayim will be the central focus of Yeshua`s government during those 1,000 years! Yerushalayim haChadashah won't happen until AFTER Yeshua` hands the Empire over to His Father (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)! For He must reign until He has put all of His enemies under His feet!

 

[Questor]

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Do you believe the above passage has taken place in the past, or lies in our future?

Both...Yeshua never wasted a word.

 

[Poppin]

Another thing that I find interesting in relation to this is the idea that Jesus spoke of two desolations......

Greetings UppsalaDragby,

Daniel & Maccabees describe several abominations and desolations; happening and committed by both the wayward Israelites but far more so by the regimes of Daniel 11 as the prophetic narrative is getting closer to the Incarnation (The gold was their captivity in Babylon....then the three (3) remaining are noted down to 1st century Rome & Israel (Iron and Clay).

Then the 5th Kingdom - Christ`s is described. He toppled the previous regimes when He was and is King (ìn the days of those kings - Dan 2)

Christs mention of the abomination (and desolation(s) spoken by Daniel would have been fairly simple to know - since others would have been in the past - for those who heeded this (it was the last one written of, and was going to take place at the end of the 70 weeks (including war(s) even to the end - of the indignation (i assume cumulative OT Covenant transgressions; the occupying gentiles pollutions - the killing of Messiah, and His apostles and servants)

history verifies this was Herod (IMO - from the clay & toes portion and period of the Iron kingdom - Rome occupation of Land of Israel - corruption; intrigue; intermingling; even some heros :) ) . And the Bible has multiple internal witnesses that describes the same events.

HEROD (there were 7):

Daniel 11
36“And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. 37He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. 38He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these. A god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39He shall deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall load with honor. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.

history shows Herod did prosper; divided the land for gain; outlived all the rebellion destruction and wrath (on this people) - he lived beyond the accomplishment of the indignation.

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 19
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
43"For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

If we can at least agree or begin to examine the historical details and see if those prophecies are verified to be in the past, then we find out what remains and examine that :) It`s exciting!

God Bless you richly
in Christ Our Lord.
Poppin

P.S. - As far as finding a place for Yerushalayim in prophecy, it would become more evident if you had a literal interpretation of the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT).

But, consider this: The New Jerusalem does NOT come into play until it descends to the New Earth which does NOT happen until after the Great White Throne Judgment, which in turn does not happen until AFTER the Millennium.

The current Yerushalayim will be the central focus of Yeshua`s government during those 1,000 years!

Yerushalayim haChadashah won't happen until AFTER Yeshua` hands the Empire over to His Father (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)! For He must reign until He has put all of His enemies under His feet!

The OT prophecies happened, literally.
If Ezekiel saw a valley of dry bones and was told it was the whole house of Israel - we know God is telling him something He will literally do. But He is showing it in pictures (you know Hebrew is pictures). God did what He said He would when He revived the captives in Babylon and Cyrus decreed they could go...(with financial; military and diplomatic protection!)
Ezekiel acted out saw many things (symbolically) that meant literal things.

The GWT happens on the last day. There is no Millennium. Everything you say is true...excepting this inevitable reversal to earthly temples; jerusalem; sacrifices...etc- when none of that is going to happen. Jesus is not ever going to reign from this earthly Jerusalem.

The current Yerushalayim will be the central focus of Yeshua`s government during those 1,000 years!

Can you post 5 clear passages that confirm what you claim :)

Galatians 4
24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

http://biblehub.com/esv/galatians/4.htm - CHAPTER

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At harvest time I'll tell the reapers: Gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to burn them, but store the wheat in my barn.'"

Handing over the kingdom to the Father is eternity.

For He must reign until He has put all of His enemies under His feet! - He is reigning NOW.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi Arnie,
As I mentioned, The times of the Gentiles is about the trodding down of Jerusalem by them (Roman soldiers)...and ultimately the gentile powers of the Metal Man Image from Daniel. That all occurred beginning with Christ and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem. That's all it says and means:

Jerusmalem will be trodden down until the time for trodding down is fulfilled.

that is NOT the same as the the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES - which is a entirely different matter and subject - this is about the salvation of gentiles.

Two subjects. Not related.
Thanks Arnie, but I find Chuck Missler to be in error on most things.
God Bless you
Poppin.

There is a prophetic pause part way through Matthew 24 & Luke 21
Sometimes a comma in a sentence (verse) separates prophecy by thousands of years.
But of course you do not realize this Poppin.
That is why you are not a scholar Poppin
And that is why Chuck Missler is a scholar
In spite of your objections

Jesus Christ did the same thing other times
He opened a scroll of Isaiah in the temple and read part of if
He stopped in mid sentence and said these things are fulfilled in your hearing it today
He rolled up the scroll and handed it back to the attendant
Everything He read has happened
Everything else in that chapter is future
It is separated by a comma in the middle of a sentence
There are thousands of years between the two

Any intelligent student of the bible should see these things
I can see it
Chuck Missler points those things out
Poppin cannot see it

Thus I say you have a lot to learn
Thus I say you should not be teaching anybody anything
Because to believe your own mistakes is one thing
But to teach them makes you a false teacher
Jesus never stopped in mid sentence when he bashed false teachers.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Greetings UppsalaDragby,

Daniel & Maccabees describe several abominations and desolations; happening and committed by both the wayward Israelites but far more so by the regimes of Daniel 11 as the prophetic narrative is getting closer to the Incarnation (The gold was their captivity in Babylon....then the three (3) remaining are noted down to 1st century Rome & Israel (Iron and Clay).

Then the 5th Kingdom - Christ`s is described. He toppled the previous regimes when He was and is King (ìn the days of those kings - Dan 2)

Christs mention of the abomination (and desolation(s) spoken by Daniel would have been fairly simple to know - since others would have been in the past - for those who heeded this (it was the last one written of, and was going to take place at the end of the 70 weeks (including war(s) even to the end - of the indignation (i assume cumulative OT Covenant transgressions; the occupying gentiles pollutions - the killing of Messiah, and His apostles and servants)

history verifies this was Herod (IMO - from the clay & toes portion and period of the Iron kingdom - Rome occupation of Land of Israel - corruption; intrigue; intermingling; even some heros :) ) . And the Bible has multiple internal witnesses that describes the same events.

HEROD (there were 7):

Daniel 11
36“And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done. 37He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. 38He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these. A god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39He shall deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall load with honor. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.

history shows Herod did prosper; divided the land for gain; outlived all the rebellion destruction and wrath (on this people) - he lived beyond the accomplishment of the indignation.

Luke 21
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Luke 19
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
43"For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

If we can at least agree or begin to examine the historical details and see if those prophecies are verified to be in the past, then we find out what remains and examine that :) It`s exciting!

God Bless you richly
in Christ Our Lord.
Poppin


The OT prophecies happened, literally.
If Ezekiel saw a valley of dry bones and was told it was the whole house of Israel - we know God is telling him something He will literally do. But He is showing it in pictures (you know Hebrew is pictures). God did what He said He would when He revived the captives in Babylon and Cyrus decreed they could go...(with financial; military and diplomatic protection!)
Ezekiel acted out saw many things (symbolically) that meant literal things.

The GWT happens on the last day. There is no Millennium. Everything you say is true...excepting this inevitable reversal to earthly temples; jerusalem; sacrifices...etc- when none of that is going to happen. Jesus is not ever going to reign from this earthly Jerusalem.

The current Yerushalayim will be the central focus of Yeshua`s government during those 1,000 years!

Can you post 5 clear passages that confirm what you claim :)

Galatians 4
24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

http://biblehub.com/esv/galatians/4.htm - CHAPTER

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At harvest time I'll tell the reapers: Gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to burn them, but store the wheat in my barn.'"

Handing over the kingdom to the Father is eternity.

For He must reign until He has put all of His enemies under His feet! - He is reigning NOW.

Poppin,

You do a nice job of making scripture so understanding.

I had never really looked at Luke 21 and seen 'the time of the gentiles' as to what it really meant.

Keep up with your posts.