The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

I didn't say that.

Don't deny it. You said my view was nonsense for no reason whatsoever. You simply reacted out of instinct and without knowledge.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you? Really? Who raised the subject of the Deity of Christ in this thread? WPM. And when he did, you and he set your course for character assassination. Don't deny it. And why do two or more people gang up on another person?

Awww. Poor little fella is feeling attacked. How sad. He expects us to cater to his heresy. So delusional.

The most common reason for character assassination is often rooted in the attacker’s own insecurities, fears, and feelings of inferiority. When someone feels threatened or exposed, they may attempt to deflect attention from their own flaws by attacking someone else’s character.

Do you feel inferior to me? Is that your motivation for attacking me?

Inferior to you? LOL!!!!! You should be a comedian for a living. You come up with some good ones.

In many cases, the attacker aims to damage the target’s reputation to gain social power, or protect their own image.
Do you attack me because, in your own mind, you seek the approval of "lurkers?"

No, I just like to inform people when someone can't be trusted. Anyone who denies the deity of Christ clearly is completely lacking in spiritual discernment and it's good for people to know about that. To know where you're coming from. It's why I also am informing people about another poster who undermines Paul's teachings so that people know the kind of mindset that person has. It's good to know.

This behavior is often seen in environments where competition and power dynamics are at play.
Check yourself. What do you want? What do you really want?

To expose you as the false teacher and heretic that you are who denies the deity of Christ. People should know about that.

Try a bit of self-reflection. And be careful who you follow.

I follow my God Jesus Christ who created the heavens and the earth.

You are incorrect. The Pharisees mistakenly believed that the Messiah would be an angel or a theophany. Since Jesus was a man, they accused Jesus of Blaspheme, claiming that he, a man, was the Messiah.

I'm not saying you believe everything exactly like them, I'm saying you deny who Jesus is like they did. Jesus not only claimed to be the Messiah, but claimed to be God. Blasphemy is when someone claims to be God when they are not. The Pharisees knew that scripture said the Messiah would be "called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6), so anyone claiming to be the Messiah was also claiming to be "the mighty God".

Only orthodox Christians affirm orthodoxy, not because it is truth, but because it is the price of membership.

Anyone with a fourth grade education can read Revelation 20 to discover John's teaching that there will exist a thousand year period between the first resurrection and the second death.

LOL. You are a clown. Acting like a passage within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture should be read in a straightforward way like a fourth grader would. Why is it that you read Revelation 20 in such a way that blatantly contradicts what Jesus taught which anyone with a fourth grade education can understand?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus taught that all of the dead would be resurrected in the same hour, so why are you having some of the dead being resurrected 1,000+ years after the rest? Did your fourth grade teacher teach you that kind of nonsense? Did your fourth grade teacher teach you to ignore context? Did your fourth grade teacher teach you that paying attention to the genre and type of text you were reading didn't matter and that you should just read it all literally all the time regardless?

 

[WPM]

Why? Will you change your mind? No? Is it because you didn't come to your view though reasons? It is because you came to your view for religious reasons instead of good reasons?

Please do not talk on my behalf. You do not know me. You have never been able to support Premil.

When I asked for evidence to support Premil you resorted to ad hominem. That is all you have. You have no answer to the truth.

 

[WPM]

Don't deny it. You said my view was nonsense for no reason whatsoever. You simply reacted out of instinct and without knowledge.

You are a heretic. Scripture instructs us to admonish you. You have nothing to bring to the table.

 

[Berean]

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Spiritual Israelite? You must be of the anointed

 

[WPM]

Spiritual Israelite? You must be of the anointed

What do you mean by this?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I follow my God Jesus Christ who created the heavens and the earth.

From my perspective, you are a follower of WPM.

I'm not saying you believe everything exactly like them, I'm saying you deny who Jesus is like they did.

And I said that you are incorrect. Contrary to your mistaken view, the Pharisees accused Jesus of blaspheming because he, being a man, claimed to be the son of God. In other words, Jesus wasn't claiming to be deity as you suppose.

Jesus not only claimed to be the Messiah, but claimed to be God. Blasphemy is when someone claims to be God when they are not. The Pharisees knew that scripture said the Messiah would be "called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6), so anyone claiming to be the Messiah was also claiming to be "the mighty God".

That is all true, but Jesus never claimed to be a deity. Jesus was God by identity, not ontology. My argument isn't with the Bible. My argument is with the Council of Nicaea.

LOL. You are a clown.

More insults. Typical.

Acting like a passage within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture should be read in a straightforward way like a fourth grader would.

A fourth grader can tell the difference between symbolic language and literal description. The Amillennial doctrine forces a passage that is intended to be taken literally to read as symbolic language.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus taught that all of the dead would be resurrected in the same hour, so why are you having some of the dead being resurrected 1,000+ years after the rest?

The proverbial fourth grader doesn't know how to misconstrue one passage to fit a misunderstanding of another passage as you have done. You didn't quote the beginning of the passage, where Jesus talks about the rapture, which Revelation 20 calls the first resurrection.

John 5:25-27
Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

The Amillennial doctrine completely misses this aspect of Jesus' second coming. In Luke 17, Jesus refers to the millennial period as "the days of the son of man." Have you never heard about the days of the son of man?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Please do not talk on my behalf.

Have you never read, "Treat others the same way you want them to treat you." Luke 6:31

You have never been able to support Premil.

It isn't difficult. Simply read Revelation 20, the way it was intended.

When I asked for evidence to support Premil you resorted to ad hominem.

I believe you are thinking of yourself.

That is all you have. You have no answer to the truth.

You argue without understanding.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are a heretic. Scripture instructs us to admonish you. You have nothing to bring to the table.

I know. I own it. I am a heretic in your view. But as I say, a heretic is nothing more than a person who contradicts orthodoxy. And what is orthodoxy, if not dogma, enforced by an army? You believe a dogma that came from the Catholic Church. Why would you do that without question?

You might spend some time informing yourself of the facts.

 

[rwb]

It isn't difficult. Simply read Revelation 20, the way it was intended.

That's a problem for Premil! All you have is Rev 20, and even this chapter doesn't support Premillennialism without forcing contradictions into the Word of God. Contradictions and inconsistencies may be accepted by Premils, but serious students of the Word of God will not accept a doctrine that cannot be reconciled with ALL of the Word of God.

 

[rwb]

What do you mean by this?

I wonder what is meant by the comment also???

 

[rebuilder 454]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not meant to be taken literally. Jesus is telling a parable based on Hebrew mythology about Hades. The parable is set in a fictional place called Abraham's bosom, which is not a real place. It's important to understand that Jesus didn't actually preach to those in Hades.

Nope
Does not Meet the criteria of a parable

Not only that, we see Jesus went down into the Earth and preached to the patriarchs.
A parable does not use names, because it is a story within a story.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's a problem for Premil! All you have is Rev 20, and even this chapter doesn't support Premillennialism without forcing contradictions into the Word of God. Contradictions and inconsistencies may be accepted by Premils, but serious students of the Word of God will not accept a doctrine that cannot be reconciled with ALL of the Word of God.

I see no contradictions. I see two resurrections with 1000 years in between.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Nope
Does not Meet the criteria of a parable

What criteria? A story is a story.

Not only that, we see Jesus went down into the Earth and preached to the patriarchs.

Jesus didn't go down into the earth to preach to the patriarchs.

A parable does not use names, because it is a story within a story.

Who said that a parable doesn't use names?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite? You must be of the anointed

What are you talking about exactly? The name comes from passages like these:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility....19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

From my perspective, you are a follower of WPM.

LOL!!! Wrong. We do agree on a lot, though. Are you jealous? Do you wish someone agreed with you? No one does. I get my end times doctrine directly from scripture and so does he.

Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

The Amillennial doctrine completely misses this aspect of Jesus' second coming. In Luke 17, Jesus refers to the millennial period as "the days of the son of man." Have you never heard about the days of the son of man?

Have you never heard about context?

Luke 17:22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

In context, the days of the Son of man referred to the days leading up to His second coming. Jesus compared the days leading up to the flood in Noah's day and the days leading up to Sodom being destroyed by fire in Lot's day to "the days of the Son of Man" that lead up to "the day the Son of Man is revealed".

So, your claim that "the days of the Son of Man" refer to the thousand years time period is clearly false. You apparently didn't bother reading beyond verse 22 to see the context of that verse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What criteria? A story is a story.

Jesus didn't go down into the earth to preach to the patriarchs.

Who said that a parable doesn't use names?

If Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, then it's a true parable/story unlike the made up parables/stories that Jesus otherwise told. Regardless of what you want to call it, Luke 16:19-31 is about real people (Lazarus, the rich man, Abraham, Moses) in real places (One called "Abraham's bosom" and the other called hell or hades).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you mean by this?

It means I'm of the anointed.



I have no idea what he meant.

 

[WPM]

I see no contradictions. I see two resurrections with 1000 years in between.

Where else do you get that?

 

[MA2444]

Where else do you get that?

I dont remember off the top of my head the refrence but he is correct. Because people will die during the Millenium. Not many and not young unless they are cursed. That's what scripture says.

So they would have to be raised up at the last.