The absurdity of Pretrib logic

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

jeffweeder

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2007
1,272
1,065
113
61
South Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
True, but what would it mean for him to rule over all the nations IF, the judgment took place right away?
Neither Matt 24 or 25 say anything about him ruling over the nations. Its all about mourning in anticipation of judgment - Imo.
Yes. In Matthew 24, Jesus says that they will see the sign of the Son of Man, which is Jesus coming on the clouds. We know from Daniel 7, this includes the Son of Man receiving dominion over all the nations.
I am of the opinion that Dan 7 is about the Son being presented to the Father after his victory on the cross.

“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.


And the gates of hell will never overcome it.

Rev 1
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Lets not go off topic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
3,760
339
83
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States



Notice, no Pretrib or Premil will address this! I wonder why?
Oh. It's been addressed. You wonder why is the question.

However, the playbook of those that think that they have replaced Israel is deny, deny, deny. Deny that the Word of God totally is contrary to their beliefs even though it absolutely is.

You can't even show your rapture in the book of Revelation? Oh it's there somewhere, is the claim, but you can never supply any scripture.

I wonder why?
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,457
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
`What do you mean by physical ? That they can be seen ? Satan is an angel. Do you think that angels can be seen, like Daniel saw Gabriel in Daniel 9. Yes, it is possible that Satan can be seen.

Ezekiel 28:.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

And what do mean by "his minions" ? The third of the angels that rebelled with Satan can be seen. Evil spirits cannot be seen.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,715
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
From
Foundationoflife.com

"The only way Amillennialism can be accepted and perpetuated is by persuading Christian disciples through indoctrination in church or cemetery, I mean seminary. I repeat, believers would never see Amillennialism or accept it by merely reading/studying their Bibles. However, once disciples accept the idea that Amillennialism is unquestionable orthodoxy their studies of the scriptures will naturally be tainted and biased by their acceptance of this false doctrine; in other words, they’ll read the scriptures pre-supposing Amillennialism to be true, not freely or at face value, as is natural."

We can see the futility of any meaninful or thoughtful conversation with those indoctrinated in their amil doctrine.

Lord have mercy.
Figures that someone who believes in a fictional doctrine would quote from a non-existent website. Did you mean Foundationofnonsense.com?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,715
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Really? And you are yet to show one prooftext for Pretrib. I rest my case!
Still waiting for any of them to exegete scripture for the first time in their lives. I'm not very hopeful it will ever happen. I declare Amils the winner of this debate by TKO.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,457
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you try to impute something into Revelation 20 that is unknown to the text itself, enjoys zero support elsewhere in Scripture,
What ? Revelation 20:4-6 has the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, who did not worship the beast, nor his image, nor took his mark. Those three things are found in other parts of Revelation.

The beast reigns 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 20 is not a parallel as you are claiming. Revelation 20 is a continuation of Revelation 19:11-20, Jesus's Second Coming.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
3,457
263
83
76
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Still waiting for any of them to exegete scripture for the first time in their lives. I
So why don't you exegete Ezekiel 39 ? Ezekiel 39 disproves the Amil doctrine of the immediate destruction of this present earth at Jesus's Second Coming.

Ezekiel 39:

Verses 1-16 is the Gog/Magog event, and the 7 years that follow, of which Israel buries the dead of Gog's army for 7 months.

The 7years that follow the destruction of Gog's army are the same 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

Verses 17-20 is the Armageddon event at the end of the 7 years.

Verses 21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth, His Second Coming.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,715
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I came here to dispute WPM's assumptions, which are not true and have no bearing on the subject.
Well, you have failed miserably in what you came here to do then.

I didn't fail to prove my point; I failed to convince you. Try to avoid speaking for other people.
You have failed to convince anyone. You have no authority on a Christian forum intended for Christians which are people who believe that Jesus is God.

I am here to refute pretrib, not bring new things to the table. You are here to try to waste everyone's time.
So, now you admit that you are debating pretribs rather than teaching lurkers.
I'm doing both. Ever heard of multitasking?

Yes, I deny the deity of Christ for several reasons. I defended my beliefs on this forum many years ago, but I haven't discussed them since. If the board or the forum wishes me to discuss the subject further I will.
It exposes you for the fraud that you are. Scripture repeatedly teaches that Jesus is God. It is a fundamental belief of Christianity. Do you believe that anyone but God should be worshiped? Do you think anyone but God could have all power and authority in heaven and earth?

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

In the meantime, rather than discussing your argument's lack of substance, you have chosen to attack me personally.
I am attacking your beliefs and the fact that you are a false teacher trying to worm your way in on a Christian forum with your non-Christian beliefs.

Ad hominem attacks are often used to divert attention from the actual issue and undermine your opponent's credibility. I'm not surprised that WPM takes this course, but I expect more from you, since you are a reasonable man with good ideas.
I have shared my understanding of scripture extensively on this forum and you know it. I am not diverting attention from anything. I am drawing attention to the fact that no one can trust anything you say.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,159
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh. It's been addressed. You wonder why is the question.

However, the playbook of those that think that they have replaced Israel is deny, deny, deny. Deny that the Word of God totally is contrary to their beliefs even though it absolutely is.

You can't even show your rapture in the book of Revelation? Oh it's there somewhere, is the claim, but you can never supply any scripture.

I wonder why?
This is all noise. That is all you have. It is time to bring Scripture to the table or admit you expound false teaching.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,715
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh, ok, exposing your denial of the deity of Christ is ad hominem? Yea right! It is a fact. That makes you a heretic!

And, no, you have not exposed any errors in the Op re the absurdity of Pretrib logic.

Are you Pretrib? if not, what do you believe?
He doesn't like us exposing his heresy to everyone. Are we supposed to apologize for that? He seems to think so. Not going to happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WPM

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,159
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So why don't you exegete Ezekiel 39 ? Ezekiel 39 disproves the Amil doctrine of the immediate destruction of this present earth at Jesus's Second Coming.

Ezekiel 39:

Verses 1-16 is the Gog/Magog event, and the 7 years that follow, of which Israel buries the dead of Gog's army for 7 months.

The 7years that follow the destruction of Gog's army are the same 7 years of Daniel 9:27.

Verses 17-20 is the Armageddon event at the end of the 7 years.

Verses 21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth, His Second Coming.
This is really starting to get old.

Where is a rapture of the Church mentioned in Ezekiel 39?
Where is a 7 trib in Ezekiel 39?
Where is your 3rd coming in Ezekiel 39?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,715
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So why don't you exegete Ezekiel 39 ?
You're asking me to do that even though you haven't even done it yourself. How nice. I have exegeted many scriptures and you know that. How many have you exegeted? None. So, I'll make you a deal. If you exegete Matthew 24:3-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 or 2 Peter 3:3-13, then I will exegete Ezekiel 39. This might be the only way I can actually get you to exegete something for once, so I'm giving it a shot.
 

WPM

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2022
8,509
4,159
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What ? Revelation 20:4-6 has the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints, who did not worship the beast, nor his image, nor took his mark. Those three things are found in other parts of Revelation.

The beast reigns 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 20 is not a parallel as you are claiming. Revelation 20 is a continuation of Revelation 19:11-20, Jesus's Second Coming.
Revelation 17:8 states, The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

This passage strongly shows that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

Revelation 17:11-13 further enlarges, the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

A plain reading of these passages proves that, whatever the beast truly represents, he/it was expressly in existence before the time that John received this symbolic revelation. The beast cannot therefore merely be a last few years end-time phenomenon, as some would have us believe. After all, he existed before John wrote Revelation. We learn through the apostle’s first century testimony that the beast expressly “was” (past tense). In fact, the passage mentions this fact three times (twice in verse 8, and once in verse 11). Therefore, he existed before John. He also existed at the time of John – who said of his day, the beast “is” (present tense). John then explained that the beast would continue after his day, saying it “shall” be (future tense). In fact, Scripture tells us that the beast, and the false prophet, will only finally be destroyed at the all-consummating second coming of the Lord, where they will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). Why would this world system be destroyed at Christ’s coming and then re-emerge in a future millennium as the sand of the sea?

Having said all this, the terminology that follows is strange and appears contradictory, saying, “is not, and yet is.” One could naturally be tempted to reason: the beast either is or else it isn’t, although, this reading plainly says that the beast both “is” and “is not” at the same time. Whilst the import of the reading indicates that the beast existed in John’s day, it would seem to suggest that it did so in a restrained or restricted manner. How else can we marry the two facts that the beast “is” and “is not” at the same time. The system represented by the beast must have been around in John’s day, albeit in a curtailed manner – a bit like a prisoner that has full movement within a prison, although, he is restricted to particular areas at given times and must continually abide by the careful rules and guidelines that govern his movements within the penitentiary. He has freedom – to a degree, but in another hand he is not free to do as he wishes. The bottom line is: the prisoner would be viewed by every sane observer as bound.

The beast “was” because Satan and his kingdom operated long before Christ ever invaded his territory at the first Advent. He is deemed “is not” because, through Christ's successful completion of His Father’s assignment on earth He roundly defeated Satan in his own backyard and spiritually spoiled his goods and influence. Christ instigated the great triumphant global advance upon the kingdom of darkness. This has inflicted great injury and damage upon the antichrist spirit for near 2,000 years. Christ went forth conquering and to conquer through the successful spread of the Gospel to the nations. The fact is the gates of hell can never prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ.

The beast “is not” because Satan and the beast no longer exercises complete unchallenged control over the nations as he once did before the cross. Revelation 13:1-4 shows that at some stage in history one of the beast’s heads were “wounded” thus incapacitating this evil ogre. This can only refer to the cross and Christ’s great victory over the kingdom of darkness. This transaction placed chains upon the rebellious principalities and powers which remain until Satan’s little season.

The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,715
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I take a more straightforward approach to Revelation 20, wherein John depicts two resurrections of the dead. In the passage below, please take a look at the two different mentions of people coming back to life and the fact that each occasion when a group of people comes back to life is separated by a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life [first resurrection] and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life [second resurrection] until the thousand years were completed.
Some of the dead came back to life in verse 4, the rest of humanity came back to life in verse 5.
So, you have no thoughts at all on what I said about Revelation 20:6? A one way discussion is what you're looking for?

Tell me why the Greek word "zao" is used in reference to those who "lived" and reigned with Christ in verse 4, while the Greek word "anazao" is used in reference to those who "come to life" in verse 5? Are you aware that the Greek word "zao" is not a word that means to come to life while the word "anazao" is? The word "zao" means to be alive and to live life. It is talking about the souls of those who have spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection, which scripture explicitly teaches is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5), reigning with Jesus in heaven since His ascension.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,352
14,793
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Good points.

I think it's important to consider the case of Lazarus and others whom Jesus and the apostles brought back to life. These individuals were resurrected before Jesus, so why do passages such as Acts 26:23 say that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead? The distinction between Lazarus's resurrection and Jesus's is that Jesus was glorified, whereas Lazarus was not. Jesus was the first to experience glorification, which is a permanent transformation.

Resurrect means to restore a life of or in a thing, that the thing resume Living.

Human body’s have it’s LIFE…BLOOD

All souls belong to God, it’s LIFE…IS Gods BREATH…once entered INTO a human body…that body’s…
* senses for communication are activated…
…ears hear
…eyes see
…nose smells
…mouth utters sounds
…tongue tastes
…flesh feels touch
* all souls are identified with the name the body is given (or assumes as its identity).

( When the BODY dies…the LIVING SOUL departs out of the BODY..
Thus the Dead body, can no longer: see, hear, smell, speak, taste, feel touch).

ManKind has control over Life of the Body…
A man can kill his own bodily life.
A man can kill an others bodily life.

God has control over His “souls”.
Once Gods enters His Breath INTO a soul, that soul Remains LIVING (whether IN a living body or departed out of a Dead Body), Until such time Gods Himself removes His Breath (Life) out of a soul.


For the last 2,000 + years, “IF” that soul was “SAVED” (via Jesus’ Offering, and a mans Acceptance)…that Living soul Goes to Heaven, to Rest In Peace, waiting for Judgement Day, and reunion with its raised glorified body.

For the preceding 4,000 years (Before Jesus was revealed on Earth)…Souls that departed Dead Body’s….Saved or Not…ALL went to the “underworld”…”broadly called hell”.

Hell Had (if now or not IDK) a division of a great gulf…Saved souls on one side…Unsaved souls on the other side.
(No option or ability for either to cross over the gulf).

Point being…NO departed (from dead bodys) souls WERE “resurrected”…
(Ie RISEN UP to Heaven….)

UNTIL AFTER, Jesus’ SOUL was Risen UP.

Thus it is Factually Correct, Jesus’ SOUL was the FIRST to be Resurrected…Returning to from whence it came.

And that parallels…the scripture that Jesus is First / Before ALL things. Col 1:17

Hope that helps.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
3,760
339
83
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The word "advent" does not appear in the bible.

Neither does the word "rapture"
Matthew 24:

30a And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
(sixth seal event)
Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We can tell that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus comes. He remains in the clouds. There is a harvest when He sends His angels to gather elect.

How do you think that the great multitude is in heaven some of which come out of great tribulation? Easy................the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

30b and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(Revelation 11-21, Jesus's Second Coming)
Oh no. This happens at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds.........There is a harvest and world is cast into the one-year wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.


17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
10,715
4,423
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
True, but what would it mean for him to rule over all the nations IF, the judgment took place right away?

Yes. In Matthew 24, Jesus says that they will see the sign of the Son of Man, which is Jesus coming on the clouds. We know from Daniel 7, this includes the Son of Man receiving dominion over all the nations.

Daniel 7:14
And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

The key phrase here, for our discussion, is "under the whole heaven," which refers to the entire planet. Yes?
He rules over all nations now, but just not in the way you think He is supposed to do so.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Daniel 7:13-14 refers to His ascension.

Notice the similarities in the following passages:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

These passages are very clearly referring to the same event, which was His ascension to the right hand of the Father (Ancient of Days) in heaven.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.