The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[The Light]

The voice is coming from heaven. I see that. And since the voice is coming from heaven, this suggests to me that the 144K are on the earth.

The fact that the 144,000 are redeemed FROM THE EARTH, should tell you that the 144,000 are in heaven. Additionally, they are the first fruits of a future harvest. Since they are first fruits you know they have been harvested.

 

[honeycomb]

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The second advent occurs at the end of the 7th seal.

The fact that the 144,000 are redeemed FROM THE EARTH, should tell you that the 144,000 are in heaven. Additionally, they are the first fruits of a future harvest. Since they are first fruits you know they have been harvested.

This is in the Millennium. Agree?
—————
Question: Where do you see a rapture?

 

[The Light]

Wasn't the Abomination of Desolation already set up? Wasn't the AOD the crucifixion of Jesus?

Absolutely not. The AOD is placed in the Temple

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

 

[honeycomb]

Absolutely not. The AOD is placed in the Temple

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The AOD is the desolator himself—Satan in his role as the Antichrist.

 

[The Light]

This is in the Millennium. Agree?

No. The millennium begins after the 2nd advent.

—————
Question: Where do you see a rapture?

The first rapture occurs before the seals are opened. Pre trib. 1 Thes 4:16-17. This is the rapture of the Church. It is like the days of Noah.

The second rapture occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. This rapture is post trib......WHICH IS PRE WRATH. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Like the days of Lot. We see this rapture in Rev 14

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

[The Light]

The AOD is the desolator himself—Satan in his role as the Antichrist.

I thought you said................ "Wasn't the AOD the crucifixion of Jesus?"

 

[honeycomb]

No. The millennium begins after the 2nd advent.

You are absolutely correct. The millennium begins after the second advent of Christ.

 

[honeycomb]

I thought you said................ "Wasn't the AOD the crucifixion of Jesus?"

That wasn’t me. That was @CadyandZoe , I believe.

 

[honeycomb]

I always thought that the rider on the white horse was Rome itself, perhaps represented by Titus. No?

The rider on that first white horse is none other than Satan (the AOD) pretending to be Jesus Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The fact that the 144,000 are redeemed FROM THE EARTH, should tell you that the 144,000 are in heaven. Additionally, they are the first fruits of a future harvest. Since they are first fruits you know they have been harvested.

I believe the word "earth" should be translated "land," referring to the land of Israel. And since they are standing on Mt. Zion, they are located on earth, in Jerusalem.

If my interpretation of Joel is correct, they are redeemed from the "land" because a call will go out to all of those living in Israel at the time, to come to Jerusalem to pray for the nation. Joel predicts that those who make the trip to Jerusalem to pray for the nation will be saved. Those who don't make the trip to Jerusalem will be burned by the army of fires.

But who knows. Maybe I am mistaken. :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

Absolutely not. The AOD is placed in the Temple

Daniel 11
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Wasn't Daniel 11:31 fulfilled during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes?

 

[CadyandZoe]

That wasn’t me. That was @CadyandZoe , I believe.

Yes, that was me. During the time of Jesus, the abomination that caused Jerusalem to be devastated was the crucifixion of Jesus. Didn't Jesus predict this in Matthew 25? Or am I mistaken?

 

[jeffweeder]

You are absolutely correct. The millennium begins after the second advent of Christ.

and what did Jesus have to say about that?
I can't find anything but the end of the world.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The rider on that first white horse is none other than Satan (the AOD) pretending to be Jesus Christ.

Hmm. Okay. It says that he is carrying a bow. What does the bow represent?
Thanks. :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

and what did Jesus have to say about that?
I can't find anything but the end of the world.

Doesn't Jesus rule the nations with a rod of iron?

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes, that was me. During the time of Jesus, the abomination that caused Jerusalem to be devastated was the crucifixion of Jesus. Didn't Jesus predict this in Matthew 25? Or am I mistaken?

That doesn't sound right
Rather, it was their rejection of Gods salvation.

Lk 19
41 As He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it [and the spiritual ignorance of its people], 42 saying, “If [only] you had known on this day [of salvation], even you, the things which make for peace [and on which peace depends]! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43 For a time [of siege] is coming when your enemies will put up a barricade [with pointed stakes] against you, and surround you [with armies] and hem you in on every side, 44 and they will level you to the ground, you [Jerusalem] and your children within you. They will not leave in you one stone on another, all because you did not [come progressively to] recognize [from observation and personal experience] the time of your visitation [when God was gracious toward you and offered you salvation].”

 

[jeffweeder]

Doesn't Jesus rule the nations with a rod of iron?

Rev 1
4 John, to the seven churches that are in [the province of] Asia: Grace [be granted] to you and peace [inner calm and spiritual well-being], from Him Who is [existing forever] and Who was [continually existing in the past] and Who is to come, and from the seven Spirits that are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the]faithful and trustworthy Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth.

 

[honeycomb]

Hmm. Okay. It says that he is carrying a bow. What does the bow represent?
Thanks. :)

Hi @CadyandZoe . . . This is the first seal—Deception —Satan imitating Jesus Christ. Satan’s bow is made of a cheap fabric (Strong’s Concordance #5115)—definitely not the beautiful Shekinah glory that will surround the true Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords when He comes at the 7th trump.

Jesus warns us in the book of Mark:

Mark 13:5
And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

PEtRA

 

[honeycomb]

and what did Jesus have to say about that?
I can't find anything but the end of the world.

Does this help?

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

- Revelation 20:1-6

 

[The Light]

The rider on that first white horse is none other than Satan (the AOD) pretending to be Jesus Christ.

No. The rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, a man.