The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

Yes the body we have now will die and we will die in our sins along with it if we haven’t accepted Christ.

If we accept Christ and our soul has been resurrected from death to eternal life then we get the heavenly body to experience heaven.

When?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you would follow the context you would see that there are two resurrections In this passage - one spiritual and the other physical. You do not seem to grasp that.

That is obvious to any unbiased reader of those passages. John 5:24-25 says "the hour is coming, and now is" and John 5:28-29 only says "the hour is coming". Clearly, the two passages have different contexts with John 5:24-25 being Jesus talking about something that was already a reality when Jesus was speaking and John 5:28-29 being Jesus talking only of a future event and not something that was happening at the time He was speaking.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes the body we have now will die and we will die in our sins along with it if we haven’t accepted Christ.

If we accept Christ and our soul has been resurrected from death to eternal life then we get the heavenly body to experience heaven.

And, according to Paul in 1 Cor 15:50-54, that will happen when the last trumpet sounds. We will ALL be changed to have immortal bodies at the same time at that point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They went to everlasting shame and contempt whatever that might be I don’t know.

Whatever that might be? Really? As if there isn't any other scripture which might tell us what happens to unbelievers who are raised from the dead?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[IndianaRob]

When?

If your asking when we get our new bodies it’s when we leave this world.

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

[IndianaRob]

If you would follow the context you would see that there are two resurrections In this passage - one spiritual and the other physical. You do not seem to grasp that.

Which one is spiritual and which one physical?

 

[IndianaRob]

And, according to Paul in 1 Cor 15:50-54, that will happen when the last trumpet sounds. We will ALL be changed to have immortal bodies at the same time at that point.

When you leave this world are you going to heaven unclothed or clothed in the glorified body?

 

[IndianaRob]

Whatever that might be? Really? As if there isn't any other scripture which might tell us what happens to unbelievers who are raised from the dead?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes I’m aware of all the verses about hell.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When you leave this world are you going to heaven unclothed or clothed in the glorified body?

My soul will go to heaven. John said he saw souls in heaven, not glorified bodies (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4). Paul said to be home in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8). Do you agree with Paul?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes I’m aware of all the verses about hell.

Those verses I referenced are about the lake of fire which even hell/hades itself will be cast into (Rev 20:14). So, why is it a mystery to you as to what will happen to those who are resurrected to shame and everlasting contempt? It's not a secret.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which one is spiritual and which one physical?

John 5:24-25 is spiritual and John 5:28-29 is referring to a bodily resurrection.

Compare these passages which both speak of a current reality:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

John 5:24-25 is talking about going from being spiritually dead in sins to being saved and spiritually alive in Christ just as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:4-6.

 

[IndianaRob]

My soul will go to heaven. John said he saw souls in heaven, not glorified bodies (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4). Paul said to be home in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8). Do you agree with Paul?

Revelation 6:9-11 calls them souls because they’re the Old Testament saints before the resurrection.

The alter was the cross which means the souls UNDER the alter are the souls in “the heart of the earth”, Abraham’s bosom.

Verse 11 is after the resurrection.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Yes I agree with Paul.

 

[IndianaRob]

Those verses I referenced are about the lake of fire which even hell/hades itself will be cast into (Rev 20:14). So, why is it a mystery to you as to what will happen to those who are resurrected to shame and everlasting contempt? It's not a secret.

Your concept of the second death and lake of fire are completely different from mine that’s why I didn’t elaborate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 6:9-11 calls them souls because they’re the Old Testament saints before the resurrection.

Before what resurrection? Christ's resurrection? Where are you getting that idea from?

The alter was the cross which means the souls UNDER the alter are the souls in “the heart of the earth”, Abraham’s bosom.

Where does it say the altar was the cross? You are trying to make scripture say what you want it to say. No, the souls John saw would be all of the dead in Christ, including the OT saints, who die up until the time of the fifth seal which is well after the resurrection of Christ.

Verse 11 is after the resurrection.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Yes I agree with Paul.

This is utter nonsense. Where do you get it from? Did anyone teach you this? I've never seen this nonsense before. What resurrection are you even talking about here? Where is a resurrection referenced there?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your concept of the second death and lake of fire are completely different from mine that’s why I didn’t elaborate.

You seem to have a doctrine all your own. How would you describe your overall beliefs? What label would you give it? Are you a full preterist? Do you know anyone who agrees with your end times doctrine?

 

[IndianaRob]

Before what resurrection? Christ's resurrection? Where are you getting that idea from?


Where does it say the altar was the cross? You are trying to make scripture say what you want it to say. No, the souls John saw would be all of the dead in Christ, including the OT saints, who die up until the time of the fifth seal which is well after the resurrection of Christ.


This is utter nonsense. Where do you get it from? Did anyone teach you this? I've never seen this nonsense before. What resurrection are you even talking about here? Where is a resurrection referenced there?

Ok so you tell me what the alter is.

 

[IndianaRob]

You seem to have a doctrine all your own. How would you describe your overall beliefs? What label would you give it? Are you a full preterist? Do you know anyone who agrees with your end times doctrine?

My overall beliefs are the resurrection of Christ was the second coming, the first resurrection started at the resurrection of Christ and is ongoing forever as far as I can tell, I don’t see an end in the Bible.

There is no label to give it. I believe every single word in the Bible exactly as it’s written. If I don’t understand something I leave it alone until the Lord shows me through the word.

I’m no kind of preterist, preterism is a heresy just like futurism. I can’t think of one belief I have that lines up with preterism other than preterist believe all is fulfilled with heavy emphasis on 70AD whereas I believe all was fulfilled at the cross and resurrection.

No I don’t know of any major organization or preacher that lines up anywhere close to what I believe.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Does the book of Revelation mention the Great Tribulation? If so, what chapter(s)? Knowing this will help me determine when the church is raptured.

The 4 horsemen kick it off.
Then according to Daniel it looks like 7 years in duration.
It is " Jacob's trouble " . ( Israel's trouble)
It has a distinct purpose as it plows up and prepares the Jews to be gathered in Rev 14

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok so you tell me what the alter is.

Exodus 29:12 Take some of the bull’s blood and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour out the rest of it at the base of the altar.

In OT times most of the blood of the animal sacrifice was put at the base of the altar. The souls John saw being under the altar symbolically represents that they shed their blood and sacrificed their lives for the cause of the word of God and their testimony.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My overall beliefs are the resurrection of Christ was the second coming, the first resurrection started at the resurrection of Christ and is ongoing forever as far as I can tell, I don’t see an end in the Bible.

There is no label to give it. I believe every single word in the Bible exactly as it’s written. If I don’t understand something I leave it alone until the Lord shows me through the word.

I’m no kind of preterist, preterism is a heresy just like futurism.

I don't see that your view is much different than full preterism as you apparently do not believe in a future glorious appearing of Jesus Christ.

I can’t think of one belief I have that lines up with preterism other than preterist believe all is fulfilled with heavy emphasis on 70AD whereas I believe all was fulfilled at the cross and resurrection.

No I don’t know of any major organization or preacher that lines up anywhere close to what I believe.

So, you're another lone wolf who has a doctrine all to yourself. There are several on this forum. You think God has revealed the truth only to you then. What makes you so special that God only reveals the truth of these things to you, of all people?