The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 7 years are in Daniel 9:27.

The 1260 days testimony time of the two witnesses is in Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 (as Israel is fed the word of God)
The time, times, half time that Satan will have left is in Revelation 12:12-14.

I asked where what you are describing there is indicated in Daniel 9. What you're saying here (the last 2 lines) is not indicated at all in Daniel 9 anywhere. So, once again, you are dishonestly trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

 

[Douggg]

Total nonsense. Revelation 12 is not a chronological continuation from Revelation 11. That is obvious. It starts out by referring to Christ's birth and ascension which obviously did not follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

John is being shown different scenes throughout Revelation.

Revelation 12 starts out with a scene of the woman, clothed with the sun, the moon under feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars - signifying the woman as Israel.

Revelation 12:1-5. The first five verses are therefore about Satan's attempt to kill Jesus as soon as he was born. But failed. All back at the time of Jesus first coming.

Revelation 12:6 begins with the start of the 7 years leading up to Jesus's Second Coming. During that 7 years, Satan seeks to destroy the woman - Israel.

Revelation 12:6. For 1260 days that the woman is in state of being in a spiritual wilderness, i.e. unsaved. But she is being fed in that state of unbelief, the word of God by the two witnesses The 1260 days is the first half of the 7 years. And corresponds to the 1260 days that the two witnesses will prophesy in Revelation 11:3.

What they will be prophesying, as well as preaching the gospel, is that Israel's thought to be messiah - the Antichrist - will be betray them and the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Revelation 12:7-9. Satan will be cast down to earth, because his man, the Antichrist - turned beast - will have killed God's two witnesses. God at that point will have had enough of Satan's evil, and the seventh angel (remember the seven angels given trumpets are standing before God in heaven) is give the signal to sound his trumpet.

He sounds his trumpet, and Michael and his angels are told to go and carry out the mission of casting Satan and his angels down to earth. (Revelation 10:6-7, in the days of the seventh angel voice, the mystery of God well be finished. That mystery is God's plan to cease Satan and his angels from attempting to destroy His Creation).

In Revelation 11:15-18, when they hear the seventh angel sounding right there in heaven where they are, the 24 elders rejoice. Because they know what is coming. In Revelation 11:18, and the 24 elsers say, referring to God taking up His great power to act...... "and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth", God's creation. It is talking about Satan and his angel as being the destroyers, and with the seventh angel sounding, the time has come God to destroy them. The 24 elders rejoice.

And when the seventh angel sounds, the 24 elders also say in Revelation 11:18... "and thy wrath is come". Which will be carried out in the 7 vials of God's wrath to begin being poured out.

Revelation 12:14 is the time, times, have time that Satan will have left, once cast down to earth. In Revelation 12:14, the woman flees into the literal wilderness, the mountains in Israel, to be protected from the face of the serpent - Satan.

Remember Revelation 12 entails Satan's attempt to destroy the woman, Israel.

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So, while Revelation is not in chronological order, I agree, but by using the timeframes given - the chronological order can be determined.

And can be communicated with timeline charts and tables - like mine, that you are so fond of.

 

[Douggg]

I asked where what you are describing there is indicated in Daniel 9. What you're saying here (the last 2 lines) is not indicated at all in Daniel 9 anywhere. So, once again, you are dishonestly trying to make scripture say what you want it to say.

I did not say that those two time-frames are in Daniel 9. But the 7 years they total to, is in Daniel 9:27.

 

[Douggg]

@Spiritual Israelite

In Revelation 9 are ...
fifth trumpet - first woe
second trumpet - second woe

I think you will agree to the above. But in the text of Revelation 9, the expression "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" is never mentioned.

Yet, in Revelation 12:12, Satan cast down to earth having great wrath, the expression "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" is found and stands out as...

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

.... and in spite of what the text says, you refuse to acknowledge it as the third woe of the 7th trumpet.

Also, can you not see the "Therefore rejoice, ye heaven, and ye that dwell in them", is the 24 elders in heaven in Revelation 11:15--18 rejoicing when they hear the seventh angel sound his trumpet ?

 

[CadyandZoe]

No
I has real names and events.
It does not qualify as a parable.

I see nothing in the story to suggest that the people mentioned are actual people.

 

[rwb]

No further delay to the finishing fulfillment of the mystery of God - as He declared to his servants the prophets. (verse 7)

What is that mystery ? God's plan to end Satan's efforts to destroy God's creation.

Revelation 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery hidden in ages past was that salvation according to grace through faith in Christ was now available to Gentiles as well as Jews, whosoever believes!

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ephesians 3:2-7 (KJV) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

The mystery of faith revealed as the Gospel is sent unto all the nations of the world would be to Gentiles also. When the fulness of the Gentiles to be saved have completed the Kingdom of God the 'days' of the seventh trumpet shall began to sound that the time given the Church to take the Gospel unto all the nations of the world shall be not longer. This time symbolized a thousand years will be ended and Satan shall be set free for a "little season". Once Satan has gathered together his Mighty army, the saints, both those dead and the living, shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible. Then the fire of God shall come down from heaven and Satan and his minions shall ALL be burned up.

This is why John writes of the seventh trumpet "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound".

 

[rwb]

What is that mystery ? God's plan to end Satan's efforts to destroy God's creation.

Satan's efforts to destroy God's creation was ended by Christ being obedient to death. Christ ended the power of Satan to hold man of faith in bondage to the power of death. This is how the cross of Christ spiritually bound Satan. Taking away his power to hold man of faith in bondage to fear of death means he is already the defeated foe.

Hebrews 2:13-18 (KJV) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I see nothing in the story to suggest that the people mentioned are actual people.

That's like saying "when the Bible says "peter" I see nothing to suggest that could possibly be an actual person.
A parable does not name the people in it.
Why?
Because it is fictitious .

But let's pretend it is a parable.
The message is the same.

 

[WPM]

The verse has nothing to do with any rapture timing.

How can it mean that time no longer exists if in the very next verse - "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel" ? "days" is a measure of time.

Revelation 10:
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Because it is the end of a recapitulation. Hello!

 

[WPM]

John is being shown different scenes throughout Revelation.

Revelation 12 starts out with a scene of the woman, clothed with the sun, the moon under feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars - signifying the woman as Israel.

Revelation 12:1-5. The first five verses are therefore about Satan's attempt to kill Jesus as soon as he was born. But failed. All back at the time of Jesus first coming.

Revelation 12:6 begins with the start of the 7 years leading up to Jesus's Second Coming. During that 7 years, Satan seeks to destroy the woman - Israel.

Revelation 12:6. For 1260 days that the woman is in state of being in a spiritual wilderness, i.e. unsaved. But she is being fed in that state of unbelief, the word of God by the two witnesses The 1260 days is the first half of the 7 years. And corresponds to the 1260 days that the two witnesses will prophesy in Revelation 11:3.

What they will be prophesying, as well as preaching the gospel, is that Israel's thought to be messiah - the Antichrist - will be betray them and the Mt. Sinai covenant.

Revelation 12:7-9. Satan will be cast down to earth, because his man, the Antichrist - turned beast - will have killed God's two witnesses. God at that point will have had enough of Satan's evil, and the seventh angel (remember the seven angels given trumpets are standing before God in heaven) is give the signal to sound his trumpet.

He sounds his trumpet, and Michael and his angels are told to go and carry out the mission of casting Satan and his angels down to earth. (Revelation 10:6-7, in the days of the seventh angel voice, the mystery of God well be finished. That mystery is God's plan to cease Satan and his angels from attempting to destroy His Creation).

In Revelation 11:15-18, when they hear the seventh angel sounding right there in heaven where they are, the 24 elders rejoice. Because they know what is coming. In Revelation 11:18, and the 24 elsers say, referring to God taking up His great power to act...... "and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth", God's creation. It is talking about Satan and his angel as being the destroyers, and with the seventh angel sounding, the time has come God to destroy them. The 24 elders rejoice.

And when the seventh angel sounds, the 24 elders also say in Revelation 11:18... "and thy wrath is come". Which will be carried out in the 7 vials of God's wrath to begin being poured out.

Revelation 12:14 is the time, times, have time that Satan will have left, once cast down to earth. In Revelation 12:14, the woman flees into the literal wilderness, the mountains in Israel, to be protected from the face of the serpent - Satan.

Remember Revelation 12 entails Satan's attempt to destroy the woman, Israel.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, while Revelation is not in chronological order, I agree, but by using the timeframes given - the chronological order can be determined.

And can be communicated with timeline charts and tables - like mine, that you are so fond of.



View attachment 49197

You totally butcher the context to fit Pretrib here. This is more evidence that you cannot let the Bible speak for itself. You twist, manipulate and butcher it at every turn. Pretrib hermeneutics are horrible.

 

[Douggg]

You totally butcher the context to fit Pretrib here.

So what in my post applied to the Pre-trib (pre-70th week) timing of the rapture ? I did not mention the rapture anywhere in my post.

 

[rebuilder 454]

4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.



They are considered worthy because they endure all persecution and crushing distress.
Nobody is considered worthy, so they can escape suffering.

There is no crown for having a erroneous postrib rapture doctrine..( actually pretending the AC does not kill all on the planet refusing the mark)
The baby Jesus, Lot and Noah were all gathered prejudgement.( how evil of Jesus to escape...God would have just protected him)
Is it shame on them for agreeing with heaven?

It is as if you despise the fact that worthiness is the basis of receiving crowns.
You have no idea what crowns are for.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You totally butcher the context to fit Pretrib here. This is more evidence that you cannot let the Bible speak for itself. You twist, manipulate and butcher it at every turn. Pretrib hermeneutics are horrible.

Just omit the pretrib rapture verses.
Oh wait...you do that already

 

[rebuilder 454]

i am a follower of the Post-Tribber the LORD Jesus Christ.

i continue to pray luke 21:36

It is an essential prayer for us who believe to escape temptation and sin and to stand before the LORD at His Coming.

The AC kills all refusing the mark.
That alone disqualifies any hope of running from cave to cave hoping to escape.

Ahem...no postrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

rebuilder 454 said:
The Christians left behind in the GT, are those that lost their zeal, intimacy, and first love.
Some are in habitual sin
They are not worthy.
Not ready
Not prepared.
That is Why "some pray" ( not postribbers) what Jesus said to pray;
" PRAY that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world and stand before the Son of God "
No postibber would ever pray that.
( escape and rapture are evil to those adherents)
Dear Lord open their eyes.

 

[rebuilder 454]

rebuilder 454 said:
The Christians left behind in the GT, are those that lost their zeal, intimacy, and first love.
Some are in habitual sin
They are not worthy.
Not ready
Not prepared.
That is Why "some pray" ( not postribbers) what Jesus said to pray;
" PRAY that you may be COUNTED WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world and stand before the Son of God "
No postibber would ever pray that.
( escape and rapture are evil to those adherents)
Dear Lord open their eyes.

It would be fake if a postribber prayed that. .

...and no red flags to them.
Woah

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did not say that those two time-frames are in Daniel 9. But the 7 years they total to, is in Daniel 9:27.

Stop the nonsense already. Nowhere in Daniel 9 do we see anything about the 1260 days testimony time of the two witnesses or the time, times, and half a time that Satan will have left.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just omit the pretrib rapture verses.
Oh wait...you do that already

There are no pretrib rapture verses. Stop your babbling and exegete some scripture for once.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see nothing in the story to suggest that the people mentioned are actual people.

LOL! Abraham and Moses aren't real people? Why include the detail of how many brothers the rich man had if it was a parable? What value would that add to a parable? That kind of detail would not be given in a parable. And since when did Jesus give names to people in a parable like Lazarus? LOL. You are so deceived.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite

In Revelation 9 are ...
fifth trumpet - first woe
second trumpet - second woe

I think you will agree to the above. But in the text of Revelation 9, the expression "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" is never mentioned.

So what? That means nothing. You foolishly twist and manipulate scripture to make it say what you want it to say. Your interpretation of Revelation 11:14 is a complete joke. It reveals your extreme doctrinal bias and foolishness.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.