You have no understanding of the prophecy regarding the day of the Lord because you're trying to force it into your unbiblical doctrinal timeframe, i.e. one thousand literal years, seven literal years, 42 literal months, 1260 literal days etc. etc. etc. You have absolutely ZERO understanding of how the day of the Lord is spiritually fulfilled, and is being spiritually fulfilled, as the Kingdom of God in heaven is being complete through the Gospel proclaimed unto nations of the world then the END shall come!
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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You have no understanding of the prophecy regarding the day of the Lord because you're trying to force it into your unbiblical doctrinal timeframe, i.e. one thousand literal years, seven literal years, 42 literal months, 1260 literal days etc. etc. etc. You have absolutely ZERO understanding of how the day of the Lord is spiritually fulfilled, and is being spiritually fulfilled, as the Kingdom of God in heaven is being complete through the Gospel proclaimed unto nations of the world then the END shall come!
Vengeance isn’t taken on believers, only unbelievers, right?
It could be that the DOTL is described as something good for believers but something not good for unbelievers.
Can you really not understand the day of the Lord from first advent to the sounding of the last trumpet equates to ALL TIME from the first advent to TIME (the day of the Lord) shall be no longer????
Shall the day of the Lord be darkness and not light for all people? Or will His day be a darkness and not light only for those who refuse to come to the light?
The DOTL could be everlasting as Revelation 21:23 describes New Jerusalem as not needing the sun because the Lamb is the light.
Maybe the DOTL is total darkness for unbelievers and total light for believers, both conditions being called DOTL.
I don't think the DOTL involves the millennium though, since the DOTL involves darkness, even if literal darkness is not meant. The millennium couldn't possibly be involving darkness, in any sense.
But where does it ever say in the Bible, where the context undeniably pertains to the DOTL, that it involves light?
All who have physically died in faith are the dead in Christ.
When Jesus spoke these words remember He was about to resurrect faithful Lazarus from physical death, returning life to his mortal body. If we try to read this as meaning that mortal humans of flesh and blood would never die, we might conclude that Jesus is a bit off his rocker, because Lazarus, whom He loved had certainly died.
The only way to understand what Christ means when He tells us the whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die is to understand He was not speaking of human flesh, but of human spirits who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Those who have the Holy Spirit will die physically, but since the advent of Christ coming to make atonement for sin, and conquer death they are eternally spiritually alive even believers physically die. That's why Christ also tells us not to fear those who might kill our body but cannot kill the soul. (Mt 10:28) Because believers continue to be living souls, as spiritual body in heaven through the Holy Spirit within.
Christ sent His Spirit to be in whosoever believe in Him. When the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, Christ will physically return for both those who have already died in Him, and those who are still physically alive at His coming. Then we shall all together inherit everlasting life in immortal & incorruptible physical body to live with Christ forever on the new earth.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What do you mean? It's both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain that will be caught up so Paul could say "we" regardless of whether he ended up being one of the dead in Christ or one of those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.
Well, where are the believers during the DOTL? They are not taking part in the vengeance. The instructions to flee are given when the AOD is seen, which means there is a separation that happens. Also the instructions are given to come out of Babylon.
If we equate those under the altar at the fifth seal as wait for vengeance/DOTL, then for them the DOTL is a positive event that they have been asking for.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Can you not understand none of these verses agree with your conclusion?
The day of the Lord is a dreadful day, a day of darkness and destruction.
Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
Isaiah 13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel 2
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joel 5
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
Joel 3
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
Amos 5
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
The day of the Lord is only dreadful and darkness for those who choose to remain in the darkness rather than to turn to the LIGHT of Christ!
The Light
Well-Known Member
No sir. The Day of the Lord is a dreadful day. It is the seventh seal wrath of God.
I'm pretty sure you won't get this, but anyway................
The Church will be in heaven before the Great Tribulation. It will be like the days of Noah.
God then opens part of Israels eyes.....the seed of the woman. There are 144,000 first fruits which are the first fruits of the second. harvest. The second harvest, when it's like the days of Lot occurs at the 6th seal. This is the second coming.
Then after this harvest, the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.
The only believers on earth will be the two witnesses and those that were in the nation of Israel that fled when the abomination of desolation occurs. They will flee to a protected place prepared for them.
The earth will be full of the unrighteous, including the fallen angels.
The Light
Well-Known Member
No sir. The Day of the Lord is a dreadful day. It is the seventh seal wrath of God.
I'm pretty sure you won't get this, but anyway................
The Church will be in heaven before the Great Tribulation. It will be like the days of Noah.
God then opens part of Israels eyes.....the seed of the woman. There are 144,000 first fruits which are the first fruits of the second. harvest. The second harvest, when it's like the days of Lot occurs at the 6th seal. This is the second coming.
Then after this harvest, the seventh seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.
The only believers on earth will be the two witnesses and those that were in the nation of Israel that fled when the abomination of desolation occurs. They will flee to a protected place prepared for them.
The earth will be full of the unrighteous, including the fallen angels.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Not for the church it isn't a dreadful day. You're only looking at half of the story.
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
For those of us who are in the light rather than the darkness it will be a glorious day.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where are you getting this from? What basis is there for claiming that the dead in Christ are only OT believers?
He wasn't talking about never dying bodily there. Obviously. He was saying they will never experience the second death. The dead in Christ are only dead bodily. They will all be raised bodily from the dead when Jesus returns in the future.
Not bodily. The dead in Christ are all going to be resurrected at the same time which will be at His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23) which will occur at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52). Nowhere does scripture teach that anyone is raised bodily before then.
Something I can at least agree with anyway. It's basically the timing of it where you and I don't appear to be on the same page in regards to. You think it already began thousands of years ago, I don't. I think it is a one time only event that hasn't occurred yet. But when it does it will be something that won't be affecting the saved the way it will be affecting the unsaved. Kind of like the following, for example.
Exodus 10:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings
Unlike Pretrib where they think God can only protect them from His wrath by removing them first, no one needed to be removed per the Exodus 10 account in order for it to be dark over the entire land, but where the children of Israel were dwelling in this same land, they had light in their dwellings. Pretribbers act as if some things are impossible for God to do, that He can't enact His wrath upon the lost if the church is still here at the time since Pretribbers apparently think the church would be affected by this wrath as well, if they are still here. The thing is though, great tribulation is not God's wrath, the DOTL is and follows after great tribulation according to Matthew 24:29, for one. IOW, great tribulation and the DOTL are not involving the same events. One of the reasons for the DOTL is because of great tribulation upon the church that just preceded it. Not the only reason, just one of them.
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