The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I did mean 1 Cor 15:23
Verse 22, refers to those whose names will be found in the Book of Life, after the Millennium.
ALL is not implied in verse 23, as that addition, contradicts Revelation 20:5, where it is plainly stated that the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

LOL. Look at you trying to manipulate scrpiture to make it say what you want it to say. Pathetic. We should use plain, straightforward scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 to help understand more difficult scripture contained in books like Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation, but you do it the other way around. Your approach to interpreting scripture is terrible. And you don't accept what Paul taught, either. I've seen this on this form from a few others as well. They undermine Paul's teachings and disregard them.

It is wakadoodle to think the 'last days', involves 2000 years.
Peter applied Joel 2:28-29 to what happened then, as it was a preview of that Prophecy, Proved by how the cosmic signes that both Joel and Peter mention, did not happen in the first century.

LOL. Again you are making scripture say what you want it to say. Peter said "this is that" in reference to Joel 2:28-32. That means the prophecy had begun to be fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Your denial of that says it all about you and your desire to make scripture say what you want it to say. The prophecy relates directly to the time when people would call on the name of the Lord to be saved and God would send His Spirit to dwell in people and that began on the day of Pentecost. I backed up what I said with scripture. You are backing up your claims with NOTHING but your imagination.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, this is a problem for his view.

No, it isn't. The problem is people misrepresenting our view. Stop the ignorance. We (amils) have the rapture occurring and then immediately after that Christ destroys all of His enemies. Very simple. It's described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see that you attempt to back up your view with scripture, but sometimes, your view is incorrect. My point is that you resist correction through ridicule. Your call for proof is disingenuous.

Let's not forget, I too have substantiated my interpretation with scripture.

You have? I don't think so. You may reference scripture occasionally, but you never exegete it. You're just like the pretribs in that way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That sounds suspiciously like you believe in pretrib rapture then. We know that at least some go to heaven, right? So if what you say is true then we should be hoping to see Jesus now, pre trib.

WIll you clarify your position because if this is your thread then this is contradictory to the OP.

What is hard to understand about this? Just read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3. Believers will be caught up to Christ when He comes and then He will destroy all of His enemies with "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now that's absolutely uncanny, that is the exact way that I learned it. If pretribbers are in delusion why are we all taught the same things?

Simple. All pretribs are taught the same delusion that was originally dreamt up in the 1800s.

 

[WPM]

You oversimplify the run-up to his return and leave out too much information. You read everything through your Amil colored glasses and you don't allow others, including the Bible, to correct your mistakes. 1948 destroyed the Amil position.

Not so! I let the Bible speak for itself. It is mine that complicates biblical truth.

 

[WPM]

Ahem...show me Lot rescued post Sodom firestorm.
Which is what you are saying.
BOTH GATHERED BEFORE ANY JUDGEMENT.
You are not aware that a postrib model has both rescued post judgement?????
You really can not see the normal life setting of the pretrib rapture verses????

The Bible clearly has 2 gatherings in mat 25.
Vivid and clear.
Then another gathering if Jews midtrib in Rev 14.
The "one coming" doctrine is easily debunked

It is so vividly clear that you are incapable of showing it. There is one final future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[IndianaRob]

What is hard to understand about this? Just read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3. Believers will be caught up to Christ when He comes and then He will destroy all of His enemies with "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

Which “coming”? Have you considered that Jesus comes to us at salvation? What about when it’s time to die? Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus ready to take him to heaven.

We can’t assume that every time the Bible talks about Jesus coming that it’s always referring to the second coming.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, it isn't. The problem is people misrepresenting our view. Stop the ignorance. We (amils) have the rapture occurring and then immediately after that Christ destroys all of His enemies. Very simple. It's described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.

You didn't address his objection. Placing the rapture at the end makes it unnecessary.

 

[Davidpt]

Please explain.

What is there to explain? The end is meaning after the great white throne judgment has commenced and ended. Until the great white throne judgment, regardless when it is meaning, has fully concluded, no way can it be the end yet. Clearly, the rapture precedes the great white throne judgment regardless when the rapture is meaning. IOW, no way is the rapture and the great white throne judgment the same event. No way can the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:28 arrive within 24 hours of Christ having returned, totally impossible.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is when the end has arrived. This cannot happen the same day Christ returns. No way, the day Christ returns can the great white throne judgment have begun and concluded, then God is all in all on the very same day Christ returns. IOW, no way can the great white throne judgment fit within a 24 hour day or less. Not to mention, neither can the following fit a single 24 hour day.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It is plain silly to think the same day Christ returns they fulfill Matthew 19:28 entirely. Then before 24 hours are up God is all in all, thus 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled. Keeping in mind that anything involving more than 24 hours can no longer mean the same day Christ returned.

IOW, for example. Let's say Christ returns on July 19, 2030 at exactly 12 am central time. Obviously, 24 hours later is no longer July 19, 2030, the day Christ returned. It is a new day. The point being, per this example if Matthew 19:28 begins on July 19, 2030 but is still in progress after July 19, 2030 ends, obviously we can't be in the time of 1 Corinthians 15:28 yet because what Matthew 19:28 is involving has to be fulfilled first.

Only per something as silly as Amil can Christ return and then that very same day He returns, 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, therefore, not allowing enough time for Matthew 19:28 to be fulfilled, nor allowing enough time for the great white throne judgment to be fulfilled. Neither of those events can be fulfilled within 24 hours or less since that is preposterous, not even remotely reasonable. Keeping in mind, once 24 hours comes and goes, after Christ having returned, it is no longer the same day Christ returned. Therefore, a thousand year period post that of the 2nd coming is not silly at all, though Amils make it out to be silly. But at least it can explain Matthew 19:28 post the 2nd coming, for example, since what is recorded in that verse obviously requires more than a single day to fulfill it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You have? I don't think so. You may reference scripture occasionally, but you never exegete it. You're just like the pretribs in that way.

You need to have your memory checked.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which “coming”?

The one described in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

This one:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Do you believe Jesus will one day come from heaven in like manner as He went up to heaven, which was visibly and bodily?

Have you considered that Jesus comes to us at salvation? What about when it’s time to die? Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus ready to take him to heaven.

He was talking about his spirit. Do you make no differentiation between the body, soul and spirit?

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

We can’t assume that every time the Bible talks about Jesus coming that it’s always referring to the second coming.

Sure. So? What is your point?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You need to have your memory checked.

LOL. You have no idea what exegesis is. It's not something you have done. And how could you even do it? Using what? You don't trust any English Bible translations.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You didn't address his objection. Placing the rapture at the end makes it unnecessary.

Why? Should He just leave us on the earth while He is burning it up?

 

[grafted branch]

IOW, no way can the great white throne judgment fit within a 24 hour day or less. Not to mention, neither can the following fit a single 24 hour day.

What about Zechariah 14? It has a day that doesn’t seem to fit a 24 hour period.

Zechariah 14: 6And it shall come to pass in that day, thatthe light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.


13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.


20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is there to explain? The end is meaning after the great white throne judgment has commenced and ended. Until the great white throne judgment, regardless when it is meaning, has fully concluded, no way can it be the end yet. Clearly, the rapture precedes the great white throne judgment regardless when the rapture is meaning. IOW, no way is the rapture and the great white throne judgment the same event. No way can the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:28 arrive within 24 hours of Christ having returned, totally impossible.

LOL. You make all these claims while doing NOTHING to back them up. Do you imagine that you're making a strong argument here? You're not. No one is saying that the judgment takes place at the same exact moment as the rapture, but we believe everything will happen quickly when Jesus comes. We will all be changed in a moment (1 Cor 15:51-52). That's not up for debate. I believe everything else will take place very quickly at that point. We will be caught up to meet Christ and He will destroy His enemies. At that point, eternity is ushered in. The end of time will have come at that point. Revelation 20:11 talks about heaven and earth fleeing His presence when the judgment commences, so you know that heaven and earth will have passed away at that point. Just as scripture teaches will happen when Christ returns (Matt 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:3-13).

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is when the end has arrived. This cannot happen the same day Christ returns. No way, the day Christ returns can the great white throne judgment have begun and concluded, then God is all in all on the very same day Christ returns.

LOL. What is the name of the straw man you are talking to here? No one is saying that the judgment itself happens within 24 hours. I have explained this to you several times in the past. Why do you forget everything? The judgment clearly takes place in eternity and not in the realm of time. The end comes when Jesus has destroyed all His enemies and brings an end to this earth and an end to time itself. The judgment then takes place in eternity.

IOW, no way can the great white throne judgment fit within a 24 hour day or less.

LOL. No one is saying that. You waste more time than anyone making straw man arguments.

 

[MA2444]

Which is why Noah and Lot frustrate them.
They actually need both to be gathered post Flood or judgement.

Postrib rapture DEPENDS on omission and refraining the Bible.
Omit....reframe.... name call...repeat.

They also seem to demonstrate that they have no clue about how much the Lord loves us or what our purpose on earth is. I call this earth, God University of Brotherly Love. Our two greatest charges are to Love God with all our heart and to Love our Brothers as ourself.

When I approached God for help He jumped at the chance to help me. And seeing it after I had been facing death I became seriously dedicated to the Lord in gratitude for saving me. That was 2009/10 and what do you suppose the Lord has been teaching me about the most since then? About His Love and Love in general. He never really came right out and said it (besides in His Word), but...He loves His Bride now Fiance so much that it's obvious that Jesus would not treat His Bride like that, Great Tribulation, Wrath of God. Geezow man that's for the Unbelievers and Israel as a nation.

Would you take your Fiance to a gang fight. Honey we're going out but have to stop by a gang fight and you will get the crap beaten out of you but I'll sponge you up and then we can go to dinner!

Uhhh, No.

 

[rwb]

The pre, mid, nor post trib positions can ever be reconciled because there is no such thing as the “rapture” and is proven in this verse.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul is describing an event that HE was going to take part in. To say otherwise is a private interpretation.

Read the whole context:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul tells us that some who are of the body of Christ physically have died. After their deaths, their spirit returned to God in heaven, just as the spirit of Christ did also.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The spirit of believers being eternally alive through His Spirit within does not cease to be living souls in heaven where they are the spiritual (no longer physical) body of Christ. On earth they were physically the body of Christ, but since our mortal & corruptible body cannot inherit the Kingdom of God in heaven physically, for them to have eternal life as Christ has promised, only the spiritual body of Christ is alive in heaven after they breathe their last.

It is this spiritual body of Christ who have put off their body of flesh that returns with Christ when the last trumpet sounds. They must return with Christ, because both physical and spiritual life is of the spirit naturally, and the Holy Spirit supernaturally. Our natural spirit gives our physical body life, and the Holy Spirit supernaturally gives everlasting life to our spirit, not our flesh & blood.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

When the physical body of believers has died, it is raised, not resurrected because the spirit within believers can never die, but the spirit in believers through the power of the Holy Spirit leaves the natural body to be a spiritual body in heaven. It this were not true; Christ would not have assured us that when we live and believe in Him we shall NEVER die. Christ knew our physical flesh would eventually succumb to death, yet He tells us our life through Him shall never die, because Christ knew that after our body is dead and buried, believers ascend to heaven a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The spiritual body returns with Christ to once again give life to our resurrected physical body, only then our body is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible, fit for everlasting life with Christ on the new earth, not this earth that shall be burned up. They are resurrected and changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air (raptured). But they are not the only faithful saints to be caught up with the Lord. Because Paul tells us that whoever is still physically alive when the Lord comes again will also be raised up with them in bodies of flesh changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Then we shall be the complete Kingdom of God "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." (1Cor 15:24)

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Once the Kingdom of God (that is all who lived and believed in Christ for eternal life), have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air (raptured), the fire from heaven will consume every living thing left on this earth, so that all things can be made new again. Time for turning to Christ for eternal life shall be no longer (Rev 10:5-7).

Paul speaks of us-ward coming to repentance that we should not perish. Some will perish, and that shall be when the last trumpet sounds the Lord has come. The last trumpet, the day of the Lord, when He shall come again will come as a thief in the night to those who shall perish in the fervent heat with this earth when fire comes down from God out of heaven.

2 Peter 3:9-13 (KJV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why? Should He just leave us on the earth while He is burning it up?

Deal with his objection on his terms. Refrain from assuming your position is correct in your rebuttal. What good does it do to argue, "Your view is wrong because it disagrees with mine."

 

[IndianaRob]

The one described in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

This one:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Do you believe Jesus will one day come from heaven in like manner as He went up to heaven, which was visibly and bodily?


He was talking about his spirit. Do you make no differentiation between the body, soul and spirit?

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


Sure. So? What is your point?

My point is that Paul being one of the “WE that are caught up” rules out the “coming of the Lord” meaning the second coming.