The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

More noise, more avoidance and more lies. Address the biblical evidence please.

I did. I was just priming you like a pump to start crying avoidance. I have answered your two posts.

When will answer my previous post to your long cut and paste posts that you falsely denied I answered.

 

[WPM]

Yeah I do but it’s already happened. I’m not waiting for the kingdom to come, I’m not waiting for heavenly Jerusalem to descend from the clouds, I live in heavenly Jerusalem right now. I’m not waiting live in the 1000 year reign, I’m living it now.

I’m not like Jews in Christs day, I’m not looking for a physical kingdom.

You believe that the literal physical return of Christ and the literal physical resurrection and judgment of man has already happened?

What are you waiting on? What happens to this fallen creation? Is it going to continue forever?

 

[Keraz]

LOL. Here's Keraz to the rescue to set everyone striaght with his nonsense. How lucky are we.

If only you and others were capable of seeing the truths of Prophecy. But wrong beliefs have trapped you and understanding is far from you.

a chronological generation represents the time during which someone grows up and has their own kids which then starts a new generation. So, a generation in that sense is defined to be 30 to 40 years. And that is one of the definitions you will find in a dictionary. Wat you will not find in a dictionary is a definition of the word generation that describes it as the human life span.

I'll try again.
How can Jesus have meant only a family generation? As we do understand it.
But in the context of His Prophecy, that understanding doesn't fit, it just makes a confusion.

What does make sense, is how Jesus is referring to all the population alive when the fig tree [and all the trees] become prosperous and fruitful. Excepting Judah, who bears no fruit. [of the holy Spirit]
This fits our situation today.

 

[Keraz]

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from here, since I'm thinking you are applying some of Zechariah 14 post the 2nd coming as I am as well. So, does this mean the ones meant in Zechariah 14:16-19 are the righteous faithful Christian peoples as well? You take those verses to be meaning after Christ bodily returns, correct? We have to keep in mind that not everyone can be the righteous faithful Christian peoples during the millennium, if after the millennium satan deceives many of them and that God then devours them with fire out of heaven.

Only those who have proved their faith will enter the Millennium. ALL the rest of mankind will be dead and after the Millennium, they will stand before God to receive their final verdict.

Some in the Millennium, may fall short of King Jesus requirements and be punished as Zech 14:17 describes.

You should note well; that only after the thousand years is over, will Satan again be able to deceive people. Rev 20:7-8
THEN, many will follow him, to their Eternal loss.

 

[The Light]

LOL. Your doctrine is so incredibly weak. There is no rapture described or implied in Revelation 5. That is complete nonsense.

The Church is in heaven in Rev 5. We know..........well er ahhh some of us know that 24 elders have crowns that prove that Jesus has come. I don't expect you to see anything beyond what your doctrine teaches you...........so the usual waste of time.

These verses have all unbelievers being killed when Christ returns. How does that support your view? You think those who are left survive into a time of tribulation. LOL. In no way, shape or form do these verses indicate such a thing. Just all unbelievers left out of the ark were killed in the flood and all unbelievers left in Sodom were killed, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". No unbelievers will survive His coming to live through an imaginary post "coming of the Son of man" tribulation period.

He comes at the sixth seal immediately after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins.

All verses in the book support Amil. Do you have anything but nonsensical gibberish to share or not? Apparently not. The rapture is referenced in both Revelation 11:11-12 and Revelation 14:14-16.

Wow. Rev 11 is talking about the two witnesses that are killed and come back to life and are caught up. This is not the Church. You got to do better than that.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

These verses are talking about the rapture at the 6th seal of the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. They sing the song of Moses.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 16
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Do you want to understand the timing of Revelation 20:6? Just look at Revelation 1:5-6.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Whose resurrection was the first resurrection? Christ (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). When does Jesus reign? He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6). John said He IS "the prince of the kings of the earth". When were believers first made priests of God and of Christ? Long ago already. John said Jesus "HATH MADE us kings and priests unto God and his Father". Peter wrote that those in the church ARE a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). What makes it so that the second death has no power over someone? A bodily resurrection? No. Being "washed from our sins in his own blood" is how we avoid the wages of sin, which is the second death. So, Revelation 1:5-6 shows that Revelation 20:6 should be understood in the present tense. That supports Amil. And you foolishly claim that not one verse in the book supports Amil out of ignorance.

I saw nothing amil in your explanation. What I did see is those kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5.

Total nonsense. All you are able to do is misrepresent Amil. You don't have a clue of what we believe. How can you argue against something of which you have no understanding? That isn't possible.

You say the rapture is at the end of wrath. Then you post two scriptures. The first is the two witnesses being raptured. The second is the rapture at the sixth seal which is the Jews. We get another view in Daniel 12 when MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Who said I don't understand those things? Good grief, will you stop making a fool of yourself by constantly making assumptions? Get the facts before you say things of which you know nothing about. The difference in our views of the sixth seal, as I've told you several times now (hello, wake up!) is that I believe the wrath of the Lamb comes down right then and there (it says "the great day of His wrath has come!") and you think it doesn't come until a year later or lats for a whole year which is complete nonsense.

Of course wrath comes after Jesus comes at the 6th seal. It is the 7th seal Day of the Lord and it lasts for 1 year. Armageddon does not occur until the end of that year.

 

[WPM]

Noah was shut in the ark, after the ark was loaded on the first day. We know the animals were loaded on the first day because they were loaded on the self same day.

Genesis 7
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.


Moses? Noah.

The animal were not gathered in a week, as Noah was told to enter the ark on the 1st day. And we know Noah, his family and all the animals loaded in one day because the Word tells us they were all loaded on the self same day.

Genesis 7
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.



Noah entered the ark on day one as God had commanded Him.

Genesis 7
And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Great. Pull some truthful facts out scripture and pretend that this covers your error of the flood coming the day Noah entered the ark. Noah entered the ark on day one as commanded. He was shut in the ark on the 1st day.

They were eating and drinking UNTIL THE DAY NOAH ENTERED THE ARK...................NOT THE DAY THE FLOOD CAME.

Not so! Read what it says, not what you have been taught:

Genesis 7:11-13: "the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark."

Not only are you foisting something upon the text in Genesis that it does not say, you refuse to acknowledge the words of Jesus Christ on this matter that reinforce what happened. Do you realize that the NT is the fuller revelation? Do you not see that Christ had a full knowledge of what occurred? You have been stepping around His words throughout the course of this thread.

What is more, what has 7 days in Noah's day to do with 7 years in your so-called future tribulation? Do you think Noah's world went through a 7-day great tribulation before the flood came?

Whatever angle you look at it, your reasoning doesn't add up here. You're going to have to come clean. You're going to have to put your cards on the table. What are you trying to say? Why will you not address the explicit and irrefutable words of Jesus on this subject.

 

[WPM]

Only those who have proved their faith will enter the Millennium. ALL the rest of mankind will be dead and after the Millennium, they will stand before God to receive their final verdict.

Some may fall short of King Jesus requirements and be punished as Zech 14:17 describes.

You should note well; that only after the thousand years is over, will Satan again be able to deceive people. Rev 20:7-8
THEN, many will follow him, to their Eternal loss.

Where does it say that "only those who have proved their faith will enter the Millennium"?

 

[WPM]

The Church is in heaven in Rev 5. We know..........well er ahhh some of us know that 24 elders have crowns that prove that Jesus has come. I don't expect you to see anything beyond what your doctrine teaches you...........so the usual waste of time.

He comes at the sixth seal immediately after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins.


Wow. Rev 11 is talking about the two witnesses that are killed and come back to life and are caught up. This is not the Church. You got to do better than that.

Revelation 11
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

These verses are talking about the rapture at the 6th seal of the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. They sing the song of Moses.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 16
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


I saw nothing amil in your explanation. What I did see is those kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5.



You say the rapture is at the end of wrath. Then you post two scriptures. The first is the two witnesses being raptured. The second is the rapture at the sixth seal which is the Jews. We get another view in Daniel 12 when MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Of course wrath comes after Jesus comes at the 6th seal. It is the 7th seal Day of the Lord and it lasts for 1 year. Armageddon does not occur until the end of that year.

Pretrib argues that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth. This is one of their main arguments. Yet they are adamant that the 24 Elders represent the whole Church in heaven. This is one of their fundamental beliefs.

But how can they so easily spiritualize the 24 Elders and insist on them being “the Church” but rubbish the idea that the Church is called “saints,” “them which are saved,” the “redeemed,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants,” those “in / with white robes,” “kings and priests,” “souls,” “fellowservants,” “woman,” “the temple,” “the dead which die in the Lord,” “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark,” “he/him that overcometh,” “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments,” “my people,” “his people,” “much people,” “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,” “the bride,” “the Lamb's wife,” “they that do/keep God’s commandments,” “the armies which were in heaven” and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life”?

Talk about twisting Scripture! This is totally ridiculous!

 

[IndianaRob]

You believe that the literal physical return of Christ and the literal physical resurrection and judgment of man has already happened?

What are you waiting on? What happens to this fallen creation? Is it going to continue forever?

I’m not waiting on anything and I don’t see an end in the Bible.

Ecclesiastes seems to back that idea up. One generation passes and another comes and the earth goes on forever.

 

[WPM]

I’m not waiting on anything and I don’t see an end in the Bible.

Ecclesiastes seems to back that idea up. One generation passes and another comes and the earth goes on forever.

So, mortals will just keep being born and dying? What about Satan his demons?

 

[IndianaRob]

So, mortals will just keep being born and dying? What about Satan his demons?

If one generation passes and mother takes its place the abideth forever then yes people will just keep being born and Satan is not what you think it is.

Doesn’t the Bible say the children of Israel innumerable like the stars in the sky and the sands of the sea.

 

[WPM]

If one generation passes and mother takes its place the abideth forever then yes people will just keep being born and Satan is not what you think it is.

Doesn’t the Bible say the children of Israel innumerable like the stars in the sky and the sands of the sea.

Why do you call Satan "it"? What do i think Satan is?

 

[The Light]

Not so! Read what it says, not what you have been taught:

Genesis 7:11-13: "the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark."

Nice attempt to mislead Christians who are seeking the truth. Here's what you intentionally left out.

Genesis 7
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Not only are you foisting something upon the text in Genesis that it does not say, you refuse to acknowledge the words of Jesus Christ on this matter that reinforce what happened. Do you realize that the NT is the fuller revelation? Do you not see that Christ had a full knowledge of what occurred? You have been stepping around His words throughout the course of this thread.

You have been intentionally leaving off part of the verse in an attempt to mislead Christians. This is the second time. I realize why you cannot post the whole verse as it destroys your feeble doctrine.

What is more, what has 7 days in Noah's day to do with 7 years in your so-called future tribulation?

You are confused. There is not a 7 year tribulation. You don't know if you are coming or going.

Do you think Noah's world went through a 7-day great tribulation before the flood came?

No. Your claims of a 7-year tribulation are in error.

Whatever angle you look at it, your reasoning doesn't add up here. You're going to have to come clean. You're going to have to put your cards on the table. What are you trying to say? Why will you not address the explicit and irrefutable words of Jesus on this subject.

I did address the Words of Christ. The fact you are in denial is nothing new.

 

[WPM]

You are confused. There is not a 7 year tribulation. You don't know if you are coming or going.


No. Your claims of a 7-year tribulation are in error.

I did address the Words of Christ. The fact you are in denial is nothing new.

So, what has 6 or 7 days to do with anything? Why are you so obsessed at pushing this?

 

[WPM]

Nice attempt to mislead Christians who are seeking the truth. Here's what you intentionally left out.

Genesis 7
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Why do you say that when you know it is not true? Read what I wrote yesterday, and read what you (once again) avoided:

The absurdity of Pretrib logic

You have not proven that the rapture could not - possibly, might, - happen before the 7 year 70th week begins. Not true! Daniel 9 is long-fulfilled. You cannot even grasp the timing or understand the detail of the prophecy. Daniel 9:24 predicts, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[The Light]

Pretrib argues that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth.

I have never seen anyone claim that as proof. But it certainly is something that is undeniable even though you have tried to deny it.

This is one of their main arguments. Yet they are adamant that the 24 Elders represent the whole Church in heaven.

Never said that one time. You should pay more attention. The 24 elders with crowns are proof that Jesus has returned. The kings and priest in Rev 5 are proof that the Church is in heaven.

This is one of their fundamental beliefs.

But how can they so easily spiritualize the 24 Elders and insist on them being “the Church” but rubbish the idea that the Church is called “saints,” “them which are saved,” the “redeemed,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants,” those “in / with white robes,” “kings and priests,” “souls,” “fellowservants,” “woman,” “the temple,” “the dead which die in the Lord,” “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark,” “he/him that overcometh,” “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments,” “my people,” “his people,” “much people,” “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,” “the bride,” “the Lamb's wife,” “they that do/keep God’s commandments,” “the armies which were in heaven” and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life”?

Talk about twisting Scripture! This is totally ridiculous!

You are off in your land of confusion. The 24 elders do not represent the Church. You don't pay much attention. You are too busy trying to protect your fallen doctrine to discover what the truth is.

 

[The Light]

So, what has 6 or 7 days to do with anything? Why are you so obsessed at pushing this?I

I'm dealing with the facts. In the days of Noah, Noah is shut in the ark 6 days before the flood. In the days of Lot, the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. Two raptures. One like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot.

 

[WPM]

I'm dealing with the facts. In the days of Noah, Noah is shut in the ark 6 days before the flood. In the days of Lot, the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. Two raptures. One like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot.

This has been ably and repeatedly refuted.

This typifies how Pretrib is wrongly formulated from the sacred text! It is not what the Bible teaches but what can be manipulated from forced theories.

2+2=4, not 22. The explicit evidence disproves your teaching.

 

[The Light]

Why do you say that when you know it is not true? Read what I wrote yesterday, and read what you (once again) avoided:

The absurdity of Pretrib logic

You have not proven that the rapture could not - possibly, might, - happen before the 7 year 70th week begins. Not true! Daniel 9 is long-fulfilled. You cannot even grasp the timing or understand the detail of the prophecy. Daniel 9:24 predicts, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...

www.christianityboard.com

I understand that it is hard to keep up with so many posts going back and forth.

As I said I don't avoid any post or run from anyone, because I seek the truth.

If I don't answer it's because I am too busy, not because I have avoided anything you might present. You are still operating on information that was passed around by those who think they have replaced Israel, 30 years ago. It is easy enough to disprove.

You were answered in post #2588

 

[WPM]

You were answered in post #2588

You have got to be joking. I was avoided in post #2588. You obviously have no rebuttal.