The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Although Jesus is the light of the world and Christian converts benefit from his enlightenment, Jesus designated the Holy Spirit as the chief cause of enlightenment worldwide. Jesus calls him "the Spirit of truth." Even so, Satan's kingdom of darkness remains and Satan is still the prince of the power of the air. And Apostles such as Peter warn against a Devil that is free to roam and devour. 1 Peter 5:8


Maybe. But that is beside the point John is making in Revelation 20. He speaks about a time when Satan will not be able to deceive the nations so as to bring them against Israel.

Satan is not bound, he still roams around like a lion. Since he does, he is not bound.

Like most Premils with a BIG-devil and small-god theology, you refuse to read on 1 Peter 5:8 says: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isa 2 is the last days. Isa 65 is the NHNE. You are an expert at twisting the Word and applying it to this imaginary period.

Exactly. Premils take so many OT prophecies out of context and don't allow the NT to interpret those OT prophecies for them. They try to make everything in the OT about a literal thousand years after Christ returns. It's truly ridiculous.

Notice how he only referenced Isaiah 65:18-25 and not Isaiah 65:17. That says it all about his approach to interpreting scripture. He removes the verses that don't support his doctrine. Any honest person will acknowledge that Isaiah 65:18-25 describes the new heavens and new earth. Isaiah didn't reference the new heavens and new earth in verse 17 only to completely change the subject in the next verse. Ridiculous. Just like John in Revelation 21:1-4, Isaiah indicated there would be no weeping or crying in the new heavens and new earth. Isaiah 65:20 can't possibly be talking literally about people dying at that point since the previous verse says there would be no weeping and crying at that point and therefore no mourning over anyone's death at that point since "there shall be no more death" (Rev 21:4) when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in.

The cross does not seem satisfactory, efficacious and final enough for Premillennialists. They wrongly and strongly promote the full reinstitution of the redundant old covenant arrangement with its multiple sin offerings to atone for the sins of man in their future millennial temple (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21). They also advocate the restarting of the “meat offering” (Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “trespass offering” (Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “burnt offerings” (Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15, Zechariah 14:16-21), the “peace offerings” (Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12, Zechariah 14:16-21) and the “drink offerings” (Ezekiel 45:17, Zechariah 14:16-21).

This is despite the fact that the New Testament Scripture makes clear that Christ was the final sacrifice for sin (Romans 6:10, Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 28, 10:10, 12, 14 and 1 Peter 3:18) and that there are no more offerings for sin (Hebrews 9:26, 10:18, 26 and 1 John 3:5). The reality is, one can search the New Testament pages, and can search Revelation 20 from start to finish, and there is not the slightest instruction or allowance for such a religious sham in the presence of Jesus in the age to come. This will never happen, neither for atonement or memorial. This is a Premillennialism invention! Scripture describes the old covenant sacrificial system as “that which is done away” (2 Corinthians 3:11) and “that which is abolished” (2 Corinthians 3:13). It teaches: “the old testament … vail is done away in Christ" (2 Corinthians 3:14). Hebrews 10:9 confirms: “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:2 confirms they “ceased to be offered.”

Exactly. Premils who believe in future animal sacrifices and all that nonsense don't accept it when Jesus said "It is finished". They think He still has more work to do to save Israel (how can He do more than die for their sins!) and that His "once for all" sacrifice that made the old covenant sacrifices obsolete was not the final sacrifice, as if any more sacrifices would be needed. That is a complete insult to Christ's work on the cross! How can Premils not understand this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Like most Premils with a BIG-devil and small-god theology, you refuse to read on 1 Peter 5:8 says: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

This is a big reason why this Amil vs. Premil debate is important. If they don't undertsand that Jesus has power and authority over all things now and that Satan and his angels MUST back down and flee from us because of the Spirit of Christ living in us, then they are not understanding what is possible because of what Christ has done and because of the power of the gospel over the spiritual enemy.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Satan and his angels are powerless against the gospel! He is not the Big Bad Devil that some Christians have been fooled into thinking he is. He has no power over us because we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and he cannot deny the truth of the gospel, which "is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes". Satan no longer has the power of death that keeps people captive to the fear of death (Heb 2:14-15), so he has nothing to counter the power of God that manifests through the preaching of the gospel.

 

[Freedm]

They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine.

Pretribber here. Howdy!

So, you think a pretribber should be able to prove a rapture, a seven year trib and a third coming? I don't understand your statement here. None of those things exist, so why should you expect me to show you those scriptures? Did other pre-tribbers tell you those things exist? Cause sometimes we don't all agree on stuff, so I suppose that's possible, but I can't show you those scriptures, so I guess I'm guilty as charged.

 

[Freedm]

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming [or parousia], and of the end [or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation] of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

So, this is interesting. My Bible doesn't say "end of the world". It says "end of the age". What translation are you using?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pretribber here. Howdy!

So, you think a pretribber should be able to prove a rapture, a seven year trib and a third coming? I don't understand your statement here. None of those things exist, so why should you expect me to show you those scriptures? Did other pre-tribbers tell you those things exist? Cause sometimes we don't all agree on stuff, so I suppose that's possible, but I can't show you those scriptures, so I guess I'm guilty as charged.

Yes, many pretribbers believe that the rapture will occur, followed by a seven year period of tribulation followed by a third coming of Christ. The rapture itself is a "coming of the Lord" as Paul indicates in 1 Thess 4:15, so pretribbers believe in a future second and third coming of Christ from heaven.

If that is not what you believe, then please explain what you believe as it relates to the timing of the rapture that you believe will happen pretrib, what the tribulation entails, and how long you think the tribulation will last.

 

[Freedm]

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord.

Hey man! Glad to see you mentioned this part about heaven and earth. It's my favourite part of pre-trib-ism. You know why? Cause it turns out, that "heaven and earth" have already passed away. Betcha didn't know that! And yes, I'm being serious.

The heaven and earth in this prophesy, is a reference to the temple (proof below). True story. The outer temple represented earth and the sea, and the inner temple heaven, with the holy of holies, of course, the throne room of God. The entire temple structure was built to be a connection between heaven and earth. That was literally the point of it, to be a meeting place between God and man, and so that's why it was designed the way it was, and that's why it was called "heaven and earth" because this was the place where heaven and earth came together, to meet.

I know most Christians today have no clue about this, and therefore assume that it refers to the earth we walk on, and the heaven God lives in, but ignorance is no excuse. I'm telling you now, that this is a fact. Heaven and earth refers to the temple structure. See how Josephus describes it in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3, Chapter 7:

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire.

Now the vestment of the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest’s shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it? (ANT 3.7)

This old "heaven and earth" was destroyed, as the old covenant was destroyed, and in the new covenant a new connection between" heaven and earth" was made and that is the life of Jesus that lives in us. This is why we no longer need the old heaven and earth. We now have a direct connection to God. We are now the new temple.

 

[Freedm]

Yes, many pretribbers believe that the rapture will occur, followed by a seven year period of tribulation followed by a third coming of Christ. The rapture itself is a "coming of the Lord" as Paul indicates in 1 Thess 4:15, so pretribbers believe in a future second and third coming of Christ from heaven.

If that is not what you believe, then please explain what you believe as it relates to the timing of the rapture that you believe will happen pretrib, what the tribulation entails, and how long you think the tribulation will last.

Ah, interesting. Yes, myself, I don't believe in a rapture at all. I don't see the evidence for it.

The tribulation, on the other hand, has already passed, and that occurred from 66 AD to 70 AD. Exactly 3.5 years. It was the most terrible time in history. Glad we missed it. All the signs and wonders, the famine, the pestilences, the earthquake, the horror. Even the hiding in caves. It all happened during that time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, this is interesting. My Bible doesn't say "end of the world". It says "end of the age". What translation are you using?

That's from the King James Version. The Greek word is "aion" and I think "age" is a better translation of the word. But, Jesus taught that the current age is the temporal age during which people get married and they die and the age to come is an eternal age that will arrive upon the resurrection of the dead during which people will not get married or die anymore.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Note that Jesus was not saying that only those who are resurrected from the dead will be considered "worthy of taking part in the age to come". That would not make any sense, right? What about those who are alive when He comes and the dead are resurrected? They would be out of luck? No, of course not. Jesus is contrasting the temporal age we live in now before the day when the dead are resurrected to the eternal age to come that will be ushered in when the dead are resurrected at Christ's return at the end of the age.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey man! Glad to see you mentioned this part about heaven and earth. It's my favourite part of pre-trib-ism. You know why? Cause it turns out, that "heaven and earth" have already passed away. Betcha didn't know that! And yes, I'm being serious.

The heaven and earth in this prophesy, is a reference to the temple (proof below). True story. The outer temple represented earth and the sea, and the inner temple heaven, with the holy of holies, of course, the throne room of God. The entire temple structure was built to be a connection between heaven and earth. That was literally the point of it, to be a meeting place between God and man, and so that's why it was designed the way it was, and that's why it was called "heaven and earth" because this was the place where heaven and earth came together, to meet.

I know most Christians today have no clue about this, and therefore assume that it refers to the earth we walk on, and the heaven God lives in, but ignorance is no excuse. I'm telling you now, that this is a fact. Heaven and earth refers to the temple structure. See how Josephus describes it in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3, Chapter 7:

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire.

Now the vestment of the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest’s shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it? (ANT 3.7)

This old "heaven and earth" was destroyed, as the old covenant was destroyed, and in the new covenant a new connection between" heaven and earth" was made and that is the life of Jesus that lives in us. This is why we no longer need the old heaven and earth. We now have a direct connection to God. We are now the new temple.

This is all complete nonsense. Jesus was referring to the literal heaven and earth passing away just as Peter did in 2 Peter 3:7;10-12. Peter compared the future day when heaven and earth will pass away to what happened in the flood (2 Peter 3:6-7) just as Jesus did (Matt 24:35-39). They were not comparing a literal, physical event to a figurative event, they were comparing one physical, global event to another.

Your version of pretrib seems more like full preterism. Do you believe that Jesus will come visibly and bodily in the future?

 

[Freedm]

That's from the King James Version. The Greek word is "aion" and I think "age" is a better translation of the word. But, Jesus taught that the current age is the temporal age during which people get married and they die and the age to come is an eternal age that will arrive upon the resurrection of the dead during which people will not get married or die anymore.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Note that Jesus was not saying that only those who are resurrected from the dead will be considered "worthy of taking part in the age to come". That would not make any sense, right? What about those who are alive when He comes and the dead are resurrected? They would be out of luck? No, of course not. Jesus is contrasting the temporal age we live in now before the day when the dead are resurrected to the eternal age to come that will be ushered in when the dead are resurrected at Christ's return at the end of the age.

I think that still refers only to those who have risen from the dead, because he says they can no longer die. I get what you're saying, but there's no reason that can't refer to our current age, because those who have been resurrected from the dead are living in our current age, together with those who have not yet been resurrected. So he's specifically saying, people who meet these two criteria, will not marry. You and I only meet one of those criteria.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah, interesting. Yes, myself, I don't believe in a rapture at all. I don't see the evidence for it.

Oh, really? The word "rapture" refers to the church being caught up to meet Christ. Is the following passage in your Bible?

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

How do you interpret this passage and how is being caught up to meet Christ in the air not a description of a rapture? How do you define the word "rapture"?

 

[Freedm]

This is all complete nonsense. Jesus was referring to the literal heaven and earth passing away just as Peter did in 2 Peter 3:7;10-12. Peter compared the future day when heaven and earth will pass away to what happened in the flood (2 Peter 3:6-7) just as Jesus did (Matt 24:35-39). They were not comparing a literal, physical event to a figurative event, they were comparing one physical, global event to another.

Your version of pretrib seems more like full preterism. Do you believe that Jesus will come visibly and bodily in the future?

Ah, but the flood did happen. It was a flood of Roman soldiers that overcame the city. You can't say it's nonsense, just because it doesn't align with your vision for the future. You have to have a better reason than that. And, besides, it is an established fact, that the temple was built to represent "heaven and earth". And that temple was destroyed, and replaced by a new temple. So, if you think Jesus was talking about something else, the onus is on you to prove it, because our history has clearly already fulfilled his prophecy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think that still refers only to those who have risen from the dead, because he says they can no longer die.

Canl those who are alive and remain until Christ returns ever die? No. So, it doesn't have to only refer to those who are resurrected.

I get what you're saying, but there's no reason that can't refer to our current age, because those who have been resurrected from the dead are living in our current age, together with those who have not yet been resurrected. So he's specifically saying, people who meet these two criteria, will not marry. You and I only meet one of those criteria.

I don't know what you're talking about. Jesus contrasted this age with the age to come. So, in your view, what is the difference between "this age" and "the age to come"? When does "this age" occur and when does "the age to come" occur?

 

[Freedm]

Oh, really? The word "rapture" refers to the church being caught up to meet Christ. Is the following passage in your Bible?

1 Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

How do you interpret this passage and how is being caught up to meet Christ in the air not a description of a rapture? How do you define the word "rapture"?

"Them in the clouds" refers to those who have received their glory. It's symbolic language. They're not actually in the sky, in the clouds. I mean, really, would it have to be cloudy over the entire earth that day? That's weird. I believe we had a similar discussion in another thread.

So, anyway, this is not referring to people flying up into the sky. It's referring to people receiving their glory, the same way those who went before, have received theirs (that's why they're described as being "in the clouds"). Those people are likely the souls under the altar, which are those who died before Jesus came. The old testament saints. They preceded us in their glory of resurrection, as Paul said they would.

 

[Freedm]

Canl those who are alive and remain until Christ returns ever die? No. So, it doesn't have to only refer to those who are resurrected.


I don't know what you're talking about. Jesus contrasted this age with the age to come. So, in your view, what is the difference between "this age" and "the age to come"? When does "this age" occur and when does "the age to come" occur?

We are currently living in "the age to come" which is the age of life. The age during which Jesus and the disciples lived, when they spoke of these things, was the current age, the age of death. During that age, people went from life to death. Now, we go from life, to life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah, but the flood did happen. It was a flood of Roman soldiers that overcame the city. You can't say it's nonsense, just because it doesn't align with your vision for the future. You have to have a better reason than that. And, besides, it is an established fact, that the temple was built to represent "heaven and earth". And that temple was destroyed, and replaced by a new temple. So, if you think Jesus was talking about something else, the onus is on you to prove it, because our history has clearly already fulfilled his prophecy.

Goodness gracious, you are trying to make scripture say whatever you want it to say. This is ridiculous.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

You are trying to tell me that 2 Peter 3:6 is talking about a flood of Roman armies overcoming the city of Jerusalem? That's ridiculous. He was clearly comparing the coming of Christ with the flood in Noah's day and saying that at the coming of Christ "the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire". It's no different than what Jesus said Himself here:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Them in the clouds" refers to those who have received their glory. It's symbolic language. They're not actually in the sky, in the clouds. I mean, really, would it have to be cloudy over the entire earth that day? That's weird. I believe we had a similar discussion in another thread.

I'm not saying the clouds are referring to literal clouds, but "in the air" means in the earth's atmosphere away from the surface of the earth. It says "caught UP to meet Christ in the air". You do believe He went UP into the air (the sky) when He ascended to heaven, don't you? As it indicates in Acts 1:9-10? They literally watched Him go up (ascend) into the air/sky before they could no longer see Him. He will return in like manner (Acts 1:11) which means He will be seen after He descends from heaven.

So, anyway, this is not referring to people flying up into the sky.

Yes, it most certainly is. That is what "the air" refers to. You are mistaken.

In 1 Thess 4:17 "the air" is translated from the Greek word "aēr" and this is what that word means:

It's referring to people receiving their glory, the same way those who went before, have received theirs (that's why they're described as being "in the clouds"). Those people are likely the souls under the altar, which are those who died before Jesus came. The old testament saints. They preceded us in their glory of resurrection, as Paul said they would.

I totally disagree. Are you a full preterist then? Do you believe that Jesus will come visibly and bodily in the future and we will see Him as He is in all His glory (1 John 3:2)?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are currently living in "the age to come" which is the age of life. The age during which Jesus and the disciples lived, when they spoke of these things, was the current age, the age of death. During that age, people went from life to death. Now, we go from life, to life.

Nonsense! Are you denying the bodily resurrection of the dead unto bodily immortality that will occur at the last trumpet when Jesus comes again (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54)? The eternal age to come will not be ushered in until then! At that point death will be "swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54) but that has not yet occurred!

 

[MA2444]

Where is a millennium mentioned in Isaiah or Ezekiel? Please quote the actual wording. Make sure you do not quote a "last days" passage or a "new heavens and a new earth" passage like most Premillennialist do. They do that because they do not have any proof-passages to support their faulty belief of Revelation 20.

So what your saying is that no matter what scripture it is you have already rejected it with your tone. So go read the books for yourself and perhaps you can find it.