The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

I used to believe everything you say, and I even argued in favour of your same arguments, and yet, here I am. What does that tell you?

It tells me that you've been duped by the false teaching of full preterism.

No one moves from understanding to ignorance, only from ignorance to understanding.

Nonsense! That happens all the time. You show your own ignorance by believing this nonsense. Is there no such thing as deception in your world where people are deceived into believing things that aren't true after previously believing the things that are true? Hello? You're not living in reality.

Maybe I'll set up a preterism thread and we can chat there.

I have no interest in discussing full preterism. It's a shameful doctrine that deserves nothing but scorn.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

IN brief….
the Life of ALL man’s body is it’s BLOOD.
ALL bodies must die. God requires that.

Any time a body DIES IN BELIEF…it shall be saved…THEN.

During the TRIB..all who reject Belief…SHALL Die…their departed living soul sent to hell.

You say that the trib can be compared to what happened with the flood in Noah's day, right? Where in either Matthew 24, 2 Peter 3 or Luke 17, where the wrath that will occur at Christ's second coming is compared to the flood of Noah's day, does it indicate that anyone will get the opportunity to repent and believe in Christ during the wrath that occurs after Christ comes and we're caught up to Him? Show me specifically where you are seeing that.

During the TRIB…some BELIEVING (but not converted IN Christ, shall NOT be Killed…they are called a Remnant. )They shall continue living, reproducing offspring, die….this occurs for 1,000 years, which during these 1,000 years….satan and all fallen angels are NOT on the earth…

Where do you see this taught in scripture? You said we can compare the wrath that occurs after the rapture to what happened with the flood in Noah's day, right? I'm pretty sure you indicated that. If so, how many people left out of the ark in Noah's day repented and were saved? Exactly none, right? So, what is your basis for thinking that any unbelievers who are left on the earth, when Jesus comes and the rapture occurs, will be converted at that point? Show me exactly where you are seeing that described in scripture. If you want to be taken seriously, then you will show the scripture that backs up your claims. If you don't, then you will continue to not do that. It's up to you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Zacharias believed the prophets of Old. His expectation was that the promised Redeemer he, and all Israel had long awaited had come at last. Yes, when Christ was born, like always the nation of Israel still believed He would rule over a physical Kingdom through military might, and did not understand that His Kingdom now would not be physical or on this earth and that He would rule over His Kingdom through His Spiritual army and not a physical army that would be for all believers, both Jew and Gentile of faith.

I don't agree with your conclusion that Zacharias was mistaken in his faith or hope. I pointed out that even the disciples wondered if God was going to restore the kingdom to Israel. And since Jesus didn't correct their view, I take this to mean that indeed, God was going to restore the kingdom to Israel, but not yet.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Spiritual discernment of the Bible must come from the Bible!

Okay, if that is true then all of what I said to you is spiritually discerned.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No we all don't!

We don't?

Yes, your analogies are a problem because they come from your own imagination and are not from the Bible.

Why do my analogies need to come from the Bible?

 

[IndianaRob]

I don't agree with your conclusion that Zacharias was mistaken in his faith or hope. I pointed out that even the disciples wondered if God was going to restore the kingdom to Israel. And since Jesus didn't correct their view, I take this to mean that indeed, God was going to restore the kingdom to Israel, but not yet.

@CadyandZoe

How do you reconcile Amos 8 with that view?

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

 

[rwb]

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is NOT pretribulation, and it is physical. Paul is telling us that when the Lord comes the dead in Christ will be physically raised from the graves to immortal and incorruptible physical body, and believers still alive at His coming will be caught up and physically changed with them. This is what some refer to as the coming rapture.

No kidding.
The Rapture is the WHOLE of a new creature being RAISED UP above the EARTH … BECAUSE such a man IS NOT SUBJECT TO THE TRIBULATIONS and WRATH that shall be send down from Heaven UPON the Earth….SAME AS IT IN Noah’s day…when God sent Tribulations and Wrath upon the Earth and Noah was NOT subjected to the Tribulations and Wrath send down from Heaven and INSTEAD Noah was RISEN UP ABOVE the EARTH…

Yes the rapture is the whole new man that shall once again be whole as man was created to be in the beginning, without sin and without death. The spiritual body that has ascended to heaven after physical death shall return with the Lord to give physical life to our resurrected physical body. (1Th 4:14) Believers shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air then the fire of God's wrath will come down to burn up this earth and everything still alive on it. The Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete, and after the wrath of God is over, the complete body/bride/church of Christ will inherit new heavens and a new earth where nothing impure shall enter. (Rev21:1-5)

Noah was NOT risen up above the earth, he was kept safe in the ark as the flood of waters carried the ark high about the earth on the water that covered the earth. Nothing in the text below indicates that Noah was risen up above the earth, only that the ark, that safely carried him was. But the ark as the passage shows NEVER left the earth! It was above the earth floating on the vast flood of water that covered the earth.

Genesis 7:17-20 (KJV) And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

No kidding!! He is called having been MADE WHOLE….and it is the Same who SHALL BE RAPTURED….RAISED UP above the earth…WHEN Tribulations and Wrath are sent down from Heaven!

Where does Scripture show that those who are made whole again shall escape tribulations that come upon the earth. There is a difference between the tribulations faithful saints are called to endure in this world, and the wrath of God that shall be poured out upon all who do NOT know God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All opinion and no scriptural evidence to back it up. As usual. This is a waste of time. The HEAVENLY Jerusalem is not on earth. Being redeemed FROM earth means you're not on earth.

You are repeating yourself.

Your arguments are complete nonsense and are a clear case of you making scripture say what you want it to say and not worth my time. Remind me again what biblical source you actually trust? I know you don't trust any English translations. Is it just your imagination that you put your trust in then?

I told you earlier that when you claim that my arguments are nonsense, I will interpret that as your inability to defend your position or refute my argument.

 

[rwb]

We don't?

Why do my analogies need to come from the Bible?

Aren't you here to study and learn from the Word of God? If you want to learn from man, why bother coming into a forum that promotes study of the Bible?

 

[Taken]

You don't know? Really? He's clearly referring to those who believe in a pre-trib rapture and think that we are wimps who need to be removed from the earth to avoid tribulation despite the fact that millions of Christians have gone through tribulation for almost 2,000 years at this point.

Nope didn’t know…Don’t think like you.
Men of all walks of life…have been persecuted BY OTHER MEN for centuries…

The End of Days Tribulations are NOT about suffering at the Hands of men….
* The End of Days Tribulation's and wrath IS suffering at the HAND of the Lamb of God…
Upon men who rejected believing IN HIM…
* the wrath of the devil….UPON men who rejected believing IN him.
* the wrath of God….UPON men who rejected believing IN Him…

You think yourself a tough guy and want to experience ANY of those SPIRITUAL Wraths….would you LIKE others to pray FFOR YOU…that YOU get what YOU want?

No one is denying that the rapture will happen,

Sure they do.

but do you accept what Jesus and Peter taught will happen when He comes that is just like what happened in the flood in Noah's day?

Already addressed that. It’s a similitude, not an exact replica…
Men will ignore the last days signs….watching CNN, ESPN, partying, etc.
ALL were Killed, except those risen up above the earth.
Last trib…Some shall be saved DURING the Trib…Less you forget…Gods Promise to save His People ISRAEL…
Ultimately all mortal life shall END.

All unbelievers were killed in the flood, right? Jesus said in relation to that: "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.". So, all unbelievers will be killed when He comes as well. Do you agree with Jesus about that?

IN CONTEXT…and TIMELINE…a one liner fails.

The Lord descends to the clouds.
The Lord in heaven opens the seals.
The wrath of the lamb is unleashed.
The Lamb appears on mt Zion.
The wrath of the devil is unleashed.
The Son of man appears in sky on a cloud.
The wrath of God is unleashed.
The Christ rules from His earthly Kingdom.
The faithful IN Christ are with the Lord wherever He is.
There is War between holy & demonic angels.
The unfaithful are Judged and sentenced.
The Faithful are Judged and sentenced.
The demons are removed from the earth forever.
Fallen man is removed from the earth forever and Forgotten.
The barrier between Heaven and earth is opened.
The Heaven and whole earth becomes Gods Kingdom.
The True and Faithful exist forever WITH their Lord God Almighty.

Every single individual is ACCOUNTED…(man and angels ) and forever with or forever without the Lord God.

 

[rwb]

Was preaching the gospel to all peoples no matter of race get out on hold when the nation of Israel came?

Sorry, I'm not sure of what you're asking?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are repeating yourself.

We all are doing that, including you. I think I will stop doing that at this point and not waste any more time on you.

I told you earlier that when you claim that my arguments are nonsense, I will interpret that as your inability to defend your position or refute my argument.

I could not care less how you interpret that. I have backed up my view with scripture many times extensively, so if you want to think I can't defend my position despite the fact that I do it more thoroughly and extensively than anyone on this forum besides WPM, then so be it.

 

[Taken]

I agree, logic doesn’t play a role when it comes to whether a person believes in God or not, that’s why the term elect is sometimes used. I suppose a person who believes in free will would conclude that a person must use logic to see that it’s better to believe in Jesus than not to believe. People should be able to look at creation and come to a logical conclusion that there is a God and thus be without excuse but to believe in the God of the Bible, a person must be one of the elect.

However, Amill, Premill, Preterist, and others can all be elect and have faith but come to different understandings. There probably aren’t two people on the planet that completely agree on every single verse. I think we are all incorrect somewhere but if a true Christian knew where they were incorrect they would abandon what is incorrect and change their view.

So, since Premill is convinced they are correct, Amill is convinced they are correct, and so on, I use my mind to logically determine which interpretation is correct, I can’t simply believe another person’s interpretation, I have to compare scripture with scripture and pray for God to give my mind the wisdom. Of course I think the Bible is without errors but our methods of interpreting the Bible have to be scrutinized and certain methods have to be eliminated when they allow contradictions to occur. Logic plays a significant role in this process.

Rapture is specific in meaning and timing…regarding those…IN Christ.

1st Resurrection is specific in meaning and timing….regarding those IN Belief…but NOT IN Christ…

2nd Resurrection is specific in meaning and timing….regarding those IN un-belief.

Every human shall be raised UP…however the WHEN is not all at the same time.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[IndianaRob]

Sorry, I'm not sure of what you're asking?

I’m sure you dont know what I’m asking…. I don’t even know what I was asking lol. That was probably autocorrect on my phone.

If I remember correctly, I was saying the gospel was preached to Abraham before Israel existed.

That being the case, do you think the gospel was preached to the world pre-Israel and then it was put on pause when Israel came about.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope didn’t know…Don’t think like you.

Yeah, I noticed. Most pre-tribbers think that we will be caught up to not only avoid God's wrath, but also persecution. So, that's the reason for the label "rapture wimps" that he used. It refers to those who are afraid to stand up for Christ and be persecuted for their faith.

Men of all walks of life…have been persecuted BY OTHER MEN for centuries…

Glad you understand that.

The End of Days Tribulations are NOT about suffering at the Hands of men….

Many pre-tribbers believe that it's at least partly about that, though. I think most do.

* The End of Days Tribulation's and wrath IS suffering at the HAND of the Lamb of God…
Upon men who rejected believing IN HIM…

And what does scripture say about how many of them will survive His wrath? It says none will (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, etc.). Your doctrine contradicts that.

* the wrath of the devil….UPON men who rejected believing IN him.
* the wrath of God….UPON men who rejected believing IN Him…

You think yourself a tough guy and want to experience ANY of those SPIRITUAL Wraths….would you LIKE others to pray FFOR YOU…that YOU get what YOU want?

LOL. You are a very strange person. I know that no believers EVER experience God's wrath. That's not up for debate.

Sure they do.

LOL. Your strangeness continues. I'm talking about anyone posting in this thread. None posting here (except for the latecomer full preterist who came here by mistake because of not realizing what this thread was about) deny that the rapture will occur.

Already addressed that. It’s a similitude, not an exact replica…

What? You are just making scripture say what you want it to say by holding this view. That is clear. He didn't point out that the flood "destroyed them all" and that the fire that came down on Sodom "destroyed them all" for nothing. And He didn't say that heaven and earth will pass away at that point for nothing. He said heaven and earth will pass away and of that day no one knows the day or hour (Matt 24:35-36) and He proceeded to indicate that day would be the day He comes again and He compared it to Noah's day when the flood came "and destroyed them all". That matches up with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:6-7 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 about Him coming unexpectedly with the scope of the destruction that happens at that time being just like the scope of destruction of the flood in Noah's day. And we know the scope of that destruction was complete and no unbelievers escaped it. Likewise, as Paul said in 1 Thess 5:2-3, "they shall not escape" the wrath of Christ when He comes, either. None of them will, as 2 Peter 3:10-12 makes clear.

Men will ignore the last days signs….watching CNN, ESPN, partying, etc.
ALL were Killed, except those risen up above the earth.

Yes, and Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.". He said it will be just like that when He comes. All unbelievers on the earth will be killed just as occurred in Noah's day. You make His reference to the fact that the flood "destroyed them all" meaningless and not relevant to His second coming, but He didn't point that out for nothing.

Last trib…Some shall be saved DURING the Trib…Less you forget…Gods Promise to save His People ISRAEL…
Ultimately all mortal life shall END.

God promises to save all those who repent and put their trust in His Son regardless of what nation they are from.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Your doctrine contradicts this verse because you believe that God will show favoritism to the nation of Israel over all other nations. that contradicts God's character.

IN CONTEXT…and TIMELINE…a one liner fails.

The Lord descends to the clouds.
The Lord in heaven opens the seals.
The wrath of the lamb is unleashed.
The Lamb appears on mt Zion.
The wrath of the devil is unleashed.
The Son of man appears in sky on a cloud.
The wrath of God is unleashed.
The Christ rules from His earthly Kingdom.
The faithful IN Christ are with the Lord wherever He is.
There is War between holy & demonic angels.
The unfaithful are Judged and sentenced.
The Faithful are Judged and sentenced.
The demons are removed from the earth forever.
Fallen man is removed from the earth forever and Forgotten.
The barrier between Heaven and earth is opened.
The Heaven and whole earth becomes Gods Kingdom.
The True and Faithful exist forever WITH their Lord God Almighty.

Every single individual is ACCOUNTED…(man and angels ) and forever with or forever without the Lord God.

LOL. What a convoluted mess. Your approach to interpreting scripture is just ridiculous.

 

[Taken]

You say that the trib can be compared to what happened with the flood in Noah's day, right? Where in either Matthew 24, 2 Peter 3 or Luke 17, where the wrath that will occur at Christ's second coming is compared to the flood of Noah's day, does it indicate that anyone will get the opportunity to repent and believe in Christ during the wrath that occurs after Christ comes and we're caught up to Him? Show me specifically where you are seeing that.


Where do you see this taught in scripture? You said we can compare the wrath that occurs after the rapture to what happened with the flood in Noah's day, right? I'm pretty sure you indicated that. If so, how many people left out of the ark in Noah's day repented and were saved? Exactly none, right? So, what is your basis for thinking that any unbelievers who are left on the earth, when Jesus comes and the rapture occurs, will be converted at that point? Show me exactly where you are seeing that described in scripture. If you want to be taken seriously, then you will show the scripture that backs up your claims. If you don't, then you will continue to not do that. It's up to you.

What occurred during the flood gave ZERO opportunity for men ON Earth to say…oops…guess I’d better confess belief…

NONE left on earth……BELIEVED!

During the next Trib from Heaven…some will believe…but made no Confession of Belief..
Some…Particularly ISRAEL who believes in God….will come to belief IN Christ Jesus…SINCE….they shall HAVE believers from their own TRIBES Teaching them….and they primarily shall THEN be killed

And so also some who are NOT Israel will come into belief.. and they primarily shall THEN be killed.

It’s a study…the Scriptures have been repeatedly posted under numerous such thread titles as this…

Is is not my responsibility to study FOR YOU… or to UNDERSTAND FOR YOU…
to know who, what, when, why, how SOME ARE “IN” Christ…indwelt with the Power of God…and NOT subject to suffer spiritual wrath…from God, from Christ, from satan.



Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rapture is specific in meaning and timing…regarding those…IN Christ.

1st Resurrection is specific in meaning and timing….regarding those IN Belief…but NOT IN Christ…

2nd Resurrection is specific in meaning and timing….regarding those IN un-belief.

Every human shall be raised UP…however the WHEN is not all at the same time.

Glory to God,
Taken

LOL. Such unbiblical nonsense. In belief, but not in Christ? LOL. Do you think Jesus Himself would describe people that way? Not a chance.

Matthew 12:30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Everyone is either with Christ or against Christ. So, everyone is either in Christ or in unbelief. No one is "in belief, but not in Christ". You make things up to make scripture say what you want it to say. As is common for pre-tribbers, as seen repeatedly on this forum.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What occurred during the floor gave ZERO opportunity for men ON Earth to say…oops…guess I’d better confess belief…

NONE left on earth……BELIEVED!

During the next Trib from Heaven…some will believe…but made no Confession of Belief..
Some…Particularly ISRAEL who believes in God….will come to belief IN Christ Jesus…SINCE….they shall HAVE believers from their own TRIBES Teaching them….and they primarily shall THEN be killed

And so also some who are NOT Israel will come into belief.. and they primarily shall THEN be killed.

It’s a study…the Scriptures have been repeatedly posted under numerous such thread titles as this…

Is is not my responsibility to study FOR YOU… or to UNDERSTAND FOR YOU…
to know who, what, when, why, how SOME ARE “IN” Christ…indwelt with the Power of God…and NOT subject to suffer spiritual wrath…from God, from Christ, from satan.

You make a mockery of what Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-39 and Luke 17:26-37. In your false doctrine you say that He pointed out that the flood "destroyed them all" and the fire that came down on Sodom "destroyed them all" for no reason and had no relevance to the comparisons He was making between Noah's day and the day He will come again and between Lot's day and the day He will come again.

 

[Taken]

The Faithful are Judged and sentenced.It refers to those who are afraid to stand up for Christ and be persecuted for their faith.

Men have been and shall be persecuted BY OTHER MEN for their faith…DUH!

Your implication is GOD Himself wants to “Persecute” men for their faith IN Him…

What an asinine view.

And what does scripture say about how many of them will survive His wrath?

You imply ALL are subject to HIS WRATH..
(And should LIKE IT! LOL)

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It says none will (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, etc.). Your doctrine contradicts that.

Scripture has a TIME LINE…Gods Time Line..
Knowing, Understanding Gods Time Line…does not contradict Scripture, rather it puts Scripture in perspective.

LOL. You are a very strange person.

Thank you … It was God Himself that MADE me peculiar UNTO Himself.

Your strangeness continues. I'm talking about anyone posting in this thread. None posting here (except for the latecomer full preterist who came here by mistake because of not realizing what this thread was about) deny that the rapture will occur.

Your speech is vague…Don’t care what you think about others…

Do you believe in the Rapture?
IF Yes…WHO exactly does the Rapture apply to?

He didn't point out that the flood "destroyed them all"

Eight were saved during the flood…all others died.

And He didn't say that heaven and earth will pass away at that point for nothing.

So ? Neither did I say that.
The earth was DESTROYED in the flood…no one said “the earth was passed away in the flood” !

LOL. What a convoluted mess. Your approach to interpreting scripture is just ridiculous.

You carnal confusion is your problem, not mine.

 

[Freedm]

It tells me that you've been duped by the false teaching of full preterism.


Nonsense! That happens all the time. You show your own ignorance by believing this nonsense. Is there no such thing as deception in your world where people are deceived into believing things that aren't true after previously believing the things that are true? Hello? You're not living in reality.


I have no interest in discussing full preterism. It's a shameful doctrine that deserves nothing but scorn.

Great chatting with you man! See you on the flip side!