The curious case of John 5:4

[Matthias]

When is the last time you read this passage of scripture?

Some people read the Bible cover to cover and have never read it. If the translation you use is one of the following, you won’t have read it and may not even be aware of it: CJB, DLNT, ERV, GNT, NABRE, NIV, NIVUK, and TLV.

John 5:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

I spoke with a concerned student some years back who encountered this curious case and came to me on the verge of losing his trust in the reliability of Bible. As I recall, the student (who had read only the NIV) had been completely unaware of the “problem” until a Muslim he was evangelizing pointed it out to him.

Would you, the reader, have been able to help the shaken student? If you would, how would you go about it?

 

[marks]

When is the last time you read this passage of scripture?

Some people read the Bible cover to cover and have never read it. If the translation you use is one of the following, you won’t have read it and may not even be aware of it: CJB, DLNT, ERV, GNT, NABRE, NIV, NIVUK, and TLV.

John 5:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

I spoke with a concerned student some years back who encountered this curious case and came to me on the verge of losing his trust in the reliability of Bible. As I recall, the student (who had read only the NIV) had been completely unaware of the “problem” until a Muslim he was evangelizing pointed it out to him.

Would you, the reader, have been able to help the shaken student? If you would, how would you go about it?

Hypotheticals aren't real, and you can turn them any direction you wish. How would you talk to this imaginary person? The real deal is when you are with a live person, as the Holy Spirit leads.

Personally, I never use any of these versions you've listed, for reason. Stick with the King James, and you'll do fine.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Hypotheticals aren't real …

The incident I described is real.

… and you can turn them any direction you wish. How would you talk to this imaginary person?

The person I spoke about is real, not imaginary. I’ll give others an opportunity to respond before I comment on how I helped the student.

The real deal is when you are with a live person, as the Holy Spirit leads.

I was live with the person (in that, I have those who weren’t at a disadvantage - which I suppose is the point of your comment) and the Holy Spirit did lead me, and the student, in working through the issue. It was the “real deal” for me and for the student.

Personally, I never use any of these versions you've listed, for reason. Stick with the King James, and you'll do fine.

Much love!

Thanks. That’s a way to assist the rattled student but not the way that I did.

 

[marks]

The incident I described is real.



The person I spoke about is real, not imaginary. I’ll give others an opportunity to respond before I comment on how I helped the student.



I was live with the person (in that, I have those who weren’t at a disadvantage - which I suppose is the point of your comment) and the Holy Spirit did lead me, and the student, in working through the issue. It was the “real deal” for me and for the student.



Thanks. That’s a way to assist the rattled student but not the way that I did.

In this forum this is an hypothetical. He's not here, only the bits of info that you dole out in any particular exchange.

And I'm saying to you . . . stick with the King James, not a person who is not here, not part of this discussion. I"m saying that to you.

What I'm saying is that we can imagine what we'd do in such and such circumstance, and the most likely reply from the person outlining the situation (you, in this case) is, Yeah, but such and such, as they turn the hypothetical which ever way they desire.

So yes, it was the real deal at the time, but it's not now, and yes, that was the point of my comment.

You've not relayed the full conversation, not given the tone of their comments, there is so much more information missing than this little bit that you gave.

Tell me . . . do you believe that verse belongs in the Bible?

Much love!

 

[Deborah_]

Every edition of the NIV that I've ever owned has had the "missing" text in a footnote. And so I have read it - many times.

I really don't see why there should be a problem over it. The "concerned student" needs to learn something about ancient manuscripts and why they don't always agree.

 

[Matthias]

In this forum this is an hypothetical. He's not here, only the bits of info that you dole out in any particular exchange.

And I'm saying to you . . . stick with the King James, not a person who is not here, not part of this discussion. I"m saying that to you.

What I'm saying is that we can imagine what we'd do in such and such circumstance, and the most likely reply from the person outlining the situation (you, in this case) is, Yeah, but such and such, as they turn the hypothetical which ever way they desire.

So yes, it was the real deal at the time, but it's not now, and yes, that was the point of my comment.

You've not relayed the full conversation, not given the tone of their comments, there is so much more information missing than this little bit that you gave.

Tell me . . . do you believe that verse belongs in the Bible?

Much love!

I was raised KJVO. I’ll have more to say about it after others have commented.

 

[Matthias]

Every edition of the NIV that I've ever owned has had the "missing" text in a footnote. And so I have read it - many times.

I really don't see why there should be a problem over it. The "concerned student" needs to learn something about ancient manuscripts and why they don't always agree.

The question concerns how you would help the student. “Read the footnotes” is a way (and one of the ways that I used to help the student I spoke about in the OP) to do it. “Learn about ancient manuscripts” is another way (and one that I also used to help him.)

There are additional ways.

 

[Windmill Charge]

completely unaware of the “problem” until a Muslim he was evangelizing pointed it out to him

And just what is the ' problem '?

 

[marks]

Tell me . . . do you believe that verse belongs in the Bible?

@Matthias

 

[Matthias]

And just what is the ' problem '?

The problem is that the inexperienced student thought there was a problem. The Muslin threw him for a loop.

The question asked in the OP is how to help the student. How would you go about helping the student?

 

[Matthias]

@Matthias

What do the notes tell us? Are the notes correct?

 

[Windmill Charge]

The problem is that the inexperienced student thought there was a problem. The Muslin threw him for a loop.

The question asked in the OP is how to help the student. How would you go about helping the student?

I would ask him why something in a foot note was causing him problems.
I would want him to work through his thoughts, biblical understanding and knowledge of how we got the bible.
Only then would I talk about the bible.

 

[marks]

What do the notes tell us? Are the notes correct?

It's OK, you don't have to answer. I wasn't really expecting an answer.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

I would ask him why something in a foot note was causing him problems.

Thanks. There were no footnotes in the Bible he was using. He was reluctant to look at footnotes in other Bibles (NIV, and other translations). The reason he gave for his reluctance was footnotes are not inspired.

I would want him to work through his thoughts, biblical understanding and knowledge of how we got the bible.
Only then would I talk about the bible.

I like that approach and made some use of it.

 

[Matthias]

It's OK, you don't have to answer. I wasn't really expecting an answer.

Much love!

I agree with the footnotes.

 

[marks]

I agree with the footnotes.

Is that a yes or a no??

You seem strangely allergic to committing yourself.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Is that a yes or a no??

You seem strangely allergic to committing yourself.

Much love!

Have you read the footnotes?

 

[Matthias]

This thread came about in an unusual way. Another member here recently posted in the Apologetics forum about how Muslims handle manuscript issues. I did an online search for something related to the topic and in the process of doing that recalled the conversation I mentioned in the OP. An hour later I went to YouTube to watch something completely unrelated to the manuscript issue or to the conversation I remembered from twnty years or so ago.

A video was recommended to me there that speaks about John 5:4. (Tell me again that search engines aren’t spying on us.) I have no idea who posted the video and / or is responsible for its content but I watched it and heard something said about the passage that I don’t recall ever hearing before - an asterisk placed in the margins of the extant manuscripts, as a caution to others. I haven’t checked yet to confirm that there is an asterisk.

 

[marks]

Have you read the footnotes?

I've read a gazillion footnotes. My question to you . . . oh nevermind.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

I've read a gazillion footnotes. My question to you . . . oh nevermind.

Much love!

I told you that I agree with the footnotes. All you’ve done, finally, is to acknowledge that you’ve read footnotes. The question remains, do you agree with the footnotes on John 5:4?