CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You really don't remember? Why continue with school-yard repartee?
The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
It is not in a single verse which is clear and plain for you. It is a study. An intense study which seems to perhaps be beyond your capacity so far in this thread. I gave you a list of Rapture scriptures and you didnt do anything with it besides ridicule it.
Onward Christian solder huh?!
Taken
Well-Known Member
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Are you not going try to show by scripture what you say to be true? You havent negated anything, just stated an opinion.
Here I'll give you a couple scriptures to chew on. We are not subject to Wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,,,,/KJV
Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth..../KJV
At His coming to us when the last trumpet sounds shall be physical. When Christ sends His Spirit to be within believers, His presence within is not seen with physical sight, and must be spiritually understood. We can plainly understand, if we accept the Words of the Bible, that when Scripture speaks of Christ coming to us on the last day it is always referring to Him coming again visibly.
Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
If that is so, then what should I do with the scriptures 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Revelation 3:10? Tear them out of my Bible or what?
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Turn the page. In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 it says we are not subject to wrath.
He's talking about the unbelievers in chapter 4
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Let me ask you question. Supposing that nothing has been established to us yet, would you rather that the Rapture would come pre trib? Or are you looking forward to going through the great trib?
These are the words from the prophets of Old that should give us the ability to understand that the coming day of the Lord they foretell would come, came with the first advent of Christ come to earth a man. But the day of the Lord they foretell would come consists of the entire New Covenant AGE of grace as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world. The day of the Lord for the Old Covenant prophets was in the future for them but is in the past for all who live and die since the first advent of Christ. Since the authors of the New Testament lived and died after the first advent of Christ, they too write of the day of the Lord that shall come, but for all who live and die from the first advent of Christ, should understand THAT DAY will be when the last trumpet sounds that this age of God's grace as the Gospel of Christ is proclaimed, that the Kingdom of God in heaven should be complete has an end, just as John writes in Rev 10:5-7.
This is all your own reasoning. Sadly, you are limiting God because your doctrine requires that. You are forced to twist the meaning.
Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”
Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other. There is absolutely nothing that Premillennialists can do with such a clear and climactic passage apart from deny the obvious or add unto Scripture by inserting “a thousand years” in-between the coming (parousia) of Christ and the end (telos) where it does not belong. This is the dilemma for Premil throughout the Word. They are fighting the obvious.
The Greek simply reads:
Christos – Christ
en – at
autos – His
parousia – coming
eita – then
telos – the end
The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.
The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.
The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish. This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.
The Apostle Paul instructs the believer in 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 to “come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming [Gr. parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end [Gr. telos], that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The coming of the Lord is again associated with “the end.” We can see here how the phrases “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” and “the end” are depicted as synonymous. The second coming is depicted throughout the Word as a climactic event that ushers in the conclusion of time. Within this teaching is a comforting promise for every child of God that that Christ shall “confirm” or establish or secure us “unto the end.”
The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning “end.” They are the antithesis of each other. The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished. Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” [Gr. telos] to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of this age and of time.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Dreamt up in the 1800's...So it is a conspiracy to deceive the Believers in Christ to believe that the Rapture shall come early so we all better drop to our knees and to be watching for the Lord at any moment....????? !!!!
Can you tell me where is the danger which comes from looking sooner rather than later for the Lord? That doesn't sound like a conspiracy to me! LOL!
We call those types of things, Warnings! Hahahah. Is that how smart the enemy is? Sneak into the Christian camp and say hey christian brothers better drop to your knees and pray and train for your Lord to rescue you sooner than you thought He might....??
I dunno, that dont sound like a good deception to me. If I'm deceived into a wrongness of a pretrib rapture...but it causes me to push in to the Lord Now and sooner....I cant see any danger there!
I remember when the Lord came to me and audibly spoke to me and told me to pray for a certain person who needs help right now (A Brother in Christ). I recounted this Testimony several times here and there and one time I got taken to task for it and advised that, it was an evil spirit that came to deceive me....Lol!
Like the enemy would come and tell a Christian to pray to the Lord to help another Christian who needed help, LOL!! The enemies mission is to steal kill and destroy, not...pray that God helps this christian man who needs help...!!
(Or even...draw closer to God now because the Rapture could happen anytime! )
Post trib is Hilarious!
MA2444
Well-Known Member
WHat? That's not what it says.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him..../KJV
Your memory isnt as good as you thought it was! Time for some Rosemary tea!
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Huh? It's not avoidance. I caught his mistake. He misquoted scripture or had a typo or something. Making such a peon mistake that that doesnt encourage me at all that you two big high and Mighty post tribber preachers seem to hold yourself. He just hurt his own credibility. ...and his Pastor backs him up in his mistake?! Wow bro, just wow.
I brought his attention to it and didnt avoid anything. There's a big difference there lol.
Hey maybe he did that on purpose just to see if I was paying attention?!
Again, no hard Scripture, just opinions and stories. These are totally inadmissible.
You might not realize it, but this is where 2 Peter 3:8 might help us here, since , like you pointed out, those things logically can't fit within a 24 hour day, but they can certainly fit within a day involving a thousand years, though. Think about it. What is a day? It is an era of time. 24 hours is an era time. A thousand years is an era of time. When looking at it like that, 2 Peter 3:8 makes plenty of sense. It simply means an era of time involving a thousand years, a thousand literal years, the same way 24 hours is an era of time involving 24 literal hours.
CadyandZoe
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