The Church Is The Israel Of God, Children Of The Promised Seed

[Truth7t7]

So why deny all those stars are the angels coming to earth that will still exist? It is is the sudden overwhelming movement of trillions of angels coming to earth, that produces this phenomenon the heavens and the earth being destroyed by fire. While all the works of mankind will be burned up as well. Then you claim people will be watching it all on TV. How if every work of man will be burned up? How is that a quiet Second Coming?

This is not even Armageddon. No angels are mentioned at Armageddon, but Satan. This is not Satan marching across the earth and his human army consumed by fire. How would Satan know to march across the earth at the exact moment of the Second Coming? Is Satan forcing God to start the Second Coming? Chapter and verse please where Satan forces the Second Coming.

Big Smiles!

Reminds me of the Beatles song (L)ucy in the (S)ky with (D)iamonds

Beetles jamming, Strobe lights, lava lamps, and dancing tied dyed tapestry!

 

[Timtofly]

You just side-stepped the question the way I wrote it which was based on what you had written it in post #227. Your original claim was the Zech. 14 refers to a 1,000 year millennium. Admit that you cannot back up that claim Tim.

Nope, that was never posted. You are referring to this post that does not mention 1,000 nor a Millennium. It was not even a statement of fact. It was two questions. That no one has answered nor can answer, because it is avoided like the plague of covid 19.

Are you saying this will never ever happen, ever? God's Word will never come to pass in most instances?

Where in this entire post of 19 words is this trumped up charge you keep insisting on?

Admit you cannot even answer a simple question. Yet you keep on insisting post after post after post after post that you have no answer. To top it all off, it was not even a question addressed to you, but a totally different poster. Obviously they have no answer either.

You do not need 1,000 to show up in any text, not even in Revelation 20, but if it did, you would still not acknowledge a future point in time. You already claim Zechariah 14 is talking about after the Cross, and not after the Second Coming. The 1,000 is not relevant at all. The question was about the events mentioned in Zechariah 14, not what John mentioned in Revelation 20. Pre-mill contrary to popular amil "think tanks", do not need to force words into any text. It is called comparing Scripture with Scripture. It is not called re-writing Scripture to form a new canon of Scripture where every chapter states the same exact words as every other related chapter.

 

[Timtofly]

Big Smiles!

Reminds me of the Beatles song (L)ucy in the (S) with (D)iamonds

Beetles jamming, Strobe lights, lava lamps, and dancing tied died tapestry!

You think scientist are high on drugs when claiming there are trillions of stars? I thought no human could even count them all. I guess if they are countable when scientist are not high on drugs, then we can declare that number as how many angels are coming to earth at the 6th Seal, the Second Coming. The event that both Matthew and John covered about the words of Jesus on the mount of Olives.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Once again, this is exactly what "Spiritual Israelite" said.....

"Do you see Zechariah 14:16-21 as describing the millennium after Christ returns as most Premils do?"​

This was your reply to SJ's reference to Zechariah 14:16-21....

"Are you saying this [1,000 millennium] will never ever happen, ever? God's Word will never come to pass in most instances?"​

So please do not continue to trash me because you are unable to answer that question! I don't think you can answer it because you know adding to God's Holy word is wrong when what you were being indignant to SJ about {a millennium} that s not in Zec. 14!

 

[Keraz]

The Established Church as the People of God of the New Covenant, isn’t a correct statement as it is only individuals who qualify according to their faith and righteousness.

In the New Testament no emphasis is given to any select group, but only to the whole company of what the NT calls ‘the elect,’ ‘the saints,’ ‘the disciples,’ ‘the brothers and sisters.’ If we recognize that all born again, baptized believers make up the Body of Christ and the People of God, we won’t make the mistake of identifying the true church with the Established Church. The real church is always the whole People of God, the whole ekklesia, the whole Body of Christ, the whole communion (fellowship, koinonia) of the disciples of Jesus. It includes lay persons, clergy and non-church people. All faithful Christian believers make up and belong together to the chosen race, the royal priesthood, the holy nation.

This implies a second conclusion: that as Christians, all members of the Church are fundamentally equal. All equally have been called by God to belong, all equally have been justified by Christ, all equally have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit. All equally have been called to respond to the message, the person and the work of Christ, by their faith, their commitment, their cooperation, their trust and their love. In principle also, all are equally responsible for the Church’s work in the world, its mission to spread to Gospel.

The gifts of the Spirit result in different services, tasks, functions and offices, but they are secondary to the fundamental membership in the Church which is based on true belief, and to the life of discipleship which stems from keeping the Commandments and doing the works according each individual’s situation. What counts more than any ministry or office, however exalted, is whether we live authentically as members of the chosen People of God.


Do we live in faith, hope and love in covenant relationship with God and with our fellow disciples of Jesus?

For, more than anything, the Church is the community of the disciples of Jesus. Everything else is secondary and subordinate to that. The shared call to baptism and discipleship has meant that from the beginning all kinds of people, sometimes persons naturally opposed, have joined the church and belonged to the congregation.

Jews and Gentiles, free citizens and slaves, rich and poor, men and women, have shared with one another in the life of the Church as fellow disciples of Jesus Christ, their Lord. An important point is that only through Jesus, has every Christian become the People of God in the New Covenant.

This has happened ‘in Christ,’ as Paul says. This truth raises two questions, vital questions in Christian-Jewish dialogue and reconciliation today:
1. Has God rejected His ethnic people and been unfaithful to his promises?
2. Have the Jews ceased to be a People of God?

These are difficult questions, which have been debated by Bible scholars and theologians for many years. To both of these questions the Apostle Paul has given a decisive ‘No!’ But as we see today sadly: most Jews continue to reject Jesus.

So; who exactly is the Israel of God now?
We know from Romans 9:27, that Israel is as numerous as the sands of the sea and 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1 both send greetings to the Twelve Tribes, scattered abroad.
The Jews alone do not fit either of these criteria.

The truth, that God has kept hidden from general knowledge, is that the ten Northern tribes, taken to the Caucasus region by Assyria did not remain there and they migrated across Europe, Jeremiah 31:21, they now comprise most of the Western peoples and have become the Christian nations.

That God’s Plan to have a people that bear the proper fruit; as the Jews rejected Him, Matthew 21:43, HAS been successful and that Western Christians are mostly Israelites: actual descendants of Jacob, is nothing short of miraculous and shows God’s amazing Plan of sending Jesus to be our Redeemer and Savior, to be God’s fulfilment of Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 7:37

Note: that Jesus came to be our Redeemer. To redeem someone means to reinstate them, to buy them back again from a fallen state.

Our destiny as born again Christians, is to be the people God has never had, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, Acts 1:8 and displaying His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14 It will be our privilege and our honour, as He showers His Spirit and His Blessings upon His righteous people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Revelation 7:9


The acceptance of the Gospel by some Jews like Paul means that their apostasy is not total. But the bulk of the ethnic Christian Israel of God are His people who have forgotten their ancestry. In the end times, their eyes will be opened and their ears unstopped; Isaiah 32:3-4
All the true righteous and faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, will be citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land, but in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, the majority will be the actual descendants of Jacob. Amos 9:9, Jeremiah 50:4-7

As Paul asserts: in the end "all Israel will be saved.” That is: every ethnic Israelite faithful to God, will enter the holy Land, accompanied by every true Christian Gentile, all members of the Israel of God, Isaiah 56:1-8, Ephesians 2:1-18, but ALL who reject Him will not. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Hebrews 10:26-27

 

[Timtofly]

Once again, this is exactly what "Spiritual Israelite" said.....

"Do you see Zechariah 14:16-21 as describing the millennium after Christ returns as most Premils do?"​

This was your reply to SJ's reference to Zechariah 14:16-21....

"Are you saying this [1,000 millennium] will never ever happen, ever? God's Word will never come to pass in most instances?"​

So please do not continue to trash me because you are unable to answer that question! I don't think you can answer it because you know adding to God's Holy word is wrong when what you were being indignant to SJ about {a millennium} that s not in Zec. 14!

Once again, I was asking about Zechariah 14 and not about Revelation 20.

You think all evil will be gone during a future millennium after Christ's return? Do you see Zechariah 14:16-21 as describing the millennium after Christ returns as most Premils do? If so, then what do you make of the evil described there, such as people refusing to go worship the Lord?

Even Truth7t7 addressed the part of the quote I was asking about:

Zechariah 14 represents the "Eternal Kingdom" in the New heaven and earth

Scripture states "IF"

No evil is present as you claim, it's a warning, it hasn't taken place

Zechariah 14:18KJV
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

I did not ask Truth7t7. I asked the other poster the question. The other poster pointed out the alledged "gross wickedness" (evil) of nations not going up.

I simply asked when in history has this "evil" occurred? Both you and the poster insinuate we think this is the millennium. That is not my point, even if that is the only option available. My point is when did this ever happen, since obviously you two deny any future millennium post the Second Coming.

You totally avoided the question and demand God to announce a 1,000 year millennium in Zechariah 14 so the words in Revelation 20 are legitimate. What other reason is there to keep insisting such words are not written in Zechariah 14? It is not trashing you. You seem to insistently be doing that all by yourself, as no one is claiming nor has claimed what you are asking.

 

[Timtofly]

The truth, that God has kept hidden from general knowledge, is that the ten Northern tribes, taken to the Caucasus region by Assyria did not remain there and they migrated across Europe, Jeremiah 31:21, they now comprise most of the Western peoples and have become the Christian nations

Not just Europe. They were sent all over the earth. China, India, Africa. They ended up even in the Americas. The problem is the Gospel itself remained strong in Europe and even Asia and did not follow them throughout the earth. Some remained faithful to the Law, but most just integrated too far into local culture. The lost tribes had a 700 year head start migrating over the earth ahead of the Gospel.

The point many miss is the Gospel did not make it much further than the Roman Empire successfully, like the people of Israel themselves did. Even Hinduism changed and integrated the Gospel into it's teachings. The Gospel did not change Hinduism. Hinduism changed the Gospel. It was not until the British expansion that the Gospel once again was heard throughout the earth.

 

[ewq1938]

So why deny all those stars are the angels coming to earth that will still exist? It is is the sudden overwhelming movement of trillions of angels coming to earth, that produces this phenomenon the heavens and the earth being destroyed by fire. While all the works of mankind will be burned up as well. Then you claim people will be watching it all on TV. How if every work of man will be burned up? How is that a quiet Second Coming?

This is not even Armageddon. No angels are mentioned at Armageddon, but Satan. This is not Satan marching across the earth and his human army consumed by fire. How would Satan know to march across the earth at the exact moment of the Second Coming? Is Satan forcing God to start the Second Coming? Chapter and verse please where Satan forces the Second Coming.

God forced satan to have the army at Armageddon in the 6th seal and that army isn't killed by fire.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Once again, I was asking about Zechariah 14 and not about Revelation 20.

Once again you are being dishonest because I did not refer to Rev. 20 at all. It is you that brought the 1,000 yr. millennium into Zechariah 14.

 

[ewq1938]

Here are corroborations of the Premill interpretation of Rev 20's "a thousand years":




Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Christ speaks of them holding fast until he returns, his second coming.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After the end there will be saints who have power over the nations/gentiles!


Rev 2:27 And he (each overcoming saint) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


So after the second coming, and after saints overcoming, and after "the end" there will be power given to the overcomers over the nations/gentiles in conjunction with a rule with a rod of iron (which breaks their organizations apart).

And of course there still needs to be a judgment day for the unsaved after this period of overcomers having "power over the nations" where there is "rule with a rod of iron".

Exactly what is found in chapters 19 and 20 of Revelation.

Same scriptures using some colored comments:


Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. (Christ speaks of the second coming, also seen in Rev 19)
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: (after the second coming the saints become overcomers, and AFTER THE END they are given power and rule over the nations/gentiles)
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Again, proof that "the end" is not the end. There is rule over the gentile nations AFTER the second coming and AFTER the "end".




Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. (as seen in Rev 19 the second coming)
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. (as seen in Rev 20 where some of the unsaved and satan live for a period of TIME, the thousand years)


Here also is corroboration of the Millennium where after the beast is destroyed by fire (same as in Rev 19 just prior to the Millennium) there are some beasts left alive to have their lives prolonged (for a thousand years no less), which is why satan and a large number of unsaved gentiles live through the 1000 years.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The beast even has 3.5 years to reign over the saints, we see the same in Rev 13 about the beast overcoming the saints and having 42 months which is the same time length.




Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.



This predicts a period of time in this age, before the NHNE, where there shall be no more wars. This is another verse that corroborates Premill and the idea of a future period of time (the Millennium) before the NHNE that is peaceful and without war. Where in Amill can this war-less period of time exist within the latter days? Answer is, there is no room in Amill to have these verses fulfilled.


Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Again, after the second coming, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion and in Jerusalem, we see a period of time where the unsaved wicked are alive before receiving their punishment. This is again a small glimpse of the Millennium period corroborating the Premill understanding of Rev 20.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Here are corroborations of the Premill interpretation of Rev 20's "a thousand years":

Here is corroborations of the Amill interpretation of Rev 20's "a thousand years:

Psa 50:10...For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. (Does God have cattle on "a thousand hills?")

2Pe 3:8...But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Heb 9:26..."for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."​

Ephesians 2:19-22 - "Consequently, you [Ephesian Gentiles) are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you [Ephesians] too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." (See also I Cor. 3:16 and II Cor. 6:16)
​

Why do you deny that God has brought both the Jews and Gentiles together in one body of Christ - not two as dispensationalism and pre-tribbers do?

John 10:16..."so that there would be "one flock and one shepherd".​

 

[Timtofly]

God forced satan to have the army at Armageddon in the 6th seal and that army isn't killed by fire.

That is because all the rest of humanity had to show up. That was the winepress of God's wrath. Adam's flesh and blood ends at Armageddon. If no 42 months, the winepress of God's wrath is at the end of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 14 would be the end of the 7th Trumpet when the sickle is thrust upon the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Once again you are being dishonest because I did not refer to Rev. 20 at all. It is you that brought the 1,000 yr. millennium into Zechariah 14.

Oh really? Is the term 1,000 found any where else as in Millennium, other than Revelation 20? You insinuated the point, not me.

Are you saying this will never ever happen, ever? God's Word will never come to pass in most instances?

Tim, what verse in Zech 14:16-21 mentions a 1,000 year millennium please?

Had you never posted this unrelated question, many post would have been never made after that point. I keep saying I was not talking about "1,000", and you keep putting words into that post. You seem to be rooting more for a future 1,000 years than any one ever intended. I am still looking for an historical time when Zechariah 14 came to pass, BTW. If you think it is in Revelation 20, feel free to post that.

 

[Moriah's Song]

I keep saying I was not talking about "1,000", and you keep putting words into that post.

Mille = 1,000 (Grammer school kids know that)

 

[ewq1938]

Here is corroborations of the Amill interpretation of Rev 20's "a thousand years:

Psa 50:10...For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. (Does God have cattle on "a thousand hills?")​

Wrong language.

2Pe 3:8...But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

That is using an exact amount of years and comparing that to a literal day. That supports Premillennialism.

Heb 9:26..."for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

This is unrelated.

​

Ephesians 2:19-22 - "Consequently, you [Ephesian Gentiles) are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you [Ephesians] too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit." (See also I Cor. 3:16 and II Cor. 6:16)
​

Why do you deny that God has brought both the Jews and Gentiles together in one body of Christ - not two as dispensationalism and pre-tribbers do?

John 10:16..."so that there would be "one flock and one shepherd".​

This is unrelated.


So, you presented nothing to support a thousand in Greek means more than a thousand. Good job.

 

[n2thelight]

Why do you deny that God has brought both the Jews and Gentiles together in one body of Christ - not two as dispensationalism and pre-tribbers do?

Thank you . There's only one Israel, period! ,if one believes in Christ they automatically become Israel , two trees and even natural Israel can be cut off from their own tree .

Again two choices , the mark of the beast or the seal of God

 

[Truth7t7]

Once again, I was asking about Zechariah 14 and not about Revelation 20.



Even Truth7t7 addressed the part of the quote I was asking about:




I did not ask Truth7t7. I asked the other poster the question. The other poster pointed out the alledged "gross wickedness" (evil) of nations not going up.

I simply asked when in history has this "evil" occurred? Both you and the poster insinuate we think this is the millennium. That is not my point, even if that is the only option available. My point is when did this ever happen, since obviously you two deny any future millennium post the Second Coming.

You totally avoided the question and demand God to announce a 1,000 year millennium in Zechariah 14 so the words in Revelation 20 are legitimate. What other reason is there to keep insisting such words are not written in Zechariah 14? It is not trashing you. You seem to insistently be doing that all by yourself, as no one is claiming nor has claimed what you are asking.

I fully agree with Moriah, Zechariah 14 represents the eternal kingdom in the New Heaven and Earth,as Zechariah 14:8 shows the river of life flowing out of Jerusalem "Eternal"

 

[Timtofly]

I fully agree with Moriah, Zechariah 14 represents the eternal kingdom in the New Heaven and Earth,as Zechariah 14:8 shows the river of life flowing out of Jerusalem "Eternal"

And God will allow disobedience in the New Heaven and Earth?

 

[Truth7t7]

And God will allow disobedience in the New Heaven and Earth?

Once Again

Scripture states "IF"

No evil is present as you claim, it's a warning, it hasn't taken place

Zechariah 14:18KJV
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[Moriah's Song]

So, you presented nothing to support a thousand in Greek means more than a thousand. Good job.

Corrupting text is a sign of denial of the truth of scripture.